What is Sin?

[Guest Guest]

Well said, Janet! "She-males" how true that is.

I am actually very disappointed that the "Women's Liberation" started to begin with. Look what they have done to us? :coffee

[Guest Guest]

Seth, could you tell me where you get the information on the "more like a suit coat"? And that a man had a shirt and pants under it??From my research, it seems they wore robes. A loose fiting, hanging garment that looked more like a dress than pants. The bedouin arabs dress that way to this day. My dad says he heard a pastor tell that he had visited I believe Saudi and say a man that had his robe messed up. Someone quickly got a different robe for him. He had a fit that it was a womens robe. The pastor said he could tell no differance in the two robes. It is my understanding that is the way the jews dressed. here is a link to a Rabbi that says in the old days everyone wore robes, but the mens were differant from the womens. http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askr ... othing.htm

They did wear a robe, but it was over everything else. Just go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism under the "Dress" section you will see that they wear much the same thing to this day, including the robe over the top, on the sabbath at least. If it was not acceptable to take the outer robe off in public in bible days how do you explain all those verse where they did do just that? They weren't going around with no clothes at all.

Also if you look up the greek word for the "coat" that Jesus wore, it means a under garment that is a tunic-shirt. The cloak or robe would normaly go over that, which is why it is an under garment. However, just as a suit coat goes over a dress shirt and can be taken off in public, the robe could be taken off too.

One other question, if the breeches were the same as our pants, what about the fact the Bible says they were to be from the loins unto the thigh. If this was a clothing that they wore outwardly to be seen, would that not mean it is acceptable before God for a man to preach wearing a pair of shorts that come to the top of their knee?? covering the loins unto the thigh.

Before God? Yes I believe so, culturally? Not so much. If I were a preacher in America I wouldn't do it because I know it would offend some people and in our culture it would show disrespect, but beyond that I morally wouldn't have a problem with it.

[JerryNumbers]

What is one of the most common things that happens in the work place today? An affair between and man and woman who are married to someone else.

That is another problem we have to deal with today, or should I say another temptation for both married man and married woman, that not many years back was not in place.

Sad things is we people know that we can have much more with two incomes, without them we can't keep up with the world, but should we even try to keep up with the world?

Did God create us to keep up with the world?

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalms 1:1-6 (KJV)

35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 104:35 (KJV)

10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

Prov 1:10 (KJV)

21 Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.

Prov 13:21 (KJV)

17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

Prov 23:17 (KJV)

28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:28 (KJV)

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 13:9 (KJV)

We have actually let those who care not the least bit about God lead us into their ways and wanting possession like they have and in getting them actually sacrifice God's ways.

Can't help but think of Lazarus, he died without medical care, without food, without shelter, how many of us are sacred we might be like him? But look what he had in paradise compare to what the rich man had in that other place.

[IM4given]

AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYMEN Bro. Jerry!

I think you have hit the nail on the head - people are living like the world because they are trying to keep up withthe world! That is what walking in the flesh is all about.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

The Bible teaches us what Christians are supposed to live like in Galationas Chapter 5



Galatians 5

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

So now I have to ask the question is it actually a SIN to be self-willed and walk in the flesh?

If Jesus really did die and ALL of our sins our covered - past present and future, why did Jesus himself command people to go and sin no more?

John 5:14 Afterward

[rancher824]

They did wear a robe, but it was over everything else. Just go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism under the "Dress" section you will see that they wear much the same thing to this day, including the robe over the top, on the sabbath at least. If it was not acceptable to take the outer robe off in public in bible days how do you explain all those verse where they did do just that? They weren't going around with no clothes at all.

Also if you look up the greek word for the "coat" that Jesus wore, it means a under garment that is a tunic-shirt. The cloak or robe would normaly go over that, which is why it is an under garment. However, just as a suit coat goes over a dress shirt and can be taken off in public, the robe could be taken off too.



Before God? Yes I believe so, culturally? Not so much. If I were a preacher in America I wouldn't do it because I know it would offend some people and in our culture it would show disrespect, but beyond that I morally wouldn't have a problem with it.

Seth, I note 2 things in the wikipedia acticle. 1: The 3rd paragraph starts out by telling us that their dress has changed in the past 100 years. Is says that in the 1900's they dressed more levantine, which has a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant . In the link there is a picture. Note the man standing (Muslim from Damascus) He is wearing the outer "suit coat" you are refering to, but he also has on a robe down to his ankles. I believe the writter of the article you gave was correct that this is more the way the jews would have been dressed. 2: Though this does not prove anything, I found it interesting. The writter says some believe that the sabbath dress is simular to the high priests from Bible times, but he does not see that.

