Which wine is the good wine?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Did Jesus turn the water into fermented wine?

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Which wine is the "good wine"?

The parable of the wine and the wineskins

the parable is recorded in Matthew 9:16, Mark 2:22, and Luke 5:37-39. Let's look at Luke's passage:

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

In Luke's passage, Jesus was illustrating that legalism and Grace could not be mixed. The Pharisees had to change their old system completely to receive Jesus' message. J. Dwight Pentecost wrote:

The parables clearly indicate that Christ did not come to reform an old worn-out system but to introduce something new... rather, what he was introducing had to be an entirely separated from the old. The incident closed with Christ's words that if men would taste his wine, that is, if they would except what he was offering them, they would not want the old. However, the Pharisees, having tasted the old, were satisfied with it; they had no desire for what he was offering them.

It is clear from the parable that the new wine in the bottles was unfermented, for were the wine already fermented no significant change in the wind could have taken place two cause the bottles to burst. If the intention was to have fermented wine, then the wind would have been permitted to ferment significantly enough before sealing the bottles. Thus eliminating the problem of the skins breaking.

In light of the passage, the intention must have been to keep the new one (unfermented grape juice)in the bottles from fermenting, ensuring that the bottles would not break. The Rev. B. Parsons states:

The Art required was to keep the new wine from fermenting, not to keep the bottles from bursting.

Concerning the old bottles, Parsons explains:

the difference between the new bottles and the old consisted not in the relative proportion of their strength; but arose solely from the fact that the new bottles had in them know fermentable matter.

Think about it. If new wine was poured into old bottles the particles of yeast in the old bottles would cause the wine to ferment and burst the bottles. The goal therefore was to keep the wine sweet and unfermented, so new bottles were used. This lines up perfectly with Christ's parable, because his teaching must remain uncorrupted.... Both are preserved.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Grapes have a natural yeast which will ferment the juice naturally. This is seen as the bloom on a grape. When put into a fresh wineskin the juice will naturally ferment, giving off carbon dioxide and expanding the skin. This is why the scripture says you would not put new wine into old skins and the new fermentation would burst the skins. Vinegar is formed when a vinegar fly gets into the wine intoducing a bacteria which turns the alcohol in the wine to vinegar. The word vinegar comes from the French, vin = wine and aigre = sour, sweet and sour in French is aigre-doux. These days, yeast is extracted from the grapes and purified and makes a stronger on "purer" wine.

I would say that new wine in the scripture is unfermented and old wine is after it has naturally fermented in the skins. Lu 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
However, Ac 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. may mean fermented, but not matured, wine.

I am not sure that fermenting can be described as rotting. It is the same process that makes bread and we would not call that rotting, but preserving, If you have ever made sourdough bread you are using the same process. You add water to flour and let it ferment, you feed it with more flour and water until tou have enough yeast then you add it to the flour to make your bread. ( I tried it once and failed miserably.) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm The sour dough would be the leaven in scripture.

I do not believe new wine fermented in new wineskins. Jesus said "both are preserved." The skins are preserved and the new wine is also preserved.

My previous post explains this.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. - Proverbs 31:6

Does the Bible contradict itself, or does it have principles which are to applied differently in different contexts? Drunkenness is foolish and often results in sin, but drinking wine is never said to be wrong or sin. That said, what is the motive for drinking? This can often be the part that is sinful for many people who want to drink, but not always.

Are God's people 'ready to perish'? Scripture tells me Jesus came so we would not perish. Give strong drink to those ready to perish... those that reject the new wine.

[heartstrings]

Are God's people 'ready to perish'? Scripture tells me Jesus came so we would not perish. Give strong drink to those ready to perish... those that reject the new wine.

Even Christians die in horrible pain from time to time do they not? Today they administer things like Morphine to patients dying from cancer. But do you reckon they had modern anesthetics back in Bible times? Or would they have used "strong drink"? If I'm in agony, I want me something strong don't you? Isn't that what it's referring to?

