Is there a Biblical form of Government for the nations?

[Covenanter]

From another thread:

Communism in a church is not a problem??? So you have no problem with President Obama's Trinity United Church of Christ??? No problem with the Westboro Baptists???

The Gospel and Communism are incompatible and vehemently opposed to one another. Karl Marx, a satanist, specifically wrote Das Kapital to separate man from God.

Are our brethren in communist countries under an essentially evil government system, so that we cannot encourage them to take Paul's advice?
Rom. 13:¹Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
²Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
³For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
⁴For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
⁵Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.


There was voluntary Christian communism in the early church:
[i[Acts 2:⁴⁴And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
⁴⁵And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

And Paul encourages sharing of wealth:
1 Tim. 6:¹⁷Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
¹⁸That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
¹⁹Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Please do not reply with the evident evils & oppression of the so-called communist regimes - they are totalitarian, & NOT communist - they are not concerned with the common people.

The dangers & duties of a kingdom are stated in Scripture:
Deu. 17:¹⁴When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
¹⁵Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
¹⁶But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
¹⁷Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
¹⁸And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
¹⁹And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
²⁰That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

Church government could be extended to the nation, as a system of elders & deacons, or ministers & civil servants, elected, but with a responsibility to the whole country, not just the majority that elected it. That's where imposing elections on a country like Iraq has its dangers - the majority party dominates & oppresses the minorities. The Tamil minority in Sri Lanka has no rights under the Sinhalese government.

Any ideas? Our governments need good advice - what should they counsel for Libya & the many countries that elect a dictator?

Biblical communism & church government suggest a pattern.

[John81]

There was no "biblical communism". The early Believers shared freely with one another as they walked in the Spirit. Communism is about forced "sharing" and the attempt to force all to be alike.

The biblical model for the best government is the one that follows the Word of God. Since we don't have Christian nations, this won't happen. Even Israel revolted against the idea of following God directly and demanded a king. If, and when, the king followed God, obeying His Word, there was blessing, but when a king turned from God the blessing was removed.

Considering the vast majority of people on the planet are not Christians we certainly can't expect they will adopt a biblical form of government. We've seen several decades of failed attempts to force "democracy" on various countries around the world. We need to remember that democracy is a man-made form of government, and therefore imperfect. The American Founders considered democracy to be the worst form of government, which is why they chose to form a Republic, but were yet unable to put forth necessary safeguards to keep it a Republic.

Were the people of Libya, or any other country, Christian, they should set forth a government designed to follow the Word of God. Of course this isn't the case so each country should establish whatever form of government they think will work best for them.

The main problem comes about when countries try to force their view of government upon others, whether it be communistic or democracy.

As long as the people are lost whatever government they have will be an evil one no matter what title it carries.

The first quote from Paul, just for the record, isn't advice, it's a command.

[JerryNumbers]

I still find not one thing in the New Testament where Jesus or the word of God says anything about His followers rebelling against the government at that time, & the government at that time was the wicked government that hung Him on the cross while He committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously & asking His Father to forgive them; for they know not what they do.

[Wilchbla]

The argument is that when a power becomes a terror to good works and not to evil works then it is our duty by God to rebel. This was the position of the Founding Fathers.

[Seth Doty]

The argument is that when a power becomes a terror to good works and not to evil works then it is our duty by God to rebel. This was the position of the Founding Fathers.

That would be a tough argument to defend from scripture, there are far more examples of governmental persecution of believers in the scriptures than there are of governments simply being a "terror to evil". There are only a small number of cases of believers rebelling against such governments and in the cases where they did it was virtually always a rebellion against foreign occupation. After all even David in the OT refused to violently take control from or kill Saul though God had already clearly said that he had rejected Saul from being king and had given the throne to David. You would think if anyone had a just cause to over throw his government it would have been David. God had basically declared Sauls government to be illegitimate and on top of that Saul kept trying to kill him even though he had always been totally faithful. To be honest I don't fully understand the position David took. Can't say it would have been a position I would have taken if I was in his shoes. Apparently his was the right, or at the very least not a wrong decision though. Edited September 11, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Covenanter]

What commands are we given when the ruler becomes a terror to good works? There are many nations where the government has become a terror to Christian believers.

