Which wine is the good wine?

[DennisD]

Interesting note, John - VHavner died in 1986. His writings and sermons are still apropos 25 years later..

As to the OP - Grapes have a natural alcohol content in them - very slight, but it is there. That alcohol, once grapes have been juiced, helps in preservation but is not enough to cause someone to get drunk (unless they drink absolutely gallons of the stuff).

Fermentation is actually the rotting of fruit. It is hastened by the addition of yeast, thus making it possible for the drink not to sour. In Bible times, wine was either fresh squeezed or fermented. The longer it fermented, the more sour it got, thus becoming vinegar of wine.

I have never heard this before, are you certain? I tried to search on it but could not find anything confirming or denying. From those that I know who were involved in vineyards and wine making in the past they say there is no alcohol in grapes and that fermentation always involves man in some way.

As I was typing this I thought to look up something I vaguely remembered from Way of Life Encyclopedia:

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor's Note: One point of Patton's book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires input from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state.The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

[DennisD]

WOLE:

Now we come to the longest point in this entire study, but one which is most important, chiefly because so many insist that Jesus made and drank alcoholic wine.

5. Jesus did not drink or make alcoholic wine. Here are ten proofs from Scripture.

The first reason is because of His holy nature. In Heb 7:26, we read that the Lord Jesus is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners." No doubt, the Saviour, being God in the flesh, had an air of holiness about Himself that could be seen by even the most casual observer. For instance, the profane soldiers, who were sent to arrest Him, gave as their reason for returning without Him, that "never a man spake like this man." (Joh 7:46) The words of Jesus were different; He, no doubt, had a very holy appearance, character, and speech. Why is this so important? Consider this illustration. The word "cider" may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of "his very own cider," we would assume that the holy person's was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer's cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does. Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.

A second reason: He would not contradict scripture. In Mt 5:17-18, Christ made this clear, saying, "Think not that I am come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Christ could not have contradicted Hab 2:15, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"

Certainly, Jesus knew that this verse was in the Bible; He was well-acquainted with Scripture, since it is His Word and was written about Him. He did not come to violate Scripture, but to fulfill it. He could not have done so, if He had made alcoholic wine and had given it to his neighbor.

Some people object to the use of this verse by saying that it would apply only to one who would give his neighbor drink for the purpose of looking on his nakedness. But we must remember: when one gives his neighbor something which will make him drunk, he is putting himself in the very class of those who do so in order to look on their nakedness. And since the Scripture commands us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1Th 5:22), we can be sure that the Lord Jesus would not have done something that would have been associated with such an evil practice as that described in Hab 2:15. For the same reason, no Christian should be engaged in the selling of alcoholic beverage.

The third reason is that Le 10:9-11 commands the priest of God, "Do not drink wine nor strong drink ... that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statues which the Lord hath spoken..." Now, since Heb 2:17 calls Christ "a merciful and faithful high priest," we would expect Him to obey all Scriptures pertaining to that office. If He had made or drunk alcoholic wine, He would have disobeyed these verses and would have been disqualified from teaching the children of Israel the statues of the Lord.

The fourth reason is found in a passage which we have already considered:Pr 31:4-5 prohibits kings and princes from drinking alcoholic wine or any other strong drink. If they had done so, their judgment would have been perverted. It was necessary for Christ to obey these verses also, since He was Prince of Peace (Isa 9:6) and King of Kings (Re 19:16). In Mt 27:11, He admitted to being the King of the Jews. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey's colt, to fulfill Zec. 9:9, which prophesied that Israel's king would enter the city in just that way. Undoubtedly, He was king, and as such, would have had to obey Pr 31:4-5.

Reason five: Christ did not come to mock or deceive people, yet Pr 20:1 says that wine does both. Rather than coming to mock or deceive he came to save!

Reason six: He did not come to send people to Hell. We have already seen that Isa 5:11-14 teaches that Hell had to be enlarged because of the drinking of alcoholic beverage. Christ did not come to send people to Hell; listen to Joh 3:17: "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Reason seven: Christ did not come to cast a stumblingblock before anyone; yet, Ro 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two "social" drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord's table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic's grave!

I certainly would not want my children to get their first taste of alcohol at the family meal; nor would I want them to get it at church. One or more of them could well be potential alcoholics. As evidence that this is possible, we should consider that some denominations which serve alcoholic wine in their religious services also operate homes for alcoholic priests!

