Dichotomy vs Trichotomy

[anime4christ]

1John.5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I think trying to understand God in human terms is impossible. For example, if you were to take a person who was blind from birth, and try to explain to them what an elephant looked like, or what the moon looked like, how would you do it? They would not know what the terms you would use to describe it with looked like either, so it would be very difficult.

Now try explaining something that is heavenly to something that is earthly. Jesus spoke on this matter with Nicodemus.

John. 3

[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

How difficult would it be to describe something heavenly, when there is no easy way of comparing it to something earthly?!

So if its hard to explain what something looks like to a blind person.
Harder yet to explain what heavenly things are like to an earthly being.
How much MORE difficult to explain GOD almighty to us mere mortals using earthly terms?

The scripture tells us much about what God is like, so we can at least glimpse a part of Him. We cannot see his full glory right now though.

The soul and the spirit are both "heavenly" you could say, so they too, are not easily understood.


Heb.4
[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The way the Bible says "even" implies that it is very very very difficult to divide the soul and the spirit, but the word of God can. It is THAT sharp.

How difficult though for us humans to divide the two with our puny brains!


I am not saying that we cannot determine the differences between soul and spirit, but I am saying that it is not an easy thing to do. I've yet to read or hear of a really good scriptural explanation of the two. I've done some studying on it myself and have come up with some ideas, but nothing as of yet that I would like to share.

I'll skip the parts about God, because we're not discussing the "composition" of God (if such a thing could be even said about God), but the composition of man. For the record, I do believe in the Trinity, as does any other orthodox Christian, whether dichotomist or trichotomist.

I believe there is a difference between soul and spirit, depending on the way the words are used in their context in the Bible. However, I do not believe that the soul and spirit are two separate immaterial entities within man. Hebrews 4:12 actually proves that point. As joints are impossible without there being bones and marrow, so it is impossible to have a soul without a body and spirit. Yet, the Word of God is sharp enough to discern these, even if not taking apart in the sense that you could have one without the other. For example, if you have a geometric shape, say, a cube, you have a side on the left and a side on the right (as well as front, back, top, and bottom). The left side is not the right side and the right side is not the left side, but they are all part of the cube. If it were possible to take away the left side, you would no longer have a cube. So, the Word can discern and divide on the level that it shows the difference between the two. Yet, it does not tear joints from marrow or soul from spirit in the most literal sense. I will post a rundown of what I believe the soul and spirit really are in a later post. After I answer some more posts.

[anime4christ]

I don't think it's that crude at all. Everywhere you look in nature (water, the sun's rays, an atom, the Earth itself, even a chicken egg) you see a reflection of the Trinity, but you're not going to when it comes to man, who is created in God's image?

I can use this same analogy to support dichotomy. Natural man does not have the Spirit of God within him and is incomplete. When a man is saved, He is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, making three entities in him instead of two. It's an even prettier picture than comparing the Trinity to a 3-entity man of body, soul, and spirit. However, both of those analogies do not have explicit Biblical backing.

[anime4christ]

I can give you one for Jesus...Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Can't quite say that is a description of every man, especially an unbeliever. So that verse would help the dichotomist position more than the trichotomist, though it actually doesn't help either.

[anime4christ]

I believe in the trichotomy. Did I spell that right?

The body is simple; I don't need to give any proof of that one.

Here's the soul:

Gen. 35:18, "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

While there are many passages that speak of the soul as being the person, hence you could say (as the Seventh Day Adventists do) that the soul and the body are one, in this passage they are shown to be distinctly different.

Here's the spirit:

James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

This distinctly shows the difference between a body and a spirit. You'd have a better shot of proving that the soul and the spirit were the same.

This verse shows that a body dies when the spirit leaves it. If there really is such a thing as "out of body experiences" (I don't know) then you'd have a case where the soul left but the spirit was still there, and as a result the body was still alive. I've read stories of lost and saved people, on their deathbeds, reacting to the fires of Hell or the glory of Heaven while they were dying. It could be that their soul was experiencing eternity but the body was still alive on Earth because the spirit was still in the body.

