'Visions and dreams'

[farouk]

There was another thread about visions and dreams, but it's old, so here are my two cents' here:

I do think that visions and dreams still exist, but......

The question is, what importance do we actually place on them.

Seeing as God's Word is now complete ('that which is perfect is come', 1 Cor. 13), then we don't need to base our beliefs on dreams and visions or more supposed revelation, seeing as God has already fully revealed the Scriptures.

(I have dreams and maybe even visions - sometimes I'm don't know if I'm awake or asleep, but the Bible believer is entitled to say about my dreams and visions: "So, what?")

Blessings.

[farouk]

I guess it can be looked at from various angles.

But the key seems to be the lack of authority for dreams and visions now.

[Covenanter]

Is there any instruction in the NT concerning on-going visions & dreams? I've heard people report visions relating to the Lord's coming, but any time element has, of course, been wrong.

Your dreams may relate to your Scriptural meditation & be the result of your subconscious mind still working when asleep. Especially when I have been puzzled & have gone to sleep thinking about the question. It's even happened with a chess position.

When we dream about the girl we love, does it confirm that we should marry her?

I have heard reports particularly of Muslims having dreams about Jesus, & subsequently coming to a living faith - the dreams motivate the sinner to seek him, & give confidence to seek out a Christian.

In dreams the Lord could lay on our hearts particular needs or areas for missionary service or evangelism. I suggest testing such dreams by prayer & normal investigation.

I would not expect any revelatory visions to be given today. Scriptural revelation is complete, however a fresh understanding may be given. There are areas where true Christians disagree, & our understanding & interpretation may change e.g. by our interaction on forums like this.

[dantheman2]

There is no evidence or suggestion in the Word of God that such still occurrs. On the contrary, there is much evidence which makes clear that it does not. As was mentioned above, 1 Cor 13 comes to mind. It clearly teaches that when that which is perfect (the complete word) comes that which is in part (miracles including such things as prophecy which is basically visions) will be done away with. We are told in 2 Peter 1:3 that we have been given all things related to living a godly life. In Heb 1:1ff we are told that God now speaks through his son which we are taught is through his word (2 Peter 1:3, 2 Tim 3:16-17).

I have all kinds of dreams and day dreams but they are just that. They are dreams. Too many people will have a "vision" or a dream and suddenly they are "free" to do something which is forbidden in the word of God.

[John81]

Some claim 1 Cor 13 refers to the Bible, but it is much more likely it refers to Christ.

Any vision or dream would have to be in accord with the Word. If any are not in full accord with the Word or there is any doubt about the matter, they should be considered of no value.

Dreams such as those many Muslims have prior to coming to Christ could very well be the means the Holy Ghost is using with them to call them. I've heard of no claims where any of their dreams go beyond what one would see as a calling to Christ.

What many today call dreams and visions, especially in America, are not at all in line with Scripture and therefore should be rejected and those who proclaim them to be something to follow should be declared as false teachers.

[Seth Doty]

I have all kinds of dreams and day dreams but they are just that. They are dreams. Too many people will have a "vision" or a dream and suddenly they are "free" to do something which is forbidden in the word of God.

As John said a dream that contradicted the scriptures would not be of God and arises either from the desire of the individuals own heart or from the enemy. The purpose of dreams, impressions, or any other type of genuine leading of the Holy Ghost is to supplement the scriptures in areas where they may be silent, or occasionally to re-affirm them. It is never to replace or contradict them. For an example lets suppose an individual is uncertain if it is the Lords will to take a particular job or not. Let us also assume that there is nothing about the job that one could use to make a scriptural decision about it one way or another. The person is praying for direction about it since he is unsure of the will of God and has a dream that he should take the job. That could very well be the leading of the Lord and dreams are one of many ways God can speak to people to affirm or reveal his will and give peace. If it is of God it most assuredly will not violate either the letter or the spirit of his written word though. When people elevate dreams, impressions, or what not over Gods written revealed word it gives the devil open access. Obviously that is extremely dangerous and that is no doubt why speaking of dreams and such things make many baptists nervous(and not without some justification since abuse and misunderstanding of the scriptural role of dreams and so forth is rampant). Now in spite of the danger of misuse or abuse things like dreams or feelings should not be altogether discounted and ignored as they can many times be the still small voice of God. However they must continually and prayerfully be judged by Gods written word if a person is to avoid falling for the leading of the devil or their own flesh. Edited August 2, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[dantheman2]