But we can be absolutely sure that Christ did not come to cause others to stumble!

The eighth reason: John 2, the miracle of turning water into wine, does not require that it be alcoholic. Many insist that it was, on the basis of verse 10, which says, "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now." They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men's tastes have been dulled by much drinking. But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic.

Reason nine is found in the same passage: the Lord Jesus Christ would not have gotten glory from making drunk people drunker. Verse 11 is most important when it states that, by this miracle, Jesus "manifested forth his glory." Verse 10 indicates that the people had drunk quite a bit of whatever kind of wine they were drinking. If it had been alcoholic, they would have been intoxicated, or nearly so. Had Christ made alcoholic wine, He would have made drunk people drunker, or almost-drunk people completely drunk! Such a deed would certainly not have manifested any glory to Him!

This chapter also gives us the tenth reason: making drunk people drunker would not have caused his disciples to believe more strongly on him, yet verse 11 says that, as a result of what He did in turning the water into wine, "his disciples believed on him." Joh 1:41 shows that they had already believed on Him as Messiah; this was a deepening of their faith and a proof that they had not been wrong. Would making drunk people drunker inspire such faith? The opposite would be likely! They were not looking for a Messiah who would pass out free booze! Thus, because of the description of this miracle and its result, we can not conclude otherwise than that this wine was non-alcoholic.

[DennisD]

In closing, we must consider two things. One passage, we have already seen. Ro 14:21 clearly teaches that Christians should totally abstain, the reason being that it is good "neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." We have already seen that people may be potential alcoholics. By the social drinking of alcohol, one might encourage a person to start drinking, who would not be able to stop. Missionaries and tourists to foreign countries, where alcohol is a common table beverage, should remember this. We should also wake up and realize that, in such countries, alcoholism is also rampant. Let us totally abstain, so that we might not encourage someone to drink and go down the road to alcoholism.

The last consideration is 1Co 6:9-10. Here, the Bible teaches that drunkenness will send a person to hell. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

This does not mean that a drunkard can never be saved, because the next verse says that some of the Corinthians committed these very acts before they were converted. A person can be gloriously set free from drunkenness, by receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and by following His teachings. Many people have experienced such a release! But the tragedy is that if a person continues in drunkenness, refusing to let Jesus be the Lord, preferring rather to let king alcohol rule, that one can look for nothing but a drunkard's grave and eternity in the lake of fire. "Be not deceived," the Bible says "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

If you are having trouble with this sin, let me encourage you to realize that you can ask Jesus Christ to be the Lord of your life and Saviour from all your sins, and to set you free. You can know what it means to be free in Christ! The Bible says, "If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (Joh 8:36). Realize that you are a sinner in God's sight, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23). Repent of your rebellion against God, surrendering to His authority. "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Lu 13:3). Receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour. "As many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God" (Joh 1:12).

[DennisD]

WHAT ABOUT 1Ti 5:23? "...drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." Many insist that here the Bible gives the privilege, if not a command, of using alcoholic wine as a medicine. However, this cannot possibly be referring to alcoholic wine, because he specifically says that it is to be taken for Timothy's stomach. He obviously had some kind of stomach disease and any doctor will tell you that such a person must abstain from alcoholic beverage. This author has had much stomach trouble through the years and has consulted various doctors, observing various dietary restrictions. In every case, they warned against drinking any alcoholic beverage whatsoever. If we know that today, surely the Holy Spirit of God knew that when He inspired this verse! We do not know what Timothy's specific infirmities were, nor do we know what kind of healing properties there were in grape juice. Maybe Paul was saying that Timothy should not drink the water, since in many parts of the world it is not pure and would cause a healthy person to have trouble from amoebas, etc. One who already had stomach problems would only multiply them by drinking impure water. Paul might have been recommending that Timothy drink grape juice only. In any case, we can be positive that he was not telling him to put alcohol in a bad stomach!

IS IT ALRIGHT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO DRINK MODERATELY? (1) No, even slight drinking impairs one's thinking and lowers alertness to spiritual danger (1Pe 5:8-9). (2) No, Christians are not to be controlled by liquor (Eph 5:18). (3) No, Christians are priests, and the Bible forbids priests to drink (1Pe 2:9; Le 10:8,11). (4) No, Christians are not to touch the unclean thing (2Co 6:17-7:1). (5) No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (1Th 5:22). (6) No, Christians who drink cause others to stumble (Ro 14:21). (7) No, wine is a mocker and a deceiver (Pr 20:1). No man who takes an alcoholic beverage to his lips knows exactly where it will lead.