[heartstrings]

The parable of the wine and the wineskins

the parable is recorded in Matthew 9:16, Mark 2:22, and Luke 5:37-39. Let's look at Luke's passage:

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

In Luke's passage, Jesus was illustrating that legalism and Grace could not be mixed. The Pharisees had to change their old system completely to receive Jesus' message. J. Dwight Pentecost wrote:

The parables clearly indicate that Christ did not come to reform an old worn-out system but to introduce something new... rather, what he was introducing had to be an entirely separated from the old. The incident closed with Christ's words that if men would taste his wine, that is, if they would except what he was offering them, they would not want the old. However, the Pharisees, having tasted the old, were satisfied with it; they had no desire for what he was offering them.

It is clear from the parable that the new wine in the bottles was unfermented, for were the wine already fermented no significant change in the wind could have taken place two cause the bottles to burst. If the intention was to have fermented wine, then the wind would have been permitted to ferment significantly enough before sealing the bottles. Thus eliminating the problem of the skins breaking.

In light of the passage, the intention must have been to keep the new one (unfermented grape juice)in the bottles from fermenting, ensuring that the bottles would not break. The Rev. B. Parsons states:

The Art required was to keep the new wine from fermenting, not to keep the bottles from bursting.

Concerning the old bottles, Parsons explains:

the difference between the new bottles and the old consisted not in the relative proportion of their strength; but arose solely from the fact that the new bottles had in them know fermentable matter.

Think about it. If new wine was poured into old bottles the particles of yeast in the old bottles would cause the wine to ferment and burst the bottles. The goal therefore was to keep the wine sweet and unfermented, so new bottles were used. This lines up perfectly with Christ's parable, because his teaching must remain uncorrupted.... Both are preserved.

Yes, your explanation about the new wine and the bursting bottles is valid. But you're missing the point. Verse 39 is saying that men prefer the"old wine" , saying it was "better."..The old wine was ALREADY fermented.

old wine-fermented=better-men like
The ruler of the feast liked what was better...He said it was the good wine.
I don't know man, I'm still missing something. I'm trusting God will show it to me.. :icon_pray:

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Yes, your explanation about the new wine and the bursting bottles is valid. But you're missing the point. Verse 39 is saying that men prefer the"old wine" , saying it was "better."..The old wine was ALREADY fermented.

old wine-fermented=better-men like
The ruler of the feast liked what was better...He said it was the good wine.
I don't know man, I'm still missing something. I'm trusting God will show it to me..

My brother that died in 2006 preferred alcohol rather than grape juice. He died a drunkard with cirrhosis of the liver.

The fact is, alcohol deceives. It will deceive a person who is drinking it into preferring it rather than something that is healthy for them.

[JerryNumbers]

My brother that died in 2006 preferred alcohol rather than grape juice. He died a drunkard with cirrhosis of the liver.

The fact is, alcohol deceives. It will deceive a person who is drinking it into preferring it rather than something that is healthy for them.

I have been told that drinking in itself is not the main cause of cirrhosis of the liver, what causes it most times is the drinker drinks, and does not eat.

I once knew a pastor that had a drinking problem, big time, which I got to know him after the fact, visiting him several times during two different hospital stays because of the damage to his body from his binges.

Most like him are binge drinkers, and when they start they seem to want to only drink, and leave off eating.

It was sad to see this man destroy his self in this manner, he was very sharp on the Bible and could deliver a great message. I've lost contact with him often wonder how he is making it.

No doubt, drinking is a killer in many different ways.

[JerryNumbers]

If someone makes a farfetched or dubious statement that I as a Christian find hard to believe, then certainly a lost man, unless he is gullible, isn't going to buy it either. If you tell me stuff like "But you see....the wine wasn't as alcoholic 2000 years ago as it is today" or you tell me "the wine Jesus made was non alcoholic wine" Those are statements which have not been backed up to my satisfaction.. Until an archaeologist digs up a bottle of Mogen David from the year 33AD, we don't know how much alcohol content it had do we? I mean really? The second statement may be possible to be substantiated but I see that you have avoided it again and changed the subject. And no....sir we are not leaving off the truth here, we are trying to get at it....I want to be able to give the right answer to the question.

I DONT WANT the wine, that Jesus made, to have been alcoholic......

If I understand you properly, we are on the same side of this issue, I don't believe that Jesus made alcoholic wine and that is the stand I will take no matter who is present.