Back to the Bible, I am having a hard time with your discription of breeches being something that would have been seen.

Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Exodus 28:42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

By paralleling these two verses, I come to one of two conclusions. Either, 1: The breeches were underwear that was not to be seen, as if I climb steps in my pants I am no more naked than if I did not climb steps. Or 2: Most men did not wear breeches, thus they should not climb the steps lest someome see up their skirt. Either way they could not have been the normal seen outer wear for the jewish man.

[IM4given]

I see some members posting here at OB that seem to be walking in the flesh rather than in the Spirit..... :sad :pray

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

emulation
EMULA'TION, n. The act of attempting to equal or excel in qualities or actions; rivalry; desire of superiority, attended with effort to attain to it; generally in a good sense, or an attempt to equal or excel others in that which is praise-worthy, without the desire of depressing others. Rom.11. In a bad sense, a striving to equal or do more than others to obtain carnal favors or honors. Val.5.


1. An ardor kindled by the praise-worthy examples of others, inciting to imitate them, or to equal or excel them.

A noble emulation heats your breast.

2. Contest; contention; strife; competition; rivalry accompanied with a desire of depressing another.

Such factious emulations shall arise.

[JerryNumbers]

Your not going to get answers to all questions by examining how all men dressed down thru the ages following the Bible days, nor how Arabs or any other group dressed of people, 100, 500, 1000, or even 1500 years ago does not prove how Abraham, Moses, Noah, David, dressed.

But one thing we know for sure, during the times Leviticus was inspired by God, both man and woman was probably wearing that which pertained to the other sex and God said it was an abomination. So we had better be careful and not do it, also very careful what conclusion we come to. There is only one source we can depend on 100%, that is the source that God inspired, "The Holy Bible."

IM4GIVEN, Yes, we people love the world and its ways, I include myself in that group, perhaps I'm the worse one in this group. We can have found so much comfort in the ways of this world, this comfort and prejudices we have gained by living this comfort this world offers us makes us not want to be a living sacrifice for our Father and Savior. How many of us will really give up any of the comfort we have for God's sake or to keep from being a stumbling block.

[IM4given]

[quote="Jerry80871852"]Your not going to get answers to all questions by examining how all men dressed down thru the ages following the Bible days, nor how Arabs or any other group dressed of people, 100, 500, 1000, or even 1500 years ago does not prove how Abraham, Moses, Noah, David, dressed.

But one thing we know for sure, during the times Leviticus was inspired by God, both man and woman was probably wearing that which pertained to the other sex and God said it was an abomination. So we had better be careful and not do it, also very careful what conclusion we come to. There is only one source we can depend on 100%, that is the source that God inspired, "The Holy Bible."

IM4GIVEN, Yes, we people love the world and its ways, I include myself in that group, perhaps I'm the worse one in this group. We can have found so much comfort in the ways of this world, this comfort and prejudices we have gained by living this comfort this world offers us makes us not want to be a living sacrifice for our Father and Savior. How many of us will really give up any of the comfort we have for God's sake or to keep from being a stumbling block.[/quote]

Do you think part of the problem is that there are so many greedy apostate preachers out there - I do not think you are one of them Bro. Jerry - but there are too many preachers with their Rolex watches driving around in their shiny new Caddilacs that are only preaching in a manner that keeps the money coming in to them, and they are not "stepping on the toes" of any of their congregations? Jesus preached with nothing but the clothes on his back and he walked everywhere he went - I wonder what He will say to these large mega churches with their Big Buildings and cushy seats, airconditioning, and every comfort under the sun? That money could have been used to feed the poor, it could have been used to clothe the naked, it could have been used to house the homeless, but instead they used it for their own comfort and pleasure.