[heartstrings]

I have never heard this before, are you certain? I tried to search on it but could not find anything confirming or denying. From those that I know who were involved in vineyards and wine making in the past they say there is no alcohol in grapes and that fermentation always involves man in some way.

As I was typing this I thought to look up something I vaguely remembered from Way of Life Encyclopedia:

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor's Note: One point of Patton's book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires input from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state.The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

By saying "not strictly a natural process", you seem to be saying that natural process is part of the equation. Then you say that "God didn't make it". Didn't God make all of the natural processes?


I found this on Wikipedia.........

The natural occurrence of fermentation means it was probably first observed long ago by humans.[3] The earliest uses of the word "Fermentation" in relation to winemaking was in reference to the apparent "boiling" within the must that came from the anaerobic reaction of the yeast to the sugars in the grape juice and the release of carbon dioxide. The Latin fervere means, literally, to boil. In the mid-19th century, Louis Pasteur noted the connection between yeast and the process of the fermentation in which the yeast act as catalyst and mediator through a series of a reaction that convert sugar into alcohol. The discovery of the Embden–Meyerhof–Parnas pathway by GustAV Embden, Otto Fritz Meyerhof and Jakub Karol Parnas in the early 20th century contributed more to the understanding of the complex chemical processes involved in the conversion of sugar to alcohol.[4]

"Bloom", visible as a dusting on the berries, contains waxes and yeasts.In winemaking, there are distinctions made between ambient yeasts which are naturally present in wine cellars, vineyards and on the grapes themselves (sometimes known as a grape's "bloom" or "blush")

[DennisD]

Well, first...I didn't "say" it...it came from a Way of Life Encyclopedia post I had vaguely remembered reading awhile ago. Two, it seems to say it's NOT a natural process which means God didn't make it. If strictly means there are some natural processes involved then you might be right...I would assume the small part that would be considered natural is the "time" portion of making alcoholic wine.

Be careful of Wikipedia, while we could say the same about WOL Encyclopedia...I'd rather take the opinions/facts from that before Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone with a computer.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Do you mean by this that you believe it is sinful for Christians to drink alcohol but not sinful for Christians to ply lost people with alcohol?

That is not what I mean at all.

Those who are lost are going to seek after the things of the world, and will have no problem finding it in the world. Christians are to pattern themselves after Christ. There is not one instance in the Word of God where either He or His Apostles gave alcohol to anyone. They would not give alcohol to anyone because of the woe pronounced upon those who do in Habakkuk 2:15. Edited May 17, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

DennisD,

I recommend an excellent book by Leighton G. Campbell, titled "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence". It has many resources, including quotes from William Patton's book "Bible Wines", David Wilkerson's "Sipping Saints", and other books.

[Alimantado]

That is not what I mean at all.

Those who are lost are going to seek after the things of the world, and will have no problem finding it in the world. Christians are to pattern themselves after Christ. There is not one instance in the Word of God where either He or His Apostles gave alcohol to anyone. They would not give alcohol to anyone because of the woe pronounced upon those who do in Habakkuk 2:15.

Thanks for response--sorry for misunderstanding. So are you saying that those verses in Proverbs 31 are a sort of commentary on what people tend to do with drink?

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

[mattd]

Psalm 104

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

I think the prevading teachings of scripture are that alcohol in and of itself is ok and is in fact a gift from God that benefits man when used properly.

Jesus turned water into wine. Not grape juice or "unalcoholic wine" (which is grape juice -- right?). The passage is very clear that the party was drinking and that the wine Jesus made was of a better quality than that which they had been drinking -- not a different beverage altogether from that which they had been drinking. It is vain to suggests otherwise. Look to the luna.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Thanks for response--sorry for misunderstanding. So are you saying that those verses in Proverbs 31 are a sort of commentary on what people tend to do with drink?

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Proverbs 20:1 tells us that wine is a mocker and a deceiver.