As John said a dream that contradicted the scriptures would not be of God and arises either from the desire of the individuals own heart or from the enemy. The purpose of dreams, impressions, or any other type of genuine leading of the Holy Ghost is to supplement the scriptures in areas where they may be silent, or occasionally to re-affirm them. It is never to replace or contradict them. For an example lets suppose an individual is uncertain if it is the Lords will to take a particular job or not. Let us also assume that there is nothing about the job that one could use to make a scriptural decision about it one way or another. The person is praying for direction about it since he is unsure of the will of God and has a dream that he should take the job. That could very well be the leading of the Lord and dreams are one of many ways God can speak to people to affirm or reveal his will and give peace. If it is of God it most assuredly will not violate either the letter or the spirit of his written word though. When people elevate dreams, impressions, or what not over Gods written revealed word it gives the devil open access. Obviously that is extremely dangerous and that is no doubt why speaking of dreams and such things make many baptists nervous(and not without some justification since abuse and misunderstanding of the scriptural role of dreams and so forth is rampant). Now in spite of the danger of misuse or abuse things like dreams or feelings should not be altogether discounted and ignored as they can many times be the still small voice of God. However they must continually and prayerfully be judged by Gods written word if a person is to avoid falling for the leading of the devil or their own flesh.

According to Peter we have been given everything (all things) pertaining to life and godliness. We don't need dreams or "visions" to "supplement" his word.

[dantheman2]

Some claim 1 Cor 13 refers to the Bible, but it is much more likely it refers to Christ.

Any vision or dream would have to be in accord with the Word. If any are not in full accord with the Word or there is any doubt about the matter, they should be considered of no value.

Dreams such as those many Muslims have prior to coming to Christ could very well be the means the Holy Ghost is using with them to call them. I've heard of no claims where any of their dreams go beyond what one would see as a calling to Christ.

What many today call dreams and visions, especially in America, are not at all in line with Scripture and therefore should be rejected and those who proclaim them to be something to follow should be declared as false teachers.

It does refer to the completed word. Why is it "more likely" to refer to Christ?

[John81]

It does refer to the completed word. Why is it "more likely" to refer to Christ?

If I can find the material I'll post it. The application simply doesn't fit it being the Bible but Christ fits it perfectly.

[Seth Doty]

According to Peter we have been given everything (all things) pertaining to life and godliness. We don't need dreams or "visions" to "supplement" his word.

Lets look at the passage your speaking of.

"2 Peter 1:1-4 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Does that say God uses no other means but the bible to reveal his will? No. It just says God gives us everything "pertaining unto life and godliness" through the knowledge of God. Now the the truth contained in the bible is certainly critically important for obtaining the knowledge of God but having and even knowing the bible does not equal the knowledge of God. The "knowledge of God" speaks of two different things depending on context. Sometimes it speaks of salvation, and sometimes it speaks of an understanding of and love within the heart of a saved man for the character and heart of God. I don't think the passage is saying that the bible totally reveals Gods entire will for each individual in every area as you seem to be implying. After all, the cannon of scripture was not even complete yet when peter under the inspiration of God wrote the book of 2nd peter.

Specifically I think peter is saying in this passage that we are given all things pertaining unto life and godliness through salvation by faith in Christ, and that because we are saved many "great and precious promises" now apply to us. I don't think the passage is specifically addressing how God speaks to us at all.

While I agree that the bible reveals what the will of God is in the vast majority of situations it should be a given that there are going to be some things that the bible does not touch on directly. Now many of those are covered to a point by broad scriptural principles but what if even more specific direction is needed? What about things like who a person decides to marry, what they do for a living, who they work for, deciding if they should move to a entirely different area and so on? All of those are very important things that the scriptures might give some broad general guidance on but certainly nothing specific. For things like that one is either going to just do what ever they feel like doing and not worry about Gods will or they are going to need some specific extra-biblical guidance from God since his will on specific things like that is different for different people and not something spelled out in the scriptures. Now guidance on such things can come in many ways, ranging from an impression of Gods will on the matter when reading the scriptures(say for example your praying about moving somewhere and you come across a verse like Hebrews 11:8 and feel it impressed upon you that you should go even though technically that verse has nothing to do with your own move) to dreams, to things other people say to you. God will not lead everyone in the same manner in such situations nor will he even always use the same manner to lead the same individuals. As has been repeatedly said though, and it is worthy or repeating, if such guidance is truly from God it will never contradict his written word. Edited August 3, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[John81]

It does refer to the completed word. Why is it "more likely" to refer to Christ?

