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The Beast Revelation

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Is there even one scriptural reason why the church attributes the harlot and Mystery Babylon to itself?

 

    

The apostasy has nothing to do with the Church either.

The apostate church in the tribulation is what is left after the rapture of the true church.

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It refers to the RCC which is completely apostate and worships a false god, the host.   This wafer is the god of Rome. Nothing can be more apostate than that.

Why would Paul make a mention concerning the falling away in the latter days if it was in reference to the RCC. They fell away 1,500 years ago.

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Why would Paul make a mention concerning the falling away in the latter days if it was in reference to the RCC. They fell away 1,500 years ago.

 

The text doesn't imply a church in any way.  It has all to do with the man of sin and his followers.  End-time symbols in Revelation are not used to describe something that begins1,500 years in the past and culminates at the end of the age.  They're a picture of something occurring 'at one time' 'at the end of time' (if you will) and not a progression of things.  

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The RCC never was there, you have to be there, in order to fall away, they've never taught anyone how to be saved. Even their leaders have been lost people by their very own testimony.

Here's the text.  Verse 1-2 Paul speaks to the Thessalonians.  Verse 3-12 is all about the man of sin and what he does and what he and his followers are like.  THEN at verse 13 the topic of the passage gets directed back to 'Christians' or the Thessalonians.

   

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Firm.

 

Verse 13, But We...is a conjunction that shows contrast and distinction which means that the people mentioned in verses 3-12 are being contrasted or compared to the Thessalonian's and those who "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

 

 They don't follow the man of sin, are not his followers, will not accept him, and the text contrast their differences.

 

...are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because h: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Edited by kaoticprofit

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The apostate church in the tribulation is what is left after the rapture of the true church.

The problem with that answer is that now you would have to prove a pre-trib rapture.  Keeping the rapture out of it and explain to me how you find the church mentioned between verses 3-12.  The text clearly states that the man of sin is revealed before the gathering.  Most believe that tribulation last 7 years and that the man of sin reigns for 3 1/2 years.  The rapture doesn't indicate whatsoever that the church is involved in the apostasy or that the Church would welcome the man of sin. 

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Hebrews 6:6 is the only other time where a "falling away" is mentioned. This is a body of people that knew that gospel but fell away from it. Hebrews is written to those in the last days (1:2) so the passage in II Thessalonians may refer to those during the tribulation who fall away from the revealed truth and take the mark of the beast. Notice Hebrews 6:11 speaks of "the end" (Matthew 24:13) . So you might be right about this not being the church as we know it now. It could refer to those waiting for the return of Christ during the tribulation who do not endure. Yet, in a sense, that would still make them the church. Just not the church pre-rapture.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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The problem with that answer is that now you would have to prove a pre-trib rapture.  Keeping the rapture out of it and explain to me how you find the church mentioned between verses 3-12.  The text clearly states that the man of sin is revealed before the gathering.  Most believe that tribulation last 7 years and that the man of sin reigns for 3 1/2 years.  The rapture doesn't indicate whatsoever that the church is involved in the apostasy or that the Church would welcome the man of sin. 

 

It is the Holy Spirit in the church that reproves the world of sin. He will never leave us nor forsake us. If he is taken away we will be taken away before God causes those that hear the truth of the gospel and reject Jesus to believe the lie of the antichrist.

 

John 16:7-8

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Not sure what you're getting at.  If God will never leave us or forsake us then He won't remove his Christian's before the tribulation.

 

You also base your beliefs on the supposition that the Empire of the beast is a global one.  And that I don't believe either!

Edited by kaoticprofit

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Eric, you are wasting your time with this man. When he says Christian it's to be translated as "papist".

 

 

How wonderful.  You don't know a thing about me.  How judgmental of you.  I stand for truth...and you?

 

Psalm 55:12-13 It is not an enemy who taunts me—
I could bear that.

It is not my foes who so arrogantly insult me—
I could have hidden from them.

 

Instead, it is youmy equal, my companion and close friend.

What good fellowship we once enjoyed as we walked together to the house of God.

 

Psalms 55:12-13  For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.

Edited by kaoticprofit

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Here's the text.  Verse 1-2 Paul speaks to the Thessalonians.  Verse 3-12 is all about the man of sin and what he does and what he and his followers are like.  THEN at verse 13 the topic of the passage gets directed back to 'Christians' or the Thessalonians.

   

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Firm.

 

Verse 13, But We...is a conjunction that shows contrast and distinction which means that the people mentioned in verses 3-12 are being contrasted or compared to the Thessalonian's and those who "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

 

 They don't follow the man of sin, are not his followers, will not accept him, and the text contrast their differences.

 

...are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because h: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

What you stated does not prove the RCC every had anything to do with Jesus. I stated;

 

"The RCC never was there, you have to be there, in order to fall away!"

 

 

Means the RCC has never had anything to do with God, so they cannot fall away. To fall away they would have once hat to teach the truth, so if you've never followed God's truth, have always been a false teaching bunch, you cannot fall away from God.

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Hebrews 6:6 is the only other time where a "falling away" is mentioned. This is a body of people that knew that gospel but fell away from it. 

 

These rejected the Gospel and were never born-again in the first place.

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Not sure what you're getting at.  If God will never leave us or forsake us then He won't remove his Christian's before the tribulation.

 

You also base your beliefs on the supposition that the Empire of the beast is a global one.  And that I don't believe either!

Daniel 7:21-26

21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

When we are taken up at the rapture the Holy Spirit will not leave us. He will go with us. God may send him back at some time during the tribulation. Then the antichrist will be revealed.

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For your information. I'm not a Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, Pentecostal, Baptist, or anything else.

 

I am James the Christian. 

If you have asked God to forgive your sins and accepted Jesus as the son of God who died for your sins and believe that he rose from the dead and are willing to cofess Jesus before men, then you are my Christian brother.

