Which wine is the good wine?

[heartstrings]

Did Jesus turn the water into fermented wine?

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Which wine is the "good wine"?

Edited May 13, 2011 by heartstrings

[JerryNumbers]

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Question, do you think Jesus approves of drinking alcoholic drink?

[heartstrings]

I believe this....
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 20:1


But that doesn't answer my question.

[JerryNumbers]

If wine is a mocker why would Jesus provide wine that has alcohol within it for people to drink?

[John81]

I was listening to a sermon this morning by Vance Havner and he was pointing out how many Christians today no longer take the biblical stands they once did. One of his examples was pointing out that men like Jones and Sunday used to take on the booze industry head on. Today few will even speak against drinking alcohol. In fact, Havner stated, it seems many Christians today must have "stomach problems" because they want to drink alcohol and then point out that Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach ailment.

[heartstrings]

I agree with you, John.
Jerry, I can't honestly deal with that question, until I have an answer for the first.

[HappyChristian]

Interesting note, John - VHavner died in 1986. His writings and sermons are still apropos 25 years later..

As to the OP - Grapes have a natural alcohol content in them - very slight, but it is there. That alcohol, once grapes have been juiced, helps in preservation but is not enough to cause someone to get drunk (unless they drink absolutely gallons of the stuff).

Fermentation is actually the rotting of fruit. It is hastened by the addition of yeast, thus making it possible for the drink not to sour. In Bible times, wine was either fresh squeezed or fermented. The longer it fermented, the more sour it got, thus becoming vinegar of wine.

Did Jesus make fermented wine? There is no way for anyone (including proponents of moderate drinking for Christians, based on the mantra that Jesus obviously drank since He made wine) to be absolutely certain. But based on Biblical principle, I would have to say no, the wine was not fermented. God says it's not wise to look on wine when it's color is in the cup, when it moves itself aright...that is referencing the highest alcohol content which (or the completion of fermentation), is evident to wine makers (especially those who make it at home) because the "mother" moves almost as if it's alive. Jesus wouldn't create something for a group of people to consume that God says is unwise...

[heartstrings]

Interesting note, John - VHavner died in 1986. His writings and sermons are still apropos 25 years later..

As to the OP - Grapes have a natural alcohol content in them - very slight, but it is there. That alcohol, once grapes have been juiced, helps in preservation but is not enough to cause someone to get drunk (unless they drink absolutely gallons of the stuff).

Fermentation is actually the rotting of fruit. It is hastened by the addition of yeast, thus making it possible for the drink not to sour. In Bible times, wine was either fresh squeezed or fermented. The longer it fermented, the more sour it got, thus becoming vinegar of wine.

Did Jesus make fermented wine? There is no way for anyone (including proponents of moderate drinking for Christians, based on the mantra that Jesus obviously drank since He made wine) to be absolutely certain. But based on Biblical principle, I would have to say no, the wine was not fermented. God says it's not wise to look on wine when it's color is in the cup, when it moves itself aright...that is referencing the highest alcohol content which (or the completion of fermentation), is evident to wine makers (especially those who make it at home) because the "mother" moves almost as if it's alive. Jesus wouldn't create something for a group of people to consume that God says is unwise...

That has always been my thinking on ot too, Happy.

There is no way for anyone ..... to be absolutely certain.

That is the part that concerns me. You see I was talking with a lost man the other day, a very intelligent man whose son was my best buddy in high school. He is retired a medical technologist and his son is now a pathologist. When he brought up the subject of Jesus turning the water into wine, I just let him talk and said nothing. The reason I said nothing was because I couldn't truthfully give him the story about the wine being really grape juice. So instead of telling the man a story I wasn't so sure of myself, I went home to study it. I don't drink and want to believe that it was really grape juice, but the part that God put in me when I got saved, loves the truth and seeks truth. I realize that sometimes, the truth is more than I can handle, but I still want ot know; and if it is not what I want to think it is, then I want to know the "why" of that as well. Am I making sense? Then I can talk to the man with honesty and authority.

Below is a part of the passage that I don't understand and I wonder if it is the key to understanding this......

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Why did Jesus say this and what does it have to do with "they have no wine"?

[HappyChristian]

I do understand, heart. That first miracle is something that many people try to twist into whatever they want it to be.

The only way we can really explain whether the wine was like grape juice or not is to rely on Biblical principle. There is only one place where strong drink is recommended, but in all other places God emphatically lets us know it isn't wise.

The fact that Jesus the Son and God the Father are one would necessitate that Jesus would not create something God warns against.

Then, too, there is the fact that fresh squeezed grape juice is very much tastier than wine - in any stage of its fermentation. The reaction of the governor of the feast would strongly indicate that it was the flavor of the wine he was referencing, not the content of the alcohol. [later scripture telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake would indicate that the wine was actually grape juice: grape juice has stomach soothing properties that are not present if there is high alcohol content - the alcohol actually causes more stomach problems, not alleviates - and would bear up principles found in the OT]

As to Jesus' answer to Mary - when she came to Him, even though He had not performed a miracle yet, I believe Mary knew that Jesus could handle the situation. Remember, she watched Him grow up, and even if she had pushed it into her subconscious, she knew Who His Father is! His time would most likely be the public beginning of His ministry and miracles. I say most likely because, again, there is not anything certain that can be said!

