Jack Hyles

[irishman]

Having someone as a role model and being worshipful toward them are two different things. Let's not confuse the issue...

 

O boy, here we go again.

 

Do you love your hubby?

If so, do you like to do things for him to show how much you care?

If you do, do you wish to let others know what kind of man he is? etc.,

 

It sounds to me like you worship HIM!

 

WORSHIP, v.t.

1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

Thou shalt worship no other God. Exo 34.

2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

 

(Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English)

 

The "worship" you imply is to fall down prostrate before him, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing this with Bro. Hyles.

 

We have hashed this over before, and I see you stubbornly refuse to se the effects of maligning God's man.

 

have a good day!
 

[HappyChristian]

O boy, here we go again.

 

Do you love your hubby?

If so, do you like to do things for him to show how much you care?

If you do, do you wish to let others know what kind of man he is? etc.,

 

It sounds to me like you worship HIM!

 

WORSHIP, v.t.

1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

Thou shalt worship no other God. Exo 34.

2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

 

(Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English)

 

The "worship" you imply is to fall down prostrate before him, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing this with Bro. Hyles.

 

We have hashed this over before, and I see you stubbornly refuse to se the effects of maligning God's man.

 

have a good day!
 

Cut it out, Irish. All I did was make a statement that was absolute truth. I didn't apply it to anyone or anything.  

[Ukulelemike]

So it is ok to put Crimson Tide or the Bulldogs on my car, shirt, and lawn. Put a signed football on the mantle, a picture of Abraham Lincoln on a school wall ... but it's not ok, say, to make role models of faithful men of God?

I never said, nor implied, one should do any of these things, and the Lincoln thing is secular anyways, so they'll do as they please regardless of right or wrong. The problem here is not having someone as a role model who was a godly man-all men of God are imperfect, and we know that, and if you want to have Hyles as a role model, that's fine, though as was mentioned before, to many, Hyles is less a role model and more a false idol. When one claims that there were more saved on their 'big day', than on pentecost, and begins to refer to it as 'Hylescost", despite the lack of actual converts and changed lives bearing fruit; when one is idolized with a statue, when one is considered unreprovable and untouchable, that's not merely a role model, and really, its a pretty poor role model.

 

Should ANY 'man of God' ever be lifted up in such a manner? Would Paul have approved of someone building a statue of him? Or John, or Peter. Even the Lord forbade statuies to be made of Him-why would it be approved to build one of one of His servants? See, again, its not that Hyles demanded a statue, (that I am aware of), but that this is the way his people viewed him-THEY worshiped him, and he never reproved it-had he done so, they would have never thought to do such a thing. Had he reproved them for wearing buttons that proclaimed "100% Hyles", or the idea of a Hylescost, I might consider him a role model.

 

BY the way, let me say that I too have a small interest in the Hyles issue: it was under his preaching at a conference that I surrendered to preach. Oddly now, looking back at that very sermon he preached, called 'Publish It Not', I can clearly see his instruction to never publically reprove or take a stand against anything wicked a 'man of God' might do, which seemed to be his take on the subject.  So, it isn't as though I see no good that has come out of his work-even Judas did some good things, cast out devils and healed the sick and raised the dead with the rest of the seventy, yet that didn't excuse his betrayal of Christ. So, any good that came from Hyles' ministry doesnt automatically wipe away the wrongs he did, unless he repented. But as far as I can see, the statue of Hyles proclaims a lot of whether or not he accepted adoration from his people while alive, else they'd never have thought to do so.