It's been too hot to really dig into my books so I'll put forth a short point that Dr. Ryrie made, which most who see this verse as referring to Christ agree with anyway.

1 Corinthians 13:10 is a reference to Christ's second coming. If it were referring to the completion of the Bible then that would mean we today see more clearly than Paul did.

I would also add that verse 12 also points to Christ's return and how things will be. The context of the reading is pointing to that perfection which comes when Christ returns and we are transformed into His image. Then we will see and know fully that which we can't now.

[dantheman2]

If I can find the material I'll post it. The application simply doesn't fit it being the Bible but Christ fits it perfectly.

Fits just fine being the word. Does not fit being Christ.

[dantheman2]

Lets look at the passage your speaking of.

"2 Peter 1:1-4 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Does that say God uses no other means but the bible to reveal his will? No. It just says God gives us everything "pertaining unto life and godliness" through the knowledge of God. Now the the truth contained in the bible is certainly critically important for obtaining the knowledge of God but having and even knowing the bible does not equal the knowledge of God. The "knowledge of God" speaks of two different things depending on context. Sometimes it speaks of salvation, and sometimes it speaks of an understanding of and love within the heart of a saved man for the character and heart of God. I don't think the passage is saying that the bible totally reveals Gods entire will for each individual in every area as you seem to be implying. After all, the cannon of scripture was not even complete yet when peter under the inspiration of God wrote the book of 2nd peter.

Specifically I think peter is saying in this passage that we are given all things pertaining unto life and godliness through salvation by faith in Christ, and that because we are saved many "great and precious promises" now apply to us. I don't think the passage is specifically addressing how God speaks to us at all.

While I agree that the bible reveals what the will of God is in the vast majority of situations it should be a given that there are going to be some things that the bible does not touch on directly. Now many of those are covered to a point by broad scriptural principles but what if even more specific direction is needed? What about things like who a person decides to marry, what they do for a living, who they work for, deciding if they should move to a entirely different area and so on? All of those are very important things that the scriptures might give some broad general guidance on but certainly nothing specific. For things like that one is either going to just do what ever they feel like doing and not worry about Gods will or they are going to need some specific extra-biblical guidance from God since his will on specific things like that is different for different people and not something spelled out in the scriptures. Now guidance on such things can come in many ways, ranging from an impression of Gods will on the matter when reading the scriptures(say for example your praying about moving somewhere and you come across a verse like Hebrews 11:8 and feel it impressed upon you that you should go even though technically that verse has nothing to do with your own move) to dreams, to things other people say to you. God will not lead everyone in the same manner in such situations nor will he even always use the same manner to lead the same individuals. As has been repeatedly said though, and it is worthy or repeating, if such guidance is truly from God it will never contradict his written word.

It would appear from your statement that you believe that God is basically making every little discission for you. The Bible is all sufficient to teach us everything we need to know (2 Peter 1:3, 2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Tim 3:15 etc). God does not sit and tell us how to do every little thing in our life. He actually allows us to live. Also, don't you find it interresting that so many people are running around saying "God told me..." and so many of them are saying things that contradict one another. The Lord speaks through his word today.

[John81]

It would appear from your statement that you believe that God is basically making every little discission for you. The Bible is all sufficient to teach us everything we need to know (2 Peter 1:3, 2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Tim 3:15 etc). God does not sit and tell us how to do every little thing in our life. He actually allows us to live. Also, don't you find it interresting that so many people are running around saying "God told me..." and so many of them are saying things that contradict one another. The Lord speaks through his word today.

You don't believe God calls people to certain vocations...or let's someone know who to marry...or warns of danger...or installs or rejects leaders...or answers the myriad of prayers asking for wisdom, direction and guidance for a plethora of life issues...etc.?

[farouk]

A sense of personal guidance, however real, and authoritative revelation, as in the complete Scriptures, are two rather different things, I think.

Blessings.