I will now get on to explaining what I believe the soul is as the Bible uses the word.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7

All we need is a little bit of exegesis to understand that in this context, soul is synonymous with being or creature. In the Old Testament, soul basically means living creature; being; or life. In Hebrew, one word was used to describe all of those things, and even in English, we often use the words soul, life, and being/living creature interchangeably. For example: "The war claimed many lives." "Many souls were lost in the war." "After the war, there was not a single living creature left." This is exactly what the Old Testament usually means when using the word soul. The following verses make sense in English when using words other than soul in them:

And it came to pass, as her life was in departing, (for she died).. - Genesis 35:18

And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my whole being may bless thee before I die. - Genesis 27:4

These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the human beings were fourteen. - Genesis 46:22 (this one sounds a bit strange with English grammar; people would have been a better word, but you guys get the picture)

Behold, all creatures are mine; as the life of the father, so also the life of the son is mine: the person that sinneth, he shall die. - Eziekel 18:4 (A soul can die!)

Now, it is obvious that while those verses make sense with the words replaced, some of them do seem a bit lacking because in English the words being and living creature are rarely thought of as encompassing the spiritual, but usually only the physical. Also, we tend to think of the word life as meaning either physical life or spiritual life, but rarely both at the same time. Most ancient cultures saw the spiritual and the physical intertwined. A human being is a physical and a spiritual being. Or in the words of the Bible, a soul is both body and spirit. This also touches on the concept of the whole being more than the sum of the parts. A soul is incomplete, or dead, without both body and spirit. That is what death is: the separation of body and spirit. At that point, the soul dies, or life departs, as the Bible says in some of the above quoted verses.

Now, when it comes to the New Testament, it picks up on the same concept in some cases, but carries it further into the immaterial, or spiritual, realm. More emphasis is placed on the spiritual part of the soul than the physical. I believe the reason for this is because the NT writers understood that death (separation of body and spirit) means nothing to our powerful God. This is evident in Jesus' words:

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. - Matthew 22:31-32

There are two things I wanted to note from this passage. The first, already mentioned, is that to God, the dead are as good as alive. Therefore, the dead soul, is not dead, but alive to God, even if to us the person may seem dead for now. God, existing outside of time, does not need to wait until the resurrection for someone to be alive to Him. Yet, this very concept is crucial as the guarantee and importance of the resurrection. A soul is the whole which is greater than the sum of body and spirit, so it only exists when the two entities are joined. To God, however, the resurrection is a done deal, so to Him, the soul is not dead, while to us at this time, it is when a person is dead.

What makes this slightly confusing in the New Testament is that the word used for soul in Greek is often used in the Bible and outside of it as referring only to the immaterial part of man; as a synonym for spirit. Whenever soul is used in this sense, though, the description of the human soul is virtually identical to that of the human spirit. However, the New Testament also retains the usage of the word soul as the Old Testament in many places as well:

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. - Revelation 16:3

So, that my explanation of what I believe the soul is in Biblical usage. If it is a bit confusing, it's because it's late, I'm sick with the cold, and this is a difficult topic. I hope I got the idea across correctly though.

One more thing I would like to address is the misconception that the dichotomist position dictates soul-sleep (or is that spirit-sleep?). If the words soul and spirit are often used interchangeably in the New Testament, yet they are described as conscious in the intermediate state in both Jesus' parable and in Revelation, why should we assume that the human spirit is unconscious in the intermediate state? It is merely disembodied, but that does not mean it is unconscious. After all, it is the spirit which gives consciousness to the body and the soul. So, no, dichotomy does not dictate soul-sleep. It merely does not see the soul and spirit as separate entities (or the body, for that matter, but that is a different topic).

Later, we can talk about the practical applications and implications of both teachings. After all, what is the point of this truth if it is not applicable? I believe that all truth (meaning all that is contained in the Bible) has a practical application.

[Brother Rick]

Let me get this right: you're saying the soul basically is the whole of what a man is, that it's basically his body and his spirit together? In Revelation you have souls without bodies that are awaiting a resurrection. Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition, I don't think it holds up.

That being said, I believe that the word "soul" can be used in the manner in which you have described, but that it is not the only definition. "Soul" can mean "life" or "heart" or "person" or it can refer to a person's emotions. You can say the same thing about the word "spirit," but I believe that the Scripture also show that there is more to the story then that, that within in body there is a literal soul and spirit.