 

1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

 

On the other hand earlier in the same book:

 

1 Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

 

1 Cor 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

 

I think Paul is saying that it's ok to follow people as they follow Christ. I do think that the principle was we shout more for a football game then we cheer a new christian coming forward to make a public profession ... and we'll put a picture of Huckabee on our lawn during election time but we'll criticize a statue of Bro. Hyles on the lawn of a soul winning college he may have helped found back in the 1970's. We make hero's in the world but not of men of God -as they follow Christ- I've seen the camp mentality. Whether it's Harold Sightler's camp or Hyles camp ... it's no small thing to distinguish between whether they are 1 Cor 11 or 1 Cor 1. But yeah, there was some preacher adoration "We love our preacher oh yes we do" as the song goes ... How do you like the preacher adoration in our churches? "I don't think he should have said that" "he was too loud" "he didn't preach hard enough" "he was too long" Part the the undercurrent was to keep HAC trained preachers from quitting after 2 years. There is a complete philosophy there and I'm not sure you can break it down without examining the whole picture.

 

No men should be heroes, because they are nothing without Christ. Make their ministries an example for your own, if necessary,  if the conditions are similar enough to do so, at least the good parts.  I'm not a HAC-trained preacher, or any other college, and have somehow managed to continue on in the pulpit for 11 years now without ever buoilding a statue to anyone. Currently, in fact, I am rather alone, my own pastor having pseed to glory, as well as another good preacher friend who was close by, and my pastor's son, a farily local preacher, has cut ties with me, I know not why, so somehow I am continuing on, not because I was well-trained in a college, and sang praises to my pastor, but because I believe its the right thing to do, because the Lord placed me there and its not my right to walk away. If someone needs to be brainwashed by a college by singing of their love for their pastor in order to keep them in the pulpit for more than two years, there's a deeper problem.

[Ukulelemike]

O boy, here we go again.

 

Do you love your hubby?

If so, do you like to do things for him to show how much you care?

If you do, do you wish to let others know what kind of man he is? etc.,

 

It sounds to me like you worship HIM!

 

WORSHIP, v.t.

1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

Thou shalt worship no other God. Exo 34.

2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

 

(Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English)

 

The "worship" you imply is to fall down prostrate before him, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing this with Bro. Hyles.

 

We have hashed this over before, and I see you stubbornly refuse to se the effects of maligning God's man.

 

have a good day!
 

Actually, the relationship between a husband and wife is a picture of Christ and His church, so yes, a wife should reverence her husband, and virtually worship him, for it completes that picture, Also so should a husband love and sacrifice himself for his wife, even if that sacrifice becomes a literal physical sacrifice of life, though more likely he should be a living sacrifice for her, as for Christ, and as well as leading her, to be a servant to her as Christ was to His church and His disciples. So yes, this analogy is correct.

 

However, the problem that came about with Hyles, is it seems that, had some people tried to do for him as some tried to do for Paul, when they wanted to make a sacrifice to him, I'm not sure Hyles would have resisted quite as hard as Paul did.

 

As a pastor and preacher, I believe the relationship between a pastor and his church should be one of respect, love and service one to another, though the service generally should be going forth from the pastor to the church.

 

Another term used for pastor is shepherd-in fact, it MEANS shepherd. I keep sheep and goats, and nothing has made me understand the relationship between Christ and His church, and the pastor and their church, as much as my time keeping herds.

 

As the shepherd, I own the flock-they are mine, my responsibility. Now, I have a right to receive something from the herd, be it milk, wool or meat. However, if all the effort come from the flock to meet my desires, soon there will be neither milk nor meat nor wool. 90% of the effort between sheep and shepherd is from the shepherd to the flock-I must feed them food that is right and healthy for them-I have to clean their woulns, see they have sufficient water, clean accomodations, give them companionship, occasionally chastise them, protect them from enemies, sometimes bottle-raise them. In the end, I get a little milk and wool, and occasionally some meat. But most of the effort is from my side, not theirs.  I can't expect the flock to see to all my needs, I must supply theirs.

 

But I see these pastors like Hyles and others like him of demanding the sheep serve him, when really, it is the other way around. Jesus is our example of this-they loved Jesus, but He served them. he met their needs, not the other way around. The only ones who have statues of Jesus are those who don't really know Him-if we should not have statues of Jesus, why would we build them to men? Even 'great' men?

