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John Piper and Christian Hedonism


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Well, God told Jeremiah that before He came out of the womb He sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet to the nations (see Jeremiah 1)...

That sounds pretty "predestined" to me. :icon_mrgreen:

Also: Romans 8:28 and onward.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

Spurgeon, as well as many others, believed there are those who are specifically called (predestinated) as well as those who are saved through the "general call".
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Actually, Joel, God has plans for each person born on this earth: He wants every person saved. I just can't get around that little word "any" and the other one: "all" in the verse that says "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance..." It's almost amusing that people try to apply that to only those whom God has chosen. But any and all mean just what they say.

God did ordain Jeremiah to be a prophet...but Jeremiah could've done his own thing, just as many people do today. See, we need to remember that God gives people the CHOICE of salvation, the CHOICE of surrender, the CHOICE of submission. He has plans for us, and they are all good. But US can mess those up when we do our own thing. He will not force anyone to do anything - then it wouldn't be true service.

~~~~~
Here's a good explanation of some verses that people don't understand all the time, choosing to read into scripture that which isn't there instead of accepting what it says....

Let’s begin with Ephesians 1:3-12:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which he has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

First, let’s look at the time frame of the passage. It is said to be “before the foundation of the world”. In other words God’s predestination takes place before anyone ever existed. Secondly, we need to realize to whom Paul is writing. He is writing to Christians. What he has to say is applicable only to Christians. Who are the ones that God the Father has chosen before the foundation of the world? Paul writes in verse four that He “chose us [Christians to whom Paul is writing] in Him [in Christ, i.e. those who believe in Christ]”. What has God predestined and chosen Christians for? Is it to receive faith and salvation? Not at all. Paul writes that God has predestined all Christians to be “adopted as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself” (ver. 5) and to be “holy and without blame before Him” (ver. 4).

As many have pointed out, observe, first, the subjects of the choice, “us,” believers, not people of the world (the apostle includes himself); and secondly, the object or goal of predestination, “unto the adoption of children.” W.B. Riley said on this passage: “The term ‘predestination’ which has alarmed many, is only another expression of the eternal compassion, the eternal plan, the eternal purpose, the eternal project-redemption! The believer’s position, however, is by the exercise of man’s will. He has ‘predestinated us unto the adoption of children…’ but He will never foreclose on that which He has purchased without our personal consent. The day one is willing to be adopted, that day he becomes God’s child… Our adoption is done the moment we consent to it; but the joy of it all, to the praise and glory of His grace-comes to us in ever-increasing measure.” (The Bible of the Expositor and the Evangelist, “New Testament,” Vol XII, pp. 13-15). Another Baptist pastor and teacher, Dr. A.J. Wall, said on this, “One must first conclude that he is talking about saved persons and not the means of their salvation. Then in verses four and five as he talks about choosing and predestinating, he is talking about saved people, for Paul includes himself by saying ‘us’… It did not say ‘according as He has chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world,’ but ‘according as He has chosen us’ (we who are believers)… ‘that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.’ Not that some should be saved or that some shall be lost, for the subject of the salvation of the soul is not mentioned. Before the foundation of the world God chose that the believers in Christ should be, or stand, before Christ in love, holy and without blame. It must be some future time when the believer will be conformed to the image of His Son… Ephesians 1:11, the believer is predestinated to receive an inheritance that has already been purchased, obtained, or paid for.” (The Truth About Election, pp. 12-14). (Samuel Fisk, Election and Predestination (Bicester, England: Penfold Book & Bible House, 1997), p. 134-135.)

The authors quoted above are absolutely correct. God has predestined that all believers will receive an inheritance and be conformed to the image of His son. No where does the passage teach the concept that God has chosen who will be saved and who will be lost without reference to anything in the creature. “The mystery of His will” is that God has worked out a plan from all eternity to give an inheritance to all who believe in His Son Jesus Christ. All of God’s predestining is done for those who are in Christ (i.e. only for believers).

What then of verse 11 which states that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will”? Does this mean that all things happen irresistibly? We need to keep in mind that God’s counsel can indeed be resisted: “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him” (Luke 7:30). So while God is in control of everything and works everything according to His own plans and desires, His plans and desires for certain individuals can be resisted. However, even when people rebel against God and His desires for them, He is able to use their rebellion and rejection of His counsel to further His own purposes. An example of this are the vessels of wrath who have prepared themselves for destruction by resisting His will in Romans 9:22. Even though He bears with them in great patience allowing them every opportunity to repent, God can justly display his wrath against them when they ultimately fail to do so. God wills that all should repent and believe (Isaiah 55:6-7, Ezekiel 18:28-32). He also desires to demonstrate His wrath and His power (Romans 9:22). Thus whether they receive or reject Him, His will is still accomplished!

For more on Romans 8: http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/predestination.htm

I realize that hard and fast Calvinists will not accept this, but that's okay. But it is accurate, it is scriptural, and it is comparing scripture to scripture instead of just taking a word and making it another doctrine...
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Well, God told Jeremiah that before He came out of the womb He sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet to the nations (see Jeremiah 1)...