In Ecclesiastes it speaks of the spirit of the beast, as in an animal having a spirit. This makes sense when you look at James 2:26 which says a body is dead without a spirit. A spirit is like air - God breathed into Adam the breath of life. It's like the spiritual battery that makes a body work.

[2Tim215]

Does no one find it strange that when Saul used the witch to call up the "spirit" of Samuel she recognized him as "An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle." or when the rich man and the poor man died he was able in hell to see and recognize the beggar, he was able to feel thirst and the flame?
So how is it that the spirit spirit comes alive when saved, that after death the person is recognizable as they were on earth, that the spirit is dead in sin until we are saved and quickened through Christ?

But to put this to rest and as I always say: the bible says it and I believe it! To be whole we must be three. To be alive we must be three. In sin we are dead and only two.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Edited November 23, 2011 by 2Tim215

[Guest]

Can't quite say that is a description of every man, especially an unbeliever. So that verse would help the dichotomist position more than the trichotomist, though it actually doesn't help either.

I wasn't going for the original OP, just your request for a scripture for the following...


Can you back that up with a passage from Scripture that clearly teaches that? Trichotomy is a bad comparison to the Trinity. Jesus the body? The Holy Spirit the spirit? And the Father the soul? God is three persons, not three parts of one person, two immaterial, and one material. The comparison is just too crude.

I can give you one for Jesus...Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[anime4christ]

Let me get this right: you're saying the soul basically is the whole of what a man is, that it's basically his body and his spirit together? In Revelation you have souls without bodies that are awaiting a resurrection. Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition, I don't think it holds up.

That being said, I believe that the word "soul" can be used in the manner in which you have described, but that it is not the only definition. "Soul" can mean "life" or "heart" or "person" or it can refer to a person's emotions. You can say the same thing about the word "spirit," but I believe that the Scripture also show that there is more to the story then that, that within in body there is a literal soul and spirit.

In Ecclesiastes it speaks of the spirit of the beast, as in an animal having a spirit. This makes sense when you look at James 2:26 which says a body is dead without a spirit. A spirit is like air - God breathed into Adam the breath of life. It's like the spiritual battery that makes a body work.

OK, basically, I'm saying that the Bible uses the word soul either to refer to a being as a whole or as a synonym for spirit. Just like the word is used in English. The Bible does not state that the soul ans spirit are two different immaterial entities within man (I don't know if you could call them spiritual entities, since a thrichotomist definition of the soul makes it not spiritual, yet not physical either). Another thing which points to this is how you mentioned that soul may be used as life. Spirit is often called life in the Bible as well, so what makes it different? The words soul, heart, spirit, etc. can be used to speak about different aspects of the human spirit or the human being, but that does not make them separate entities. Like a brain and liver and a kidney are still all parts of the body. You can't have a body and a liver separately.

Basically,

Dichotomy = Man essentially consists of two main parts: material and immaterial. The body refers to the material part in virtually all cases (except where Paul speaks of spiritual bodies). The spirit always refers to the immaterial part in the English translation (in Hebrew and Greek, the same word for spirit is used to speak of physical breath and wind as well). The soul can refer to either the whole or partial immaterial part of man or the whole of man. This latter usage is of particular importance to the resurrection; a soul is incomplete without a body.

Trichotomy = Man essentially consists of three separate entities: one material and two immaterial. The body refers to the material part. The soul and spirit refer to their respective immaterial entities. Most trichotomists will agree that soul may be used for being, but its primary meaning is one of the immaterial entities within man. A soul therefore is immortal and complete without the body. This understanding sometimes (but not often among trichotomist Christians who study their Bibles) leads to a smaller emphasis on the resurrection with some even believing the soul is better off without the body as Greek philosophers taught.

I listed one practical implication of both lines of thought, but there are more. :)

[anime4christ]

Does no one find it strange that when Saul used the witch to call up the "spirit" of Samuel she recognized him as "An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle." or when the rich man and the poor man died he was able in hell to see and recognize the beggar, he was able to feel thirst and the flame?
So how is it that the spirit spirit comes alive when saved, that after death the person is recognizable as they were on earth, that the spirit is dead in sin until we are saved and quickened through Christ?