[2T3:16]

Brainwashed? You don't think there is a place, biblically, for older preachers to lead the training of younger preachers? They train people to do the impossible and keep on in the face of defeat ... is it wrong that that is or was worked into the fabric of the way the school is or was run? You prefer a college that makes light of a students character and heart and is only interested in brain learning? You prefer a school that prefers academics over loving people and winning souls? Hyles-Anderson, in my opinion, IS OR WAS JACK HYLES TRAINING PREACHERS TO BE PREACHERS They have thrown celebrations for other preachers at the college while Jack Hyles was still alive ... you might disagree with that ... the encouragement was to appreciate living men of God, and some that were dead, not just specifically Jack Hyles.

 

note: we also need to remember that there were many flavors of those who appreciated Jack Hyles and his ministry, we are talking about a lot of people ... some were likely to have been unbiblical in their flavor of Hyles aprreciation, for lack of better words right now

[Salyan]

Brainwashed? You don't think there is a place, biblically, for older preachers to lead the training of younger preachers? They train people to do the impossible and keep on in the face of defeat ...

I thought it was God that did the impossible. Not people.

is it wrong that that is or was worked into the fabric of the way the school is or was run? You prefer a college that makes light of a students character and heart and is only interested in brain learning?

So Hyles-Anderson is a good place to go be trained in good character? Really. Who will do the training? Joseph Combs? Or Jack Schaap? Maybe A. V. Ballenger. No, I know! David Hyles.    And you wonder why I believe the allegations against his father. I wonder where they learned that they could sin with impunity and expect to get away with it...

 

 

I'm sorry, in a way, to have to say such things. I'm not out to 'get' you, personally, 2T3:16. I just cannot bear to silently hear such statements that so thoroughly ignore the evil that has come from that man's ministry.

[Ukulelemike]

Brainwashed? You don't think there is a place, biblically, for older preachers to lead the training of younger preachers?  Yes-it's called at the feet of the mature pastors and leaders in church. This is where I did my training-in churches, hearing preaching, serving in various capacities, working toward a goal. I have had some college training, online, but that was for my further advancement in some areas, and all after I had become a pastor.

 They train people to do the impossible and keep on in the face of defeat ... is it wrong that that is or was worked into the fabric of the way the school is or was run? You prefer a college that makes light of a students character and heart and is only interested in brain learning? You prefer a school that prefers academics over loving people and winning souls? Hyles-Anderson, in my opinion, IS OR WAS JACK HYLES TRAINING PREACHERS TO BE PREACHERS They have thrown celebrations for other preachers at the college while Jack Hyles was still alive ... you might disagree with that ... the encouragement was to appreciate living men of God, and some that were dead, not just specifically Jack Hyles.

I have no problem with pastors being appreciated-they do a lot of hard work, that few others understand the difficulty of. But in dpoing it in college, I believe that it unrealistically sets young preachers up to an expectation for certain things that are really nowehre to be found in scripture. For me, personally, the best 'celebration' for me that I could want is to see those of my church following the word of God, serving as they are taught, willing to spread the gospel and generally being better servants of the Lord-I could ask for no better. Besides, it seem to me that the Bible tells us that as we are celebrated of men, that is our reward-we will receive no other once we have enjoyed and encourages the praise of man.  "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." 

See, I don't have a problem with appreciating men of God who are worthy of honor, even double-honor, but again, I worry that it sets up an expectaion of celebration and appreciation.  On the other hand, I encourage my church to NOT give myself or my wife gifts on birthdays and annivesaries-that's not why I'm there. In 11 years, I have not been 'celebrated' for anything, but I don't feel unappreciated; when one comes to me for adivce, for scripture help, for direction, this encourages me because I see that they have a desire to learn, to know better the truths of God, and that's why I am here. I don't need a cake, a party, a present-my rewards are for heaven. Treat your pastor well, with respect, tell him you love him sometimes, (also a great encouragement) and you're praying for him, and that's really all we need. Anything more is vanity

 

note: we also need to remember that there were many flavors of those who appreciated Jack Hyles and his ministry, we are talking about a lot of people ... some were likely to have been unbiblical in their flavor of Hyles aprreciation, for lack of better words right now  Agreed.