That sounds pretty "predestined" to me. :icon_mrgreen:

Also: Romans 8:28 and onward.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.


5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

I don't have time to dig up the verses for you right now......
Notice the events in the verse are in chronological order.. God did three things for Jeremiah at three different times.
1# God knows us all before we are even concieved....and He forms us all in the womb.
#2 God sanctifies us all before we come into the world and it is God who determines whether or not a child will survive as a live birth.
#2 But God only ordained (set, established) Jeremiah as a prophet after Jeremaih was born physically and had become a believer.
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5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

I don't have time to dig up the verses for you right now......
Notice the events in the verse are in chronological order.. God did three things for Jeremiah at three different times.
1# God knows us all before we are even concieved....and He forms us all in the womb.
#2 God sanctifies us all before we come into the world and it is God who determines whether or not a child will survive as a live birth.
#2 But God only ordained (set, established) Jeremiah as a prophet after Jeremaih was born physically and had become a believer.


Eisegesis much? The text does NOT say that. Period.
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Spurgeon, as well as many others, believed there are those who are specifically called (predestinated) as well as those who are saved through the "general call".


Can you give me a quote on that? All Calvinists believe that everyone gets the general call, but only the elect get the effectual call. That means that all those who are elect and saved get both calls while all those who are not saved only get the general call.
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Eisegesis much? The text does NOT say that. Period.


Ahh but the scripture does...........


Job31: 13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me;

14What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him?

15Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

If God forms us in the womb....he knows us.

And the words "know and knew" are not only used for "knowing" in salvation. They're also used for "knowing" as in "having knowledde of" or "having sexual relations with".
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Can you give me a quote on that? All Calvinists believe that everyone gets the general call, but only the elect get the effectual call. That means that all those who are elect and saved get both calls while all those who are not saved only get the general call.

I've posted it here on OB a few times. I'm pretty sure I even posted an entire Sermon by Spurgeon on this before. Right off hand I don't have the reference but if I come across it I will post it again.
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Ahh but the scripture does...........


Job31: 13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me;

14What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him?

15Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

If God forms us in the womb....he knows us.

And the words "know and knew" are not only used for "knowing" in salvation. They're also used for "knowing" as in "having knowledde of" or "having sexual relations with".


I'm talking about this: "But God only ordained (set, established) Jeremiah as a prophet after Jeremaih was born physically and had become a believer." The text does not say that or anything close to that.
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I've posted it here on OB a few times. I'm pretty sure I even posted an entire Sermon by Spurgeon on this before. Right off hand I don't have the reference but if I come across it I will post it again.


I tried searching for something along those lines and found quite the opposite. According to this article, Spurgeon would call a lot of people here heretics if he were alive. http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41
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I'm talking about this: "But God only ordained (set, established) Jeremiah as a prophet after Jeremaih was born physically and had become a believer." The text does not say that or anything close to that.


Jeremiah 1:1 words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

When did the word of the Lord come to Jeremiah? It came to jeremiah "in the days of Josiah" and when it came, he was already "a child" who was able to speak. Not only that, but he couldn't have even been a toddler just learning to speak because when the word of the Lord came to him, he was old enough to carry on an articulate conversation....and when "the word" came he was already a believer who could acknowledge Him as "Lord GOD".

Jeremiah1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
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I tried searching for something along those lines and found quite the opposite. According to this article, Spurgeon would call a lot of people here heretics if he were alive. http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41

This is one of the Spurgeon sermons I was referring to.

Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm
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Jeremiah 1:1 words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

When did the word of the Lord come to Jeremiah? It came to jeremiah "in the days of Josiah" and when it came, he was already "a child" who was able to speak. Not only that, but he couldn't have even been a toddler just learning to speak because when the word of the Lord came to him, he was old enough to carry on an articulate conversation....and when "the word" came he was already a believer who could acknowledge Him as "Lord GOD".

Jeremiah1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

I'm trying to follow you here but I'm lost. Could you clarify or explain what you are trying to say here? Thank you.
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This is one of the Spurgeon sermons I was referring to.

Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm


That is an excellent sermon and an excellent example of what classical Calvinism is. Where does he say that anyone gets saved apart from the effectual call (irresistible grace)? I think he makes the point clear (through he doesn't explicitly state it in this manner) that it is the duty of every sinner to repent or they will be condemned if they fail to do so, yet it is only by the grace of God that one is able to do such a thing, and those who receive that grace (read who have that grace divinely bestowed upon them) will be the ones who will repent.
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