But to put this to rest and as I always say: the bible says it and I believe it! To be whole we must be three. To be alive we must be three. In sin we are dead and only two.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No, you must have at least four parts:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. - Mark 12:30

Or we could string them all together: body, soul, spirit, heart, mind, strength, bowels.
Or perhaps they are grouped: materiel (body, consisting of physical heart, bowels, etc.) and immaterial (spirit, heart, soul, etc.) and the whole may be referred to as a soul, being, or person.

In any case, we may have many parts (as a body is not merely one part), but no separate entities. You are one entity, spiritually incomplete without God (spiritually dead), and physically incomplete without a body (physically dead). The material and immaterial split upon death and are reunited upon resurrection. At the judgment, those who died in their sins are forever separated from God and go to the Lake of Fire (the second death; which goes to prove that either death is still conscious; physical and spiritual) while the redeemed are united with God forever and therefore live forever.

[anime4christ]

I wasn't going for the original OP, just your request for a scripture for the following...


Can you back that up with a passage from Scripture that clearly teaches that? Trichotomy is a bad comparison to the Trinity. Jesus the body? The Holy Spirit the spirit? And the Father the soul? God is three persons, not three parts of one person, two immaterial, and one material. The comparison is just too crude.

I can give you one for Jesus...Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Yes, in Jesus, the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. It does not say that Jesus' role or position in the Trinity is analogous to the human body. That's what I wanted Scripture for and there is none which claims that.

[anime4christ]

This verse shows that a body dies when the spirit leaves it. If there really is such a thing as "out of body experiences" (I don't know) then you'd have a case where the soul left but the spirit was still there, and as a result the body was still alive. I've read stories of lost and saved people, on their deathbeds, reacting to the fires of Hell or the glory of Heaven while they were dying. It could be that their soul was experiencing eternity but the body was still alive on Earth because the spirit was still in the body.

An interesting note on out-of-body experiences is that many people who practice some form of witchcraft to get out of their bodies cannot practice it for more than 4 minutes at a time or risk forever being trapped outside their body (i.e. die). 4 minutes is about the time a body can survive without breath and heartbeat before the brain dies from lack of oxygen. This would lead me to believe that such an out-of-body experience would mean the spirit (and physical breath) are absent during the experience. Many out-of-body experiences documented happen during near-death experiences as well, when the spirit is once again, not present. Out-of-body experiences are very subjective however, and I don't know if they are real myself. Some of the occult out-of-body experiences may be produced by demons channeling sights and sounds to a practitioner from a far away place by a demon, not requiring the spirit to leave the body in such an experience. The near-death out-of-body experiences may be produced by the spirit actually observing things outside the body or may be even be a fantasy produced by an oxygen-deprived brain. We just don't know. However, an out-of-body experience, whether real or not, does not dictate dichotomy or trichotomy.

[Brother Rick]

If the soul and the spirit are the same thing then an animal has a soul in Ecclesiastes.

If the spirit is an air or wind like substance (John 3) that is given by God to humans and animals, then having a soul is what makes the difference between a human and an animal. A body without the spirit is dead in James.

A soul is clearly the individual, you can see that in the parable of the rich man in Hell and also the passages in Revelation that speaks of the souls under the altar that are awaiting the resurrection. A spirit is something different though. The Bible says that we are seated in heavenly places right now. Maybe our spirits are in us and also up in Heaven at the same time? It also says that we are joined to the Lord and to others by one spirit. I'm sure the Holy Spirit plays a part in that, but maybe it joins with our spirits and binds them all together like a giant surge protector. I don't know.

Paul said that he was alive without the law and then he died. He wasn't talking about physical death, it was spiritual in nature. It couldn't be the second death, that's at the Great White Throne Judgment. I see no where in Scripture where a soul dies. His soul didn't die, his spirit did. The same thing happened to Adam and Eve. God said, "The day you eat you will surely die." It wasn't the body, and it wasn't the soul, it was something else - the spirit.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[anime4christ]

If the soul and the spirit are the same thing then an animal has a soul in Ecclesiastes.

If the spirit is an air or wind like substance (John 3) that is given by God to humans and animals, then having a soul is what makes the difference between a human and an animal. A body without the spirit is dead in James.

