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PastorMatt

Where do we draw the line for IFB?

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4 hours ago, DaveW said:

Before it gets changed........

So you think people who have issues with the Baptist name yet agree in doctrine with Baptists have salvation correct?

Digging into why they have issues would be an interesting query.

Everyone I have ever spoken to personally about salvation, and there have been 100's in S E Indiana, that were other denominations, never agreed with the Baptist view salvation.

Never. Without exception.

So I find it very difficult to accept that anyone who would agree with Biblical salvation would have 'real' issues with the Baptist name.

Unless they came across some perverted Baptists that think works does go with salvation - and there are some.

Mennonite, Church of Christ, Church of God, Pentacostal, Christian, Wesleyan, Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, etc. - none agreed with the true Biblical doctrine of salvation that is normal Baptist doctrine. Some came close - but have always an issue with something

Hurry and copy Dave.

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I think it was NoNicolaitans that wrote something in the past about even IFB's teach a form of Replacement Theology.

So many do, and don't realize they do.  When it is pointed out that they do, they deny it being a form of Replacement Theology.  But it is whether they deny it or not.

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I admit, at times, to seriously considering dropping the IFB title, due to the poor name it has been given by some, preachers that are legalists, abusive and rule with an iron fist-I suspect most of us could name a few in that camp. However, I also realize that if that were the case, I'd have to drop the title of Christian, as well, because it has been so greatly perverted for the last...oh, 2000 years. So as I choose to continue to call myself a Christian, because TRUE biblical Christianity is right, so I have chosen to continue to call myself Independent Fundamental Baptist, because I believe in the meaning of the term(s), and hold to the heart of it. So instead of dropping the label, instead I choose to teach people what it means. I have a brief statement on our church website explaining what it is and did a tract that I pass out with gospel tracts, so people know WHO we are and WHY we are who we are.

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Until I joined this message board I had never even heard of the F part of IFB. I, and any other Independent Baptists I fellow shipped with simply described ourselves as Independent Baptists, I always thought and continue to think that this simple designation is all that is needed. I think that at this late date the term "Fundamental" has come to be associated with extremists, especially outside of Baptist or even Christian ranks.

I use the term IFB here on these boards simply because it seems that this is the term that has been used here historically. But as for myself, I think it is an unneeded and possibly even a confusing descriptive term, especially to those outside of Baptist ranks.

I will never drop the name, "Baptist" because I believe that the truth has, and still does, reside in Baptist ranks. I will also continue to use the term "Independent" in my every day life to describe what kind of Baptist I am. I believe that our designation as "Independent" is born out by Scriptural examples of how the Church That Jesus Built is to function.

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I, too, will never drop the IFB.

We are independent, separated from conferences and conventions where we would be governed by many who have never even stepped foot through our doors.

We are fundamental, in that, we hold to the fundamentals of the Christian faith; dismissing any doctrines that contradict what is written in the word of God.

We are Baptist, due to the fact that upon studying many other denominations, we find that they all lack in Biblical truths in one area or another.

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 8:52 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

Until I joined this message board I had never even heard of the F part of IFB. I, and any other Independent Baptists I fellow shipped with simply described ourselves as Independent Baptists, I always thought and continue to think that this simple designation is all that is needed. I think that at this late date the term "Fundamental" has come to be associated with extremists, especially outside of Baptist or even Christian ranks.

I use the term IFB here on these boards simply because it seems that this is the term that has been used here historically. But as for myself, I think it is an unneeded and possibly even a confusing descriptive term, especially to those outside of Baptist ranks.

I will never drop the name, "Baptist" because I believe that the truth has, and still does, reside in Baptist ranks. I will also continue to use the term "Independent" in my every day life to describe what kind of Baptist I am. I believe that our designation as "Independent" is born out by Scriptural examples of how the Church That Jesus Built is to function.

One of the reasons I have come to appreciate all the letters, including the "F", is because it gives me an oppotunity to explain it, and help others grow by helping their understanding. EVen though the fundamentals themselves seem to be slightly different for each group, that is why the "I" is there, as well.  

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10 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Can we draw the line with one gospel for jew and gentile? 

Oboy, you've done it now. Stirring the pot, lol.  

Actually I don't remember if it is here, but there sure are a lot who believe that the Jews had one gospel and when they rejected Christ, there was another gospel, mixed with works of the law, for the Hebrew believers, than later, an entirely different one for Gentile believers.

Here's my issue with that, one thing Simon Peter himself said, : "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts 15:8-11)

Peter very clearly tells us that the Lord gave the Holy Ghost to the Gentiles "even as he did unto us", (the same way), And put NO DIFFERENCE between us and them (NO Difference!!!), puirifying their hearts BY FAITH, (not the law and faith), Then he makes clear the law cannot be borne by the Jews nor the Gentiles, and both believers have been freed of that law. THEN...THEN: "We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY."  How can it be any clearer? Same salvation, ergo, same gospel. Period. No difference.  

