Professional Liars

[Covenanter]

Budget meeting

[John81]

How true!

[Miss Linda]

This actually addresses an issue about which I have been praying lately. I'm really starting to question whether it is right for me to continue to work for attorneys. I sincerely hope this statement will not offend any member of this forum, but I do think that attorneys are "professional liars". Every attorney for whom I have ever worked has operated under the philosophy that the truth is something to be manipulated, as one lawyer told me with a leering smirk, the truth is what the smarter person can argue. They spend their days studying ways to manipulate statutes and regulations so they can find loopholes to gain a decision in their favor.

I worry that my working as a secretary for lawyers may be displeasing to God. but then I think of Joseph in the book of Genesis, who worked for Pharaoh most of his adult life. He was part of a pagan government system but still managed to be faithful to God. *sigh*. Not sure what to do in this issue. I'm still praying about it.

[John81]

This actually addresses an issue about which I have been praying lately. I'm really starting to question whether it is right for me to continue to work for attorneys. I sincerely hope this statement will not offend any member of this forum, but I do think that attorneys are "professional liars". Every attorney for whom I have ever worked has operated under the philosophy that the truth is something to be manipulated, as one lawyer told me with a leering smirk, the truth is what the smarter person can argue. They spend their days studying ways to manipulate statutes and regulations so they can find loopholes to gain a decision in their favor.

I worry that my working as a secretary for lawyers may be displeasing to God. but then I think of Joseph in the book of Genesis, who worked for Pharaoh most of his adult life. He was part of a pagan government system but still managed to be faithful to God. *sigh*. Not sure what to do in this issue. I'm still praying about it.

Seeking the Lord in prayer is the right response. Unless the Lord leads you to leave that job, you should probably remain.

I recall a former lawyer discussing this sort of thing. He remembered how prior to some laws that came into effect in the 1960s, such as Miranda, it was rather common to seek the truth. It was even common for criminals, once caught, to confess and take responsibility for their crime. After Miranda and other laws passed in the 60s, this all changed. From that point onward criminals were told to keep silent until a lawyer could come along and help them create a story that might let them go free or get a lighter sentence.

You are right that most lawyers today, whether prosecutor or defense, spend their time trying to hide anything true that goes against what they want, while overplaying any truth that agrees with their goals, and they are willing to use lies believing the means justify the ends.

I took paralegal classes, even earning my certificate, but doing paralegal work was too corrupt. Likely as not, in some situations I could take a clerk or secretary type position. I've worked in a secular university admissions office. There were those in the leadership positions who were more concerned about finding anyway possible for students to qualify for public assistance than they were with the truth. They would coach students in how to lie on the forms so they could get the Pell Grant and other "free" government assistance. That's something I would be unwilling to do, but my job didn't require that.

It can be tough knowing where it is and isn't acceptable to work. Some cases are easy, such as being a bartender, it should be clear that's not a job for Christians. Yet other jobs we absolutely need to seek direct guidance from the Lord in prayer. Wal-Mart sells alcoholic beverages, but most people who work for Wal-Mart have no direct part in that. Factories and other businesses are often owned by the unsaved and practice some, or a lot of, unethical business practices; yet most employees have no active part in that, and may not even know about it.

I will lift your situation to Lord in prayer too. :icon_pray:

[Miss Linda]

Seeking the Lord in prayer is the right response. Unless the Lord leads you to leave that job, you should probably remain.

I recall a former lawyer discussing this sort of thing. He remembered how prior to some laws that came into effect in the 1960s, such as Miranda, it was rather common to seek the truth. It was even common for criminals, once caught, to confess and take responsibility for their crime. After Miranda and other laws passed in the 60s, this all changed. From that point onward criminals were told to keep silent until a lawyer could come along and help them create a story that might let them go free or get a lighter sentence.

You are right that most lawyers today, whether prosecutor or defense, spend their time trying to hide anything true that goes against what they want, while overplaying any truth that agrees with their goals, and they are willing to use lies believing the means justify the ends.

I took paralegal classes, even earning my certificate, but doing paralegal work was too corrupt. Likely as not, in some situations I could take a clerk or secretary type position. I've worked in a secular university admissions office. There were those in the leadership positions who were more concerned about finding anyway possible for students to qualify for public assistance than they were with the truth. They would coach students in how to lie on the forms so they could get the Pell Grant and other "free" government assistance. That's something I would be unwilling to do, but my job didn't require that.

It can be tough knowing where it is and isn't acceptable to work. Some cases are easy, such as being a bartender, it should be clear that's not a job for Christians. Yet other jobs we absolutely need to seek direct guidance from the Lord in prayer. Wal-Mart sells alcoholic beverages, but most people who work for Wal-Mart have no direct part in that. Factories and other businesses are often owned by the unsaved and practice some, or a lot of, unethical business practices; yet most employees have no active part in that, and may not even know about it.

I will lift your situation to Lord in prayer too.

Thank you very much for your prayers! I too obtained a paralegal certificate many years ago. Like you, I realized that I could not practice as a paralegal without compromising Biblical principles so I have continued to work as a legal secretary instead.