[2T3:16]

Let me qualify ... since I clearly have to spell everything out ... God is indeed the one who makes the impossible happen, and when people go out in the ministry ... they need to do so in faith ... Part of the point of what Ukelelemike called Hyles-cost was not to give Bro Hyles credit but that GOD CAN DO TODAY WHAT HE HAS DONE IN THE PAST ... I distinctly remember that being thrown around in such campaigns. Not "Jack Hyles can" but God can ... In fact I remember a night bus message where the Hyles Student pulled out a can in front of the bus and preached a short message entitled "Success In A Can" ... I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me God can, God can, God can ... etc Hyles was never mentioned. Although there is an I CAN DO before Christ does. I CAN WALK ON THE WATER ... IF CHRIST BIDS ME ... it doesn't happen until YOU step out on the water

 

I find it interesting that your list IS SO SHORT IN AN INSTITUTION RAN BY WHAT WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST IN THE COUNTRY AT ONE TIME and still ranks.

 

Why don't we disqualify Jesus ministry because Judas betrayed him even though he was of enough character to be trusted with the money, Paul assisted/consented to stoning christians, and Peter denied Jesus?

 

You would disqualify the "ministry" of the Bible because David had Uriah killed? Solomon had too many wives? Hosea married a prostitute? Abraham had an illegitamite child? Jacob tricked/fooled his father? Thomas doubted Jesus? Mary seemed to have a baby out of wedlock?

 

Shall I illustrate this from the book of Hebrews? A veritible HALL OF FAME OF MEN OF FAITH

[Ukulelemike]

Let me qualify ... since I clearly have to spell everything out ... God is indeed the one who makes the impossible happen, and when people go out in the ministry ... they need to do so in faith ... Part of the point of what Ukelelemike called Hyles-cost was not to give Bro Hyles credit but that GOD CAN DO TODAY WHAT HE HAS DONE IN THE PAST ... I distinctly remember that being thrown around in such campaigns. Not "Jack Hyles can" but God can ... In fact I remember a night bus message where the Hyles Student pulled out a can in front of the bus and preached a short message entitled "Success In A Can" ... I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me God can, God can, God can ... etc Hyles was never mentioned. Although there is an I CAN DO before Christ does. I CAN WALK ON THE WATER ... IF CHRIST BIDS ME ... it doesn't happen until YOU step out on the water

 

I find it interesting that your list IS SO SHORT IN AN INSTITUTION RAN BY WHAT WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST IN THE COUNTRY AT ONE TIME and still ranks.

 

Why don't we disqualify Jesus ministry because Judas betrayed him even though he was of enough character to be trusted with the money, Paul assisted/consented to stoning christians, and Peter denied Jesus?

 

You would disqualify the "ministry" of the Bible because David had Uriah killed? Solomon had too many wives? Hosea married a prostitute? Abraham had an illegitamite child? Jacob tricked/fooled his father? Thomas doubted Jesus? Mary seemed to have a baby out of wedlock?

 

Let's see: Jesus: The Messiah, Son of God, God Almighty, who has done no sin.

Paul: Unsaved when he consented to the stoning of Stephen and persecuted Christians. repented, and was saved.

Peter: repented

David: repented

Solomon:He was clearly wrong for all the wives, particularly those who worshiped foreign Gods-the result was the division of the kingdom. Did he write Ecclisiastes after this, perhaps having repented? unsure, but there was a very negative cosequence from Solomon's actions. Did Solomon have a ministry, per se?

Hosea: directed by God to marry a prostitute as a picture to sinning Israel, so sin involved.

Abraham: We see the evil effects even today of his poor decision. Technically, the child, Ishmael, was not illegitimate, however, just the product of acting upon the flesh to try and accomplish God's will. Must have repented at some ppoint, as called the friend of God.

Jacob: turned to God, must have repented.

Thomas, SREIOUSLY repented

Mary-no sin involved-bore the child of the Holy Ghost, God in the flesh. Nothing to repent of.