Our governments pick & choose, depending on their ability to intervene successfully, & the economic importance of the countries in question. In Iraq Christians were more free under Saddam Hussein, than under the US puppet elected government. The young Bush thought he could finish the job his father wisely left. Control was better than war.

Burma, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan,China, & many more, persecute Christians & other minorities - they are a terror to good works.

Jesus commanded:
Mat. 5:⁴⁴But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
⁴⁵That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Then, perhaps, our enemies become our brothers & sisters in Christ.

[John81]

Rome was an evil government which persecuted Christians. The Bible tells us that rebellion is sin. Christians are commanded to pray for all governmental leaders, to live for Christ and spread the Gospel. The Founders of the USA were mere humans, most of which had questionable understanding of Chrsitianity. There is no justification in Scripture for a Christian to rebel against their government. It is not for the Christian to fight to establish a certain government or leader, but to pray for such and trust God with this. As Scripture says, it's God who establishes and removes governmental leaders.

For the Christian, we are to be about the Father's business, building the kingdom of God, not those of man. As Jesus said, His kingdom is not of this world or His followers would fight.

[Calvary]

Calvin tried to force a "christian govt." and wound up burning people at the state. You cannot legislate morality. The only truly Godly Govt will be when Jesus reigns from the throne of David in Jerusalem and rules with a rod of iron.

[John81]

Calvin tried to force a "christian govt." and wound up burning people at the state. You cannot legislate morality. The only truly Godly Govt will be when Jesus reigns from the throne of David in Jerusalem and rules with a rod of iron.

I agree with everything except your small sentence "You cannot legislate morality". Morality can, and is, legislated. What can't be legislated in the changing of hearts to adopt the legislated morality.

It's "legislated morality" that it's illegal to shoplift and many won't commit that crime for fear of being caught yet in their heart they want to, and given a situation such as during a riot, major disaster or something, they will rob a store because their heart hasn't been, and can't be changed by legislation.

Until Christ establishes His kingdom, all governments on earth will be corrupt, evil and serving the devil.

[JerryNumbers]

Rome was an evil government which persecuted Christians. The Bible tells us that rebellion is sin. Christians are commanded to pray for all governmental leaders, to live for Christ and spread the Gospel. The Founders of the USA were mere humans, most of which had questionable understanding of Chrsitianity. There is no justification in Scripture for a Christian to rebel against their government. It is not for the Christian to fight to establish a certain government or leader, but to pray for such and trust God with this. As Scripture says, it's God who establishes and removes governmental leaders. For the Christian, we are to be about the Father's business, building the kingdom of God, not those of man. As Jesus said, His kingdom is not of this world or His followers would fight.

So true, yet people want everything in their favor, & go to the law for that cause, instead of being about the works given to them by the Father.

[JerryNumbers]

I agree with everything except your small sentence "You cannot legislate morality". Morality can, and is, legislated. What can't be legislated in the changing of hearts to adopt the legislated morality.

It's "legislated morality" that it's illegal to shoplift and many won't commit that crime for fear of being caught yet in their heart they want to, and given a situation such as during a riot, major disaster or something, they will rob a store because their heart hasn't been, and can't be changed by legislation.

Until Christ establishes His kingdom, all governments on earth will be corrupt, evil and serving the devil.

And until Christ's Kingdom comes men will find excuse to overthrow worldly governments & claim to do so with God's will, & many will follow them & or give their blessing hoping for gain.

[Wilchbla]

What commands are we given when the ruler becomes a terror to good works? There are many nations where the government has become a terror to Christian believers.

Yes, there are nations that are a terror to Christians. Yet even in these nations the government usually still follows the rule of Romans 13:1-4. I think though, that a nation can become so upside down that it replaces evil for good and good for evil. Example would be Israel before they were destroyed by the Babylonians.