So I am in agreement with you. But all amy not be.

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11 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Can we draw the line with one gospel for jew and gentile? 

Sure, let it be written.........is anyone writing this?

Actually I think the couple of folks who argued for that left this site quite a while ago.

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On 11/15/2016 at 8:58 AM, Ukulelemike said:

I admit, at times, to seriously considering dropping the IFB title, due to the poor name it has been given by some, preachers that are legalists, abusive and rule with an iron fist-I suspect most of us could name a few in that camp. However, I also realize that if that were the case, I'd have to drop the title of Christian, as well, because it has been so greatly perverted for the last...oh, 2000 years. So as I choose to continue to call myself a Christian, because TRUE biblical Christianity is right, so I have chosen to continue to call myself Independent Fundamental Baptist, because I believe in the meaning of the term(s), and hold to the heart of it. So instead of dropping the label, instead I choose to teach people what it means. I have a brief statement on our church website explaining what it is and did a tract that I pass out with gospel tracts, so people know WHO we are and WHY we are who we are.

I was saved in an Independent Baptist church so i will always hold that fact in my heart with gratitude. But the most important fundamentals I hold to are Jesus and the King James Bible so this is where my chief loyalty lies: if "IFB" were gone tomorrow, Jesus is all I need. Having said that, I would rather be in a good IFB church now, more than any other. But due to that highlighted above in one nearby IFB church and what I see as dubious practices of the next nearest church's pastor in another , there are no other IFB churches nearby. I am now in a SB church. But the pastor here preaches the Word, the people love God and each other, and are busy about God's work. The pastor and his wife live a blameless life, he rules his house well, none of his 5 kids are unruly and he treats everyone with respect.  I would say that one of the "limits" this board should have, as well as any sound church, is zero tolerance for vulgar language, abusive behavior, disrespect of Fundamental Baptist (Bible) doctrine, not being inordinately judgmental, and zero tolerance for teaching false doctrine such as Replacement Theology and Calvinism which are both dangerous IMO.

Edited by heartstrings

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Sometimes, when I read through the various threads on topics I am amazed at what I read.  For instance, the question of what is an IFB church, the thread began with some very interesting and straight forward response that caused me to stop and think and appreciate the answers.  But as the thread moved forward there were periods of time I felt like was watching a group of young children fight over one primary toy while all the other toys lay around them unused.

 

While there are squabbles about independent, or the meaning of fundamental or even what is a Baptist we miss the heart of the question. 

 

Listen carefully, you will see me write these things over and over, we believe in the autonomy of the Local New Testament Church this is a distinguishing mark of Baptist’s, pastor you run the church God has made you steward of as you believe God wants you to do.  This means you are i-n-d-e-p-e-n-d-e-n-t!  What you or I believe, or want has no bearing on the local New Testament Church being independent and autonomous.

 

Secondly, we are fundamental this means we believe in the very basics of Bible doctrine ie. Bible teaching the virgin birth, the inspiration and preservation of the word of God, salvation by grace through faith, Baptism by immersion, the death burial and resurrection of Christ, the premillennial return of Christ, the great white throne judgement, etc.  Listen you or I may not like, their music, their group of friends, what they read, who they support etc. The question is are they fundamental in their doctrine?

 

Are they Baptist is the real question?  There are many evangelical churches that preach the fundamentals (you may not want to hear that but it is true).  So the question would seem to be what defines a Baptist?  Find this answer and you will find the answer brother Matt asked in his original post.  If you do your study and research you will find that many of our forefathers practiced things we would consider heresy today I am not trying to impugn their character or their movements, it is just a fact because they were independent and autonomous they held to some weird doctrinal concepts.  But what made them Baptists were their distinctives.

 

The heart of the historical Baptist is different we hold to a set of distinctives that we would die for rather than change our position.  They are in no particular order the following.

1.    Infallibility, inspiration and preservation of the word of God.

2.    The autonomy of the local New Testament church

3.    The two ordinances given to the local New Testament church

4.    Soul Liberty

5.    The priesthood of the believer

6.    Only a baptized and regenerated membership (this disqualifies Calvinists who believe regeneration occurs before salvation)

7.    Separation of the local church from government intervention not separation of government from church intervention.

 

Historic Baptists have held to these distinctives and these distinctives are what set us apart from all other churches and their memberships.  I know we like to include the 1611 as a distinctive but really it cannot be, we may venerate it but our Baptist distinctives pre-date the King James Bible by hundreds of years.  We want to hold to our Anabaptist roots and rebaptizing plays a major role in our history none-the-less it is our distinctives that tell the story. 