 

So, now you are comparing Jack Hyles, a man who was accused of taking another man's wife,and never submitted to any investigation by his church, who allowed his congregation to virtually worship him, who claimed to have done more than the Apostles at pentecost in one day,  who claimed that fundamentalism would fall if he fell, to all those listed above? The only similarity is that they are all sinners, (saved Jesus, of course). A big difference is that when faced with their actual sin, the above, for the most part, repented, others may have, though we only see what appears to have been a restoration, while Hyles is never said to have repented, admitted to anything, and declared himself so important to the cause of Christ that it would fall if he did.  Hyles was just a man, to be sure, but he seemed to think pretty highly of himself, and encouraged his church to do the same. He kept his own son in the pulpit and shielded him from repercussions for his adultery-he sounds more like an Eli than a Samuel.

 

 

 

Shall I illustrate this from the book of Hebrews? A veritible HALL OF FAME OF MEN OF FAITH

Maybe Hyles didn't do as was claimed-maybe he was completely innocent, a simple man of God who was forcibly put into a position of adoration by his church. Maybe. But somehow I have serious doubts.

 

And yes, like Samson, sometimes God allows a man to be used in spite of his rebellion, for His greater glory. But it didn't turn uot too well for Samson, did it? In the end? No repentance there, just a man praying to be revenged for his eyes.

[NotAshamed]

So, let me ask a question.  This is less about Jack Hyles, and more about "praying to receive Jesus," as the statement goes.  I'm certainly not defending "easy-believism," but here is something to thing about.

 

Let's take a scenario.  Assume it is a Sunday evening and the pastor is preaching a Gospel message.  Then, at the close of the message, he gives an an altar call and invites those forward who wish to turn to Christ.

 

Now, suppose someone comes forward and kneels at the altar.  That person knows he need Jesus.  He knows he is a sinner in need of salvation.  He's been convicted through the message and knows he can't save himself.

 

Anyway, now let's continue to suppose that while at the altar this person follows the pastor in a prayer.  In this prayer, and with all conviction, he acknowledges his sinfulness and need of salvation.  He expresses his belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and as very God, Himself.  He confesses his belief that Jesus died and rose again.  He further expresses his repentance.  In short, with all the sincerity he is capable of, he surrenders his life to Christ.

 

Finally, let's suppose he dies in a car crash on his way home from church.

 

Did he go to heaven?

[2T3:16]

So, let me ask a question.  This is less about Jack Hyles, and more about "praying to receive Jesus," as the statement goes.  I'm certainly not defending "easy-believism," but here is something to thing about.

 

Let's take a scenario.  Assume it is a Sunday evening and the pastor is preaching a Gospel message.  Then, at the close of the message, he gives an an altar call and invites those forward who wish to turn to Christ.

 

Now, suppose someone comes forward and kneels at the altar.  That person knows he need Jesus.  He knows he is a sinner in need of salvation.  He's been convicted through the message and knows he can't save himself.

 

Anyway, now let's continue to suppose that while at the altar this person follows the pastor in a prayer.  In this prayer, and with all conviction, he acknowledges his sinfulness and need of salvation.  He expresses his belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and as very God, Himself.  He confesses his belief that Jesus died and rose again.  He further expresses his repentance.  In short, with all the sincerity he is capable of, he surrenders his life to Christ.

 

Finally, let's suppose he dies in a car crash on his way home from church.

 

Did he go to heaven?

Yes. It was his belief in the only begotten son of God, Jesus Christ <--- plus nothing, I think the prayer is really only a formality

[Ukulelemike]

Yes. It was his belief in the only begotten son of God, Jesus Christ <--- plus nothing, I think the prayer is really only a formality

Agreed. Well, I believe the prayer is necessary, at least somewhat, in that we are told to 'call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved.' We DO need to call, though it is not a work, it is a response to the work.

[irishman]

Cut it out, Irish. All I did was make a statement that was absolute truth. I didn't apply it to anyone or anything.  