Wine will cause the one who drinks it to think he is not drunk when he actually is... even if it is only slightly drunk. (Is there really such a thing as slightly drunk? drunk is drunk. Saying one is slightly drunk is like saying someone is slightly pregnant)

Proverbs 31 tells us it is not for kings to drink. Why not? Lest they forget the law.... Because of the deceiving qualities of alcohol, it could easily take the mind before one realizes it. I have spoken to many who say they stop as soon as they feel a little lightheaded so they don't get drunk. That is preposterous! If they are lightheaded after drinking, they are already drunk; maybe not falling down drunk, but they are drunk nonetheless.

The Wisdom of Solomon's instructions are kings and princes are not to drink at all.

Are we not kings according to the Word of God? Then, it is not for us to drink alcoholic beverages.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Psalm 104

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

I think the prevading teachings of scripture are that alcohol in and of itself is ok and is in fact a gift from God that benefits man when used properly.

Jesus turned water into wine. Not grape juice or "unalcoholic wine" (which is grape juice -- right?). The passage is very clear that the party was drinking and that the wine Jesus made was of a better quality than that which they had been drinking -- not a different beverage altogether from that which they had been drinking. It is vain to suggests otherwise. Look to the luna.

In Bible times, the pure juice of the grape was also called wine. Scientest today will tell you that there is an ingredient found in grape juice that is beneficial to one's heart and health. That ingredient is called reservatrol. While reservatrol is retained in the modern wines, the modern wines also contain toxins that are harmful to vital organs. That is why alcoholic beverages are known as intoxicants. They are toxic to the body. Drinking alcohol for one's health is like drinking a sugar free pepsi while eating a jar of Kraft Marshmallow Kreme.

Since wines in Bible times were both alcoholic and non alcoholic, I would venture to say that the wine that maketh glad the heart was nothing more than the pure blood of the grape.

The wine that Jesus made could not have been alcoholic or He would have been adding to men's drunkenness.... disqualifying Him as the sinless sacrifice needed to die for mankind. Edited May 17, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[DennisD]

Psalm 104

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

I think the prevading teachings of scripture are that alcohol in and of itself is ok and is in fact a gift from God that benefits man when used properly.

Jesus turned water into wine. Not grape juice or "unalcoholic wine" (which is grape juice -- right?). The passage is very clear that the party was drinking and that the wine Jesus made was of a better quality than that which they had been drinking -- not a different beverage altogether from that which they had been drinking. It is vain to suggests otherwise. Look to the luna.

Better as in fresh grape juice.

[Alimantado]

Proverbs 20:1 tells us that wine is a mocker and a deceiver.

Wine will cause the one who drinks it to think he is not drunk when he actually is... even if it is only slightly drunk. (Is there really such a thing as slightly drunk? drunk is drunk. Saying one is slightly drunk is like saying someone is slightly pregnant)

Proverbs 31 tells us it is not for kings to drink. Why not? Lest they forget the law.... Because of the deceiving qualities of alcohol, it could easily take the mind before one realizes it. I have spoken to many who say they stop as soon as they feel a little lightheaded so they don't get drunk. That is preposterous! If they are lightheaded after drinking, they are already drunk; maybe not falling down drunk, but they are drunk nonetheless.

The Wisdom of Solomon's instructions are kings and princes are not to drink at all.

Are we not kings according to the Word of God? Then, it is not for us to drink alcoholic beverages.

Many thanks for taking the time to respond but you haven't fully answered my query because you have dealt with the first two lines I've quoted and not the second two. I'm specifically interested in the instruction 'give'. What's being said there? Is someone being told they should give wine? If so, who is supposed to be doing the giving? And if not, what does 'give' mean in this sentence?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Many thanks for taking the time to respond but you haven't fully answered my query because you have dealt with the first two lines I've quoted and not the second two. I'm specifically interested in the instruction 'give'. What's being said there? Is someone being told they should give wine? If so, who is supposed to be doing the giving? And if not, what does 'give' mean in this sentence?

In dealing with this passage, one must realize that Lemuel is not a saved man. Salvation is through faith and trust in Christ and His finished work at Calvary and His ultimate resurrection from the dead. That is what brings Salvation to all men. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

That said, Lemuel's mother was giving him permission to give fermented drink to one who was condemned. (We see this practice being used at the crucifixion when the soldier offered Jesus wine mixed with gall,... which Jesus refused)

But Christians are not to give that which makes men drunkards to anyone. We are ambassadors of Christ, not emissaries of satan. Edited May 18, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