 

Let me conclude with this thought, what is independent and what is fundamental will never be settle across Christendom but whether you are Baptist by historical standards that you can look at.  There has been a lot of discussion on open or closed communion in another thread, let me help you that is a Baptist distinctive and you can only stand one way and be in historical alignment with our forefathers.  I am not trying to create controversy because I can love all the brethren but when you tell me you are Baptist you need to hold to those things which have set us apart from others for hundreds of years, about two thousand I believe.   

 

          

 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 9:58 AM, Ukulelemike said:

I admit, at times, to seriously considering dropping the IFB title, due to the poor name it has been given by some, preachers that are legalists, abusive and rule with an iron fist-I suspect most of us could name a few in that camp. However, I also realize that if that were the case, I'd have to drop the title of Christian, as well, because it has been so greatly perverted for the last...oh, 2000 years. So as I choose to continue to call myself a Christian, because TRUE biblical Christianity is right, so I have chosen to continue to call myself Independent Fundamental Baptist, because I believe in the meaning of the term(s), and hold to the heart of it. So instead of dropping the label, instead I choose to teach people what it means. I have a brief statement on our church website explaining what it is and did a tract that I pass out with gospel tracts, so people know WHO we are and WHY we are who we are.

Where was I to not agree with this? :4_6_2v: To quote Dr. Ian Paisley, the world likes to refer to us as "funny-mental" people. Rainbows still belong to God too.

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On 5/26/2017 at 6:50 AM, heartstrings said:

"foundational" baptist

If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Psalm 11:3

I do like that word, 'Foundational" Had thought about changing our church name to Foundation Baptist Church, or possibly, Pillar and Ground Baptist Church. Maybe if we ever are able to get another building we can include a name change. Honestly, while Bible Baptist Church is alright, sometimes I think is evokes too much Ruckman in it, since many BBC's out there follow some Ruckman patterns.

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On 5/25/2017 at 2:14 PM, BaptistJonStewart said:

I don't mind if we change the name IFB to UCB (Unaffiliated Conservative Baptists). 

 

On 6/8/2017 at 10:52 AM, BaptistJonStewart said:

The word, fundamentalist, has taken a different definition nowadays as compared to the 1920s and 1930s. I don't see anything wrong with changing the movement to a different name with similar definitions.

We're all Independent Churches and Christians. Start using the UCB to describe yourself and encourage your church to uses it. (No one can or is going to stop you) Then see if other churches and people will be "moved" to use the title as well! "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." and all that.....

 

Jul.  O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father, and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I’ll no longer be a Capulet.         40
  Rom.  [Aside.]  Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?
  Jul.  ’Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not a Montague.
What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part         45
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes         50
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name;
And for that name, which is no part of thee,
Take all myself.
  Rom.        I take thee at thy word.
Call me but love, and I’ll be new baptiz’d;         55
Henceforth I never will be Romeo.
  Jul.  What man art thou, that, thus be-screen’d in night,
So stumblest on my counsel?
  Rom.        By a name
I know not how to tell thee who I am:         60
My name, dear saint, is hateful to myself,
Because it is an enemy to thee:
Had I it written, I would tear the word.
  Jul.  My ears have not yet drunk a hundred words
Of that tongue’s uttering, yet I know the sound:         65
Art thou not Romeo, and a Montague?
  Rom.  Neither, fair maid, if either thee dislike.
  Jul.  How cam’st thou hither, tell me, and wherefore?
Edited by John Young

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Once again we must consider how much of baptist doctrine can be done away with before one can no longer be called a baptist.

Independent is one thing, nut to recognise say, a cat, that creature must have the attributes of a cat.

It might be a lion, a tiger, a leopard, a burmese, a siamese - all different kinds of cats - but there are basic attributes that make it recognisably a cat.

A dog has many similar attributes, but by certain and specific attributes we can distinguish a dog from a cat.

There are two parts to being an independent baptist church:

Independent - there are many independent churches around and some of them even preach a majority of right doctrine. But that doesn't make them baptist.

Baptist - therr are specific attributes that make a church a baptist church.

Without those attributes they may be a gospel preaching independent church, but they are NOT and independent baptist church.

 

So how many of these attributes can be done away with before someone is no longer an independent baptist?

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I think the most important letter in "IFB" is the "F"

Hebrews 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

Romans 12

 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

James 1

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

Psalm 119:140

140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

 

I think a Baptist should  look to Jesus, "walk right, talk right" , "spit white" and hold to the King James Bible  :)

 

 

 

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Yes, but anyone can be independent and fundamental - this site is called Online BAPTIST for a reason.

If baptists stop being biblical, THEN I will stop being a baptist.

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