 

Maybe it was bad timing then, you did pipe in when the subject of Hyles came up, did you not?  We both know that you have maligned him in the past and partook in the conspiracy of others who did the same, did you not?  And as for the absolute truth, and those who you yourself have referred to a "reliable sources", it doesn't hold water; many so-called "reliable sources" are of the same persuasion as those ridiculers and disgruntled men and women who have sought to destroy and cause contention while cloaking themselves in a mask of "rigtheousness".  I have known "reliable sources" who would say the opposite, and take Bro. Hyles' part too.  Guess it matters what side of the fence we are on.  Unfortunatly the poison has spread far beyond you though, and now others are drinking their cool ade.

[irishman]

Actually, the relationship between a husband and wife is a picture of Christ and His church, so yes, a wife should reverence her husband, and virtually worship him, for it completes that picture, Also so should a husband love and sacrifice himself for his wife, even if that sacrifice becomes a literal physical sacrifice of life, though more likely he should be a living sacrifice for her, as for Christ, and as well as leading her, to be a servant to her as Christ was to His church and His disciples. So yes, this analogy is correct.

 

However, the problem that came about with Hyles, is it seems that, had some people tried to do for him as some tried to do for Paul, when they wanted to make a sacrifice to him, I'm not sure Hyles would have resisted quite as hard as Paul did.

 

As a pastor and preacher, I believe the relationship between a pastor and his church should be one of respect, love and service one to another, though the service generally should be going forth from the pastor to the church.

 

Another term used for pastor is shepherd-in fact, it MEANS shepherd. I keep sheep and goats, and nothing has made me understand the relationship between Christ and His church, and the pastor and their church, as much as my time keeping herds.

 

As the shepherd, I own the flock-they are mine, my responsibility. Now, I have a right to receive something from the herd, be it milk, wool or meat. However, if all the effort come from the flock to meet my desires, soon there will be neither milk nor meat nor wool. 90% of the effort between sheep and shepherd is from the shepherd to the flock-I must feed them food that is right and healthy for them-I have to clean their woulns, see they have sufficient water, clean accomodations, give them companionship, occasionally chastise them, protect them from enemies, sometimes bottle-raise them. In the end, I get a little milk and wool, and occasionally some meat. But most of the effort is from my side, not theirs.  I can't expect the flock to see to all my needs, I must supply theirs.

 

But I see these pastors like Hyles and others like him of demanding the sheep serve him, when really, it is the other way around. Jesus is our example of this-they loved Jesus, but He served them. he met their needs, not the other way around. The only ones who have statues of Jesus are those who don't really know Him-if we should not have statues of Jesus, why would we build them to men? Even 'great' men?

 

I beg your pardon, but Bro Hyles never "demanded" that others serve him, he always encouraged others to serve God.  Dr. Hyles always took care of his sheep, probably more so than many others who are on the bandwagon to bring him down.  He gave much to the girls,(and guys) at chapel, and it was a fun time for them away from the demands of study and conduct. (Nothing impure, but  just good old "goofing off".  I believe that is where many of the accusations were born.

 

The girls could not leave campus without a responsible chaperone.

They were taught to not even hold hands with a boy until they are married.

The boys were encouraged to open doors for the girls, and always be gentlemen.

Yet some have implied that the college taught classes on infidelity 101; does that sound like a cult that teaches impure relationships? 

 

Too many people have alligator mouths and mouse brains when they make UNFOUNDED accusations.  Of course Dr. Hyles never repented--he had no reason to! (of an affair).  The church in way covered up for him, they would have been heartbroken and disillusioned enough to want to see him hang if it were true.  These indictment you folks throw around hurt a lot more than Bro. Hyles, they affected the entire staff and college.  Think about it.

[JerryNumbers]

I believe some do worship the pastor. If the pastor is worth his salt he will do all he can to hide himself behind the cross of Christ while refusing to be exalted, & he will never tell his congregation your to follow me even if I go against the teachings of the Bible, instead he will say if I go against the teachings of the Bible do not follow me.