A soul is clearly the individual, you can see that in the parable of the rich man in Hell and also the passages in Revelation that speaks of the souls under the altar that are awaiting the resurrection. A spirit is something different though. The Bible says that we are seated in heavenly places right now. Maybe our spirits are in us and also up in Heaven at the same time? It also says that we are joined to the Lord and to others by one spirit. I'm sure the Holy Spirit plays a part in that, but maybe it joins with our spirits and binds them all together like a giant surge protector. I don't know.

Paul said that he was alive without the law and then he died. He wasn't talking about physical death, it was spiritual in nature. It couldn't be the second death, that's at the Great White Throne Judgment. I see no where in Scripture where a soul dies. His soul didn't die, his spirit did. The same thing happened to Adam and Eve. God said, "The day you eat you will surely die." It wasn't the body, and it wasn't the soul, it was something else - the spirit.

the soul that sinneth, it shall die. - Ezekiel 18:4

Like I already said, the Bible uses the word soul in several ways. Sometimes it is talking about the whole person, and other times it is talking about the immaterial part of a person. You keep either missing one or the other, so let me make a point of that. When the word soul is used to refer to a person as a whole, obviously it is not talking merely about the spirit, and therefore has a different description than that of the spirit. However, when it is used to refer to the immaterial part of man, the description is identical to that of the spirit, although sometimes highlighting slightly different aspects.

When Paul said that he died when the law came, I don't think he meant that that was the point he actually died spiritually the way Adam and Eve did. Otherwise, we could have people go to heaven without coming to Christ as long as we never expose them to the law. I think Paul was speaking metaphorically there. We are all born spiritually dead (separated from God). The second death will be the continuation of that spiritual death for a person who was never born again, but in a live body.

As for animals, they are souls as well, just of a different kind. The words nephesh and ruach are both used by the Bible when talking about animals. If the Bible just uses the same word when talking about human and animal souls (the words "human" and "animal" defining the class of the soul), who are we to define the words differently? If soul is used for being, both are beings. If soul is used for spirit, both have spirits.

The pastor at the church I most often attend right now (thinking about switching to that church, not 100% decided yet) said that he believes that the original 12 apostles minus Judas plus Mathias are "big A Apostles" and then Paul is a "big A Apostle" while other apostles mentioned were "small a apostles", making a total of 13 "big A Apostles" and the rest "small a apostles". There are two problems with this: 1) Revelation says that New Jerusalem will have 12 foundations after the 12 apostles; will Mathias or Paul be the 12th big A Apostle in those foundations? You can't have both. 2) The whole New Testament was written in capital letters. The Bible does not make a distinction between "big A Apostles" and "small a apostles". It just says that there are "the twelve" and there are also other apostles. The twelve are those who will have their names on the foundations, and there will not be 13. However, the other apostles, such as Barnabas, are still no less apostles. My point in telling this story is not because it is a big doctrinal issue for me, but because the whole animals not having (actually being rather than having) a soul, first of all, contradicts the Bible, and second, arises from humans making distinctions where the Bible does not.

[John81]

While we may not be able to know for certain, it's likley that Paul is among the twelve apostles mentioned in Revelation. Mathias seems to have been selected in haste using questionable methods. Nothing more is said of Mathias in Scripture.

Paul, however, was chosen by the Lord Himself as were the original apostles.

Whatever the case may be, I don't see "big A" or "little a" apostles.

[Brother Rick]

Bro, if you look in earlier posts you'll see that I agree that soul can refer to the whole person, life, emotions, heart, etc. The soul that sinneth it shall die can refer to the person or maybe even the Second Death. The point is, it's not referring to what happened to Adam and Paul. What part of Adam died in the garden?

It's convenient that you say that Paul was speaking metaphorically when he said that he was alive without the law but when the commandment came sin revived and he died. Romans is the most detailed textbook on Church Age Christian doctrine and yet Paul didn't really mean it all too literally?

You're assuming that people are born spiritually dead. You believe that If a baby dies it goes to Heaven, right? It's not born spiritually dead and separated from God then - that happens later which is what Paul was talking about. The death of the spirit happens at the age of accountability.