The people who attend these Apostate churches think that as long as they come to church on Sundays then they are doing all right - even if they are living like the devil the other 6 days of the week. No one has bothered to tell them that there is more to being Chirstian than simply "loving thy neighbor" and they probably really don't want to hear the part about Sin and REPENTANCE and all that other Walk In the Spirit stuff. How dare any preacher (or anyone else for that matter) tell them that women wearing pants is WRONG! That is not a sin that is just being judgemental! That is just twisting scriptures - although they may have never even read their Bible - they don't even need to - just shine the words they want to read right up there on a big screen! And Joyce Meyers and many other christian women say that it is perfectly okay for women to preach, and women to wear pants, and all of that stuff, so that must be true or they would not print it, now would they? Lots of good Christian Women wear pants, and anyone who disagrees with them should just butt out. Those troublemakers are making them uncomfortable, and if it makes them uncomfortable they do not want to hear it. Jesus would not want them to be uncomfortable, now would he?

Sin creeps into a person's life a little bit at a time, even the finest Christians who are Walking in the Spirit have to struggle and fight the flesh to maintain the Spirit-filled life. Walking in the Spirit means denying the flesh, and it is never comfortable. It also means you are not going to blend in with the crowd anymore. People are going to KNOW you are one of God's people, they will be able to see the Spirit in you a mile away! You are going to let that light shine just like a beacon that leads the lost sinner straight to God. That makes you a living sacrafice, and it also makes you a target of satan. You are going to have to fight ever harder than before to maintain a Spirit Filled Christian Life, because satan ain't gonna like it and he will do what ever he can to hinder you. He can't gain your soul - you are already bought by the Blood of Jesus, but he will do everything he can to ruin your testimony and defeat your life.

So what will it hurt if you are going to the bars after work - it's okay to sit around and have a few drinks with your co-workers, right? Alcohol is not a sin. Or is it? It's okay to go out on one of those "free" casino cruises, as long as you don't do any gambling while you are there, right? Gambling is not a sin. Or is it? Let's go to a rock concert! Rock music is not a sin. Or is it?

Are you Walking in the Spirit when you do those things, or are you walking after the flesh? Are you causing other people to not see Jesus in you? Are lost people going to look at you and when you try to tell them about Jesus, are they going to think you are a hypocrite?

IMO, It is very important for Christians to not only know what sin is, but to know what sin is hindering them, and keeping them from Walking in the Spirit, and that they need to get down on their knees and ask God to forgive them for not walking in His Footsteps, and then to reprent - turn away from those things that hinder them (that is the hardest part of all!), so that they can know the Joy of Walking with Jesus.

[HappyChristian]

Janet, you mentioned drums in church in the same paragraph that you mentioned cross-dressing earlier. I just wanted to addresss some things about that.

Deut 22:5 tells us that the man or woman who puts on what pertains to the opposite sex is an abomination to God. Notice that He didn't say the act was abomination. He said the person is. This verse was given to the Israelites as a warning to not practice what the pagans did: exchanging clothes with the opposite sex before they went into their temples of worship.

The current argument in favor of pants on women is that some pants are made for women, so they are okay. And that men and women both wore robes in Bible times, just looking a little different...so as long as the pants are different, it's okay. And if we want to say women shouldn't wear pants, they shouldn't wear "panties" because breeches were underwear and only the priests wore them... :loco

As Christians, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. What are we doing dressing like the world wants us to? Dig deep into the history of pants on women here in America and you will see that it is based on rebellion - rebellion against a woman's God-designed role in marriage and socitey; rebellion against men as authority. Rebellion. Not something I want to be associated with.

For those interested, I've recommended this book before: The Fall and Rise of Christian Standards by David Kidd. [offtopic]Molly - just a note for you: my mom was struggling in much the same way you are with this issue (although my dad came down on the do what you want side). After she read this book, she stopped wearing pants altogether.[/offtopic] It's a very good book, and I think, no matter what you believe about pants on women, it would be an interesting read.

This is an example of command and principle that I was speaking about earlier. It's there. But many times we filter our beliefs about it through the world rather than the Word.

To the issue of drums...there are no guiding principles in the Bible regarding every drum. Abstaining from the appearance of evil and being separate from the world would apply to drum sets and bongos, but not to orchestral percussion - unless you want to eliminate triangles, tambourines (and they are specifically mentioned in the Bible as being instruments of praise), bells, cymbals (ditto from tambourines), etc. If a church has a God honoring orchestra, that is a much different animal than a praise band. MUCH! This is an example where command or principle does not state in black and white.

That's where we have to be careful. If scriptural command or principle is present, there is black and white. If it's not present, then, based on other principle, the leader (of the church or the home) is to make the decision as led by the Holy Spirit.