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

As I see it the temptation for Christians (especially early Christians) would have been to set up an earthly kingdom in the name of Christ or to turn the church into the kingdom of heaven on earth which the Catholics and many Protestants atempted to do. Paul is saying to obey the government and not use the King of kings as an excuse to rebel and resist the powers that be. Our Lord himself taught that his kingdom wasn't of earth for if it was he followers would fight for him. I really don't believe that Paul's intention (under the inspiration of the Spirit of course) was to teach that we should just allow ourselves to be slaughtered by a wicked government and not try to protect our families and churches or ever seek to be ruled by a more just government. Just as we are told to submit to spiritual authorities (pastor, deacon) we are also allowed to oppose them if they fail at their ministry through sin. I think the same could be said of a government that fails it's ministry. Just as spiritual authorities have certain "qualifications" to be in the ministry I think the same could be said of earthly authorities. We wouldn't expect to obey an abusive and dictorial pastor what makes you think this is to be tolerated with the government. Especially if it lies in the power of the people to dispose of that government. Like Jesus said about the Sabbath, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath". I think the same can be said about the government over us. Man was not made for the government but government for man. The thing is that these governments usually don't go easy or without a hefty price. This is where a believer should count the cost whether it is worth it or not. This is where the danger of being entangled in the affairs of this life can slip in.

[HappyChristian]

The term "you can't legislate morality" simply means that you can't force morality by legislation. Yes, laws are in place to keep people form doing this or that - but the fact that people still do them shows that you can't legislate morality. Morality comes from within a person - and those who are moral won't commit immoral acts. Those who are ethical won't commit unethical acts. Those who do may suffer from punishment under the law (not always, because not all of our laws are moral or ethical, nor do all lawbreakers get punished). Thus, you cannot legislate morality.

If anyone is truly interested in the biblical basis for things like the American War for Independence, get hold of sermons preached by preachers of that time period. They just might teach a thing or two....

[JerryNumbers]

The Bible is better at giving us answers to what is right & or wrong than the words of some man. The RCC does that, putting more stock in what the fathers wrote about the Bible, than what the Bible actually states, so much so they have a church built by man that resembles not any of the churches found in the New Testament.

And no where does Jesus even hint at rebelling against the government that one happens to be under. But it is clear we should pray for those that are in authority, that things will go well for them so we can live a quite peaceful life. Sad, many professing Christians fail to live by those verses.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Its very plain, & easy to understand. Quite & peaceful leaves no room for rebelling against a government, Quite & peaceful is competel oppsite of rebelling & going to war, & the Bible tells us why wars come about.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Remember, God's way is not man's way, far from it. In fact God calls His people a peculiar people, because they are so much different than worldly people.

[HappyChristian]

I don't think anyone has forgotten that God's ways are not man's ways, Jerry8. And I do believe that if you read some of those sermons, you would be quite surprised how filled with scripture they are. Actually, the verse in Timothy that you quoted isn't complete...it's talking about praying for them...not quite on topic. However, it is truth that the king was not allowing the colonists to live quiet and peacable lives.

~~~~

It's quite interesting to me that folks say that our founders were wrong biblically (but, oh, aren't they reaping the reward of that, ahem, sin?), and yet agree that Daniel was right to rebel against the ruling of the king, to whom he should have been subject...I know, I know, that's OT, and it's not applicable because we are under grace (unless of course it fits someone's agenda). The principle is there, however.

And, lest we forget (which I think many have, or don't know, or plainly don't care), #1. The colonists tried every way possible to work things out peacefully with the king (and even many in the english parliament tried on the colonists' behalf). #2. The colonists had severed ties with Britain BEFORE any shots were fired. There is no where in scripture that in any way mandates that a group of people cannot separate themselves from the government and begin their own. There simply isn't (and let's be careful here....there are folks who try to proclaim the sin of "rebellion" of our forefathers, and yet state that the southern states were okay to secede [which they were, but you can't have it both ways]).

Covenanter, I would recommend that you read sermons preached by the pastors of old here in America...they had a good grasp of scripture and its teachings on liberty.