[Guest]

I do understand, heart. That first miracle is something that many people try to twist into whatever they want it to be.

The only way we can really explain whether the wine was like grape juice or not is to rely on Biblical principle. There is only one place where strong drink is recommended, but in all other places God emphatically lets us know it isn't wise.

The fact that Jesus the Son and God the Father are one would necessitate that Jesus would not create something God warns against.

Then, too, there is the fact that fresh squeezed grape juice is very much tastier than wine - in any stage of its fermentation. The reaction of the governor of the feast would strongly indicate that it was the flavor of the wine he was referencing, not the content of the alcohol. [later scripture telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake would indicate that the wine was actually grape juice: grape juice has stomach soothing properties that are not present if there is high alcohol content - the alcohol actually causes more stomach problems, not alleviates - and would bear up principles found in the OT]

As to Jesus' answer to Mary - when she came to Him, even though He had not performed a miracle yet, I believe Mary knew that Jesus could handle the situation. Remember, she watched Him grow up, and even if she had pushed it into her subconscious, she knew Who His Father is! His time would most likely be the public beginning of His ministry and miracles. I say most likely because, again, there is not anything certain that can be said!

THe above is what I have been taught too. It makes sense based on what little there is to refute it in scripture. I'm not a drinker and I don't like references to "like a drunken sailor," I'm not one and many I new were not either.

[Anon]

I always understood "new wine" to be freshly squeezed grape juice. Due to lack of refrigeration, it would age and then taste bad after awhile (or ferment).

Also sometimes for feasts they would dilute the juice with water to make it go farther, later on as the feast would go on...Jesus gave fresh, full, undiluted juice instead of watered down stuff, so it tasted better.

[JerryNumbers]

And I've heard some claim it tasted better because they were now drunk from drinking the old alcoholic wine.

[Invicta]

Interesting note, John - VHavner died in 1986. His writings and sermons are still apropos 25 years later..

As to the OP - Grapes have a natural alcohol content in them - very slight, but it is there. That alcohol, once grapes have been juiced, helps in preservation but is not enough to cause someone to get drunk (unless they drink absolutely gallons of the stuff).

Fermentation is actually the rotting of fruit. It is hastened by the addition of yeast, thus making it possible for the drink not to sour. In Bible times, wine was either fresh squeezed or fermented. The longer it fermented, the more sour it got, thus becoming vinegar of wine.

Did Jesus make fermented wine? There is no way for anyone (including proponents of moderate drinking for Christians, based on the mantra that Jesus obviously drank since He made wine) to be absolutely certain. But based on Biblical principle, I would have to say no, the wine was not fermented. God says it's not wise to look on wine when it's color is in the cup, when it moves itself aright...that is referencing the highest alcohol content which (or the completion of fermentation), is evident to wine makers (especially those who make it at home) because the "mother" moves almost as if it's alive. Jesus wouldn't create something for a group of people to consume that God says is unwise...

Grapes have a natural yeast which will ferment the juice naturally. This is seen as the bloom on a grape. When put into a fresh wineskin the juice will naturally ferment, giving off carbon dioxide and expanding the skin. This is why the scripture says you would not put new wine into old skins and the new fermentation would burst the skins. Vinegar is formed when a vinegar fly gets into the wine intoducing a bacteria which turns the alcohol in the wine to vinegar. The word vinegar comes from the French, vin = wine and aigre = sour, sweet and sour in French is aigre-doux. These days, yeast is extracted from the grapes and purified and makes a stronger on "purer" wine.

I would say that new wine in the scripture is unfermented and old wine is after it has naturally fermented in the skins. Lu 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
However, Ac 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. may mean fermented, but not matured, wine.

I am not sure that fermenting can be described as rotting. It is the same process that makes bread and we would not call that rotting, but preserving, If you have ever made sourdough bread you are using the same process. You add water to flour and let it ferment, you feed it with more flour and water until tou have enough yeast then you add it to the flour to make your bread. ( I tried it once and failed miserably.) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm The sour dough would be the leaven in scripture. Edited May 13, 2011 by Invicta

[John81]

Some good posts here From my understanding I would agree with what LuAnne and Suzy have put forth regarding the wine.

Heartstrings, I fully understand your desire to speak that which you know is truth. It would be best if we all were like that. All too often Christians will engage in discussions, debates or arguments on a point they are not well informed on (such as the wine issue) and end up doing more damage than good by making statements that aren't true, don't make sense, are full of holes, etc. Sometimes it's best to either simply remain silent or admit you don't know for certain but will do some study on the issue.

The Bible is clear that drinking wine, and other drinks, that can make one drunk is foolish, unwise and wrong. That in itself is a very strong indication that Jesus would not provide such a drink. After all, could Jesus (being God) perform a miracle that would provide a sinful drink so people could drink their fill and get drunk?

LuAnne, I was actually thinking about that today, with regards to when Havner passed away and how it's so sad that what he was preaching over a quarter century ago regarding things like this applies even more today than then. I really can't fathom how some Christians actually believe the world is getting better and better and will become perfect by their efforts and then Jesus will return.

[Guest]

I have to admit I drink mixed wine...

Cranberry-Pomegranate but only 100% juice...less than 100% and it tastes like syrup.
It contains a lot of grape juice too. I think the pom is the 5th ingredient, supposed to
be good for you.