[IM4given]

:goodpost:

I agree 100% with your statement
[quote]As Christians, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. What are we doing dressing like the world wants us to? Dig deep into the history of pants on women here in America and you will see that it is based on rebellion - rebellion against a woman's God-designed role in marriage and socitey; rebellion against men as authority. Rebellion. Not something I want to be associated with.[/quote]

Now as for music in the church, if your music ministry has the same "sound" as a worldly Rock and Roll band, then I think it is wrong. Who cares if that is what the young people like? They have to learn that such music is not okay - and especially not okay in a house of worship! But that is just my own opinion I suppose.

People who make such decisions usually do not even consider praying about it, they just say - hey that sounds good! Let's do it! They filter it through the world as you said instead of filtering it through the Word fo God.

[HappyChristian]

[quote="IM4given"]:goodpost:

I agree 100% with your statement
[quote]As Christians, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. What are we doing dressing like the world wants us to? Dig deep into the history of pants on women here in America and you will see that it is based on rebellion - rebellion against a woman's God-designed role in marriage and socitey; rebellion against men as authority. Rebellion. Not something I want to be associated with.[/quote]

Now as for music in the church, if your music ministry has the same "sound" as a worldly Rock and Roll band, then I think it is wrong. Who cares if that is what the young people like? They have to learn that such music is not okay - and especially not okay in a house of worship! But that is just my own opinion I suppose. [color=#800000]Oh, I agree 100% (and would agree more, if there was more than 100%!!) That's what I've been saying all along. A godly orchestra doesn't sound like a rock and roll band. There is a major difference.[/color]

People who make such decisions usually do not even consider praying about it, they just say - hey that sounds good! Let's do it! They filter it through the world as you said instead of filtering it through the Word fo God. [color=#800000]And I would agree here - if a church decides to have a "praise and worship band" it is not done through true prayer - it is done to bring in the young people and make people "feel good."[/color][/quote]

You are exactly right! But that is the big difference between a church that has an orchestra that plays godly music, and a church that has the rock band and plays worldy music.

[IM4given]

I guess my limited experperience with drums in church, the musicians wore long hair and t-shirts and jeans and played just like a grunge-rock band, has led me to believe that there ought not to be any drums in church at all.

[HappyChristian]

I guess my limited experperience with drums in church' date=' the musicians wore long hair and t-shirts and jeans and played just like a grunge-rock band, has led me to believe that there ought not to be any drums in church at all.[/quote']

I have been in churches like that, too, and couldn't get away fast enough. I have even been in some where the musicians were clean cut...and you should have heard what they did with the piano!! Sounded like Jerry Lee Lewis or Mickey Gilley were on the platform!!

But I can truly attest to you, Janet, that I believe you would love our church - orchestra and all!! Our preacher is a man whose entire life revolves around pleasing God. If there were sin associated with the drums in our orchestra, believe me - they wouldn't be there!!!

[Guest Guest]

For those interested, I've recommended this book before: The Fall and Rise of Christian Standards by David Kidd. Offtopic: Molly - just a note for you: my mom was struggling in much the same way you are with this issue (although my dad came down on the do what you want side). After she read this book, she stopped wearing pants altogether. It's a very good book, and I think, no matter what you believe about pants on women, it would be an interesting read.

Thanks, LuAnne! I have heard this book mentioned on OB before (maybe by you---I can't recall). First, I will see if my FIL has it in his bookstore and/or my IFB church. If not, I will order it. Thanks, again. I really appreciate it. :smile

[JerryNumbers]

There is guiding principles for every thing in our life in the Bible, Jesus taught them daily in His few short years of ministry leading up to the cross, He was the perfect example of a living sacrifice. How many of us are truly a living sacrifice and have not conformed to the world?

Churches spend way to much money entertaining their self and building entertaining centers and space for entertaining . All of this money can be better spent in many other ways than entertaining church members.

I've noticed many of those who are into entertaining church members, playing music instruments & or singing & or comedy, hardly ever know much about God's true Word and feels most all churches should join together and set all differences aside.

<<"Do you think part of the problem is that there are so many greedy apostate preachers out there - I do not think you are one of them Bro. Jerry">>

Yes I do, but I might say I have to include all church members who support such a man in this as well, if no one would support such people they would soon fall by the way side. But of course we have many who will follow a false preaching and teaching who WOULD NEVER follow true Bible preaching or teaching and WOULD NEVER set thru a service in a true Bible teaching church.