 

We must agree on that. We can be be wrong on other points but still go to heaven.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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What you stated does not prove the RCC every had anything to do with Jesus. I stated;

 

"The RCC never was there, you have to be there, in order to fall away!"

 

 

Means the RCC has never had anything to do with God, so they cannot fall away. To fall away they would have once hat to teach the truth, so if you've never followed God's truth, have always been a false teaching bunch, you cannot fall away from God.

It's no use trying to convince someone who is that misguided by their pre-conceived ideas.  You have no idea how wrong you are on the issue,  It certainly stems for indoctrination and an unwillingness to seek the truth and forgive.

 

Proverbs 6:14  Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

 

I know a lot of Catholic's, Pentecostals, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses.   I know Catholic doctrine well enough to know that it's in upwards of 80% identical and in accord to that of Protestantism.  I'm saddened that you and many others are that uninformed and appear to even be prejudice against Catholics.  It's no wonder people avoid Christian Churches like the plague.

 

There is no truth in the quote you've made above.  Ignorance

 

1 Corinthians 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20  And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21  Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22  Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23  And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

Your wisdom is insufficient to Judge Catholics. 

 

Proverbs 8:5  O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
 

Proverbs 8:13  The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Edited by kaoticprofit

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I know a lot of Catholic's, Pentecostals, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses.   I know Catholic doctrine well enough to know that it's in upwards of 80% identical and in accord to that of Protestantism. 

 

My grandpa used to have a jar of popcorn he kept high on a shelf above the basement stairs. It was laced with strychnine, and he called it his rat poison. (Not entirely sure why... we're not supposed to have rats up here!)  That jar was mostly filled with good food, but the small percentage that was poison made the whole fatal.
 

Not all doctrines are 'fatal' doctrines - damnable if you will.  Different standards of holiness or separation (i.e. dress, music, etc.), different eschatologies - these do not (generally) affect salvation. However, when the soteriology is changed from that of the Bible - then the whole is contaminated . Doesn't matter whether it's 80% 'good' if the 20% is poison.

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Daniel 7:21-26

21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

When we are taken up at the rapture the Holy Spirit will not leave us. He will go with us. God may send him back at some time during the tribulation. Then the antichrist will be revealed.

 

It seems that you base so much of your eschatology upon the rapture.  That in turn ruins the debate because then the issue becomes, "when does the rapture occur." 

Christian's too often use the rapture and Daniel's 70th week to support all of their eschatology.  That's a problem because of the many ways we can go with both!

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My grandpa used to have a jar of popcorn he kept high on a shelf above the basement stairs. It was laced with strychnine, and he called it his rat poison. (Not entirely sure why... we're not supposed to have rats up here!)  That jar was mostly filled with good food, but the small percentage that was poison made the whole fatal.
 

Not all doctrines are 'fatal' doctrines - damnable if you will.  Different standards of holiness or separation (i.e. dress, music, etc.), different eschatologies - these do not (generally) affect salvation. However, when the soteriology is changed from that of the Bible - then the whole is contaminated . Doesn't matter whether it's 80% 'good' if the 20% is poison.

That's not true either and Philippians 1 proves that. That's to say that you or your church has everything right!  The analogy you present is true and more relevant to the un-regenerated influence from people.  You know...Be not unequally yoked together?  Or tie the millstone around your neck...

No one Church has all the correct doctrine or the entire truth though many may think they do.

 

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Most Churches that I know of do not deny the Lord God or Christ.  These people are not Christians and when they did creep into the NT churches it wasn't long before they were excommunicated.

 

 

 

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

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If you have asked God to forgive your sins and accepted Jesus as the son of God who died for your sins and believe that he rose from the dead and are willing to cofess Jesus before men, then you are my Christian brother.

 

We must agree on that. We can be be wrong on other points but still go to heaven.

And every Catholic I know believes this...

 

If you have asked God to forgive your sins and accepted Jesus as the son of God who died for your sins and believe that he rose from the dead and are willing to confess Jesus before men, then you are my Christian brother.

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Sorry... which isn't true? Ya lost me there...

It's not true that some false doctrine corrupts the entire batch.  In Philippians 1 even though Christ is being preached improperly with bad motives and even not in truth...Paul is still able to rejoice because Christ is being preached!

 

Corruption of the batch is more a moral condition a rotten apple and not an un-damnable teaching.

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It's not true that some false doctrine corrupts the entire batch.  In Philippians 1 even though Christ is being preached improperly with bad motives and even not in truth...Paul is still able to rejoice because Christ is being preached!

 

Corruption of the batch is more a moral condition a rotten apple and not an un-damnable teaching.

 

Where does Philippians 1 say that they were teaching Christ not in truth?

 

"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." 1 Cor. 5:6, Gal. 5:9

Leaven is a type of sin. In 1 Corinthians, Paul was preaching against the sin being touted in the church and their 'tolerant' response to it. In Galations he was preaching against the false doctrine creeping into the church that they needed to add works to their faith to be or stay saved.

 

You mentioned earlier that every Catholic you know would believe that they must:
"...have asked God to forgive your sins and accepted Jesus as the son of God who died for your sins and believe that he rose from the dead and are willing to confess Jesus before men..."

Every Catholic I've spoken to would also agree with that statement - but they would then add that to this belief they must also do works to earn salvation. This is very similar to the false doctrine the Galatians were facing.  Paul actually calls this 'another gospel' (Gal. 1:8,9).  

 

If one is teaching that faith + works is required for salvation, this is not the gospel of Christ according to the Bible. People cannot be saved if they are depending on their own works in any part or measure. If they are not saved, they are damned to hell. (God's words, not mine.) How is this not a damnable doctrine?

Edited by salyan

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