Your points about Wal-Mart employees, and employees in other businesses, is well taken. I suppose no secular business is without its sinful influences and actions. I guess my overarching concern is to avoid earning my living in a way that is displeasing to my Lord. I have had to clarify that there are some things I will not do (work on the Lord's Day, for example, or participate in any sort of deceptive practice), but thus far that has not cost me my job.

I just need to keep praying for wisdom to know what His will is. Even typing that sentence sends a thrill of joy through me! Glory to God that the Creator of Heaven and Earth cares to direct my life!

Thank you again, very much, for your prayers.

" . . . The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16)

[HappyChristian]

My hubby went to school with Scott Adams. He doesn't know for sure if it's the same guy, but the one he went to school with liked to draw...(he actually detests Dilbert, but would agree that this is the likely truth in many businesses).

I would agree with John that, unless the Lord leads you elsewhere, stay where you are. You cited Joseph, a good example. But another to remember is Esther. She was specifically put into a heathen situation. But her faithfulness and her bravery ended up saving an entire nation from destruction. You won't know until eternity how your testimony - by your dress, your speech and your mannerisms, as well as actual witnessing - has affected your co-workers. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who works with people who manipulate the truth...I do, too. And I have rather embarrassed my boss a time or two when she's recommended that I, um, stretch the truth and I told her flat out that I cannot and will not lie. She finally quit making those kind of comments and she respects me, even if she thinks I'm wacko. :icon_mrgreen:

[Covenanter]

Perhaps I should not have put this in the "Humour" section! It's too true!

[Miss Linda]

My hubby went to school with Scott Adams. He doesn't know for sure if it's the same guy, but the one he went to school with liked to draw...(he actually detests Dilbert, but would agree that this is the likely truth in many businesses).

I would agree with John that, unless the Lord leads you elsewhere, stay where you are. You cited Joseph, a good example. But another to remember is Esther. She was specifically put into a heathen situation. But her faithfulness and her bravery ended up saving an entire nation from destruction. You won't know until eternity how your testimony - by your dress, your speech and your mannerisms, as well as actual witnessing - has affected your co-workers. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who works with people who manipulate the truth...I do, too. And I have rather embarrassed my boss a time or two when she's recommended that I, um, stretch the truth and I told her flat out that I cannot and will not lie. She finally quit making those kind of comments and she respects me, even if she thinks I'm wacko.

Esther IS another good one to remember! I guess I always think of Joseph because I see him as sort of an administrative officer--an early iteration of an office worker.

And I know exactly what you mean about co-workers thinking of you as "wacko" because you refuse to engage in deceptive practices. It is so sad that deception has become an accepted and expected business practice. I suppose you are right-- mannerisms and dress do serve as a witness. People periodically ask me what church I attend and I assume that comes from the long skirts.

[Covenanter]

Naaman was given permission to bow & worship the LORD when his king was worshipping Rimmon.

2Ki 5:17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.
18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.
19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. ....

However we must be aware of possible compromise & resultant bad witness.

[HappyChristian]

Naaman was given permission to bow & worship the LORD when his king was worshipping Rimmon.

2Ki 5:17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.
18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.
19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. ....

However we must be aware of possible compromise & resultant bad witness.

Good reminder, Covenantor!

[irishman]

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!

[HappyChristian]

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!

That is so true, irishman. I remember when I was babysitting years ago, it was Christian folk who tried to get me to watch their child(ren) for less then peanuts, but then turned around and wanted to charge exorbitant rates for what they did...Fortunately, they aren't all that way!

[JerryNumbers]

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!

There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

[John81]

There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

We have a couple shady Christian businessmen around this little town. Most locals know to beware because both men will charge far more than anyone else around for their services.

We do have one solid Christian businessman in our town. He attends our church and for all of his services he charges only a tiny amount over expenses. He did a small job for me one year and charged me 6 dollars while others in the area were charging 20 or more for the exact same thing.

[Miss Linda]

There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

I wonder the same thing, Jerry. Since I work so closely with lawyers I have seen first-hand how they twist laws and statutes to favor the view that they want. How can a person not be effected if they spend their work days twisting regulations to suit their purposes? A person who has trained their mind to think that way cannot pick up the holy Word of God and suddenly switch to a different way of thinking and, as you said, acknowledge the absolute truths to be found there.

The attorneys I have known take great pride in being able to argue a point and twist the meaning of something to suit their purposes. They believe that the truth is what the smarter person can argue. Several years ago one attorney I worked for became frustrated with me when I said something about a "lie always being a lie". He said that if that were true then attorneys would never be able to make a living, and said I lived in a "fantasy world" where everything was black and white. I don't know about living in a fantasy world, but it seems to me that most things really are black and white. I don't think you can justify practicing falsehoods in the name of business. I believe God expects us to follow Him in all our dealings, not just in our personal lives but in our professional lives too. How can you separate the two without staining your soul with sin?

I truly do fear for their souls and I cannot see how a fervent Christian could make their living as an attorney without severely compromising themselves.

"And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity." (Jeremiah 9:5) Edited June 19, 2011 by Miss Linda