Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

heartstrings

CCM?

Recommended Posts



Ms Annie:

I guess I mean it can be subjective.

So what do you think?

One of the things Annie is trying to get at is specific music styles. Is heavy metal and gangsta rap style music, for instance, appropriate for Christians to listen to? What message does the world take away if they hear a Christian listening to these styles of music?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



Ms Annie:

I guess I mean it can be subjective.

So what do you think?

I think that's quite a leap, farouk. And I think it would be helpful if you'd define terms like religious and subjective...and show the connection between your posts. Edited by Annie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still very confused by this whole topic. I do not see why the style of music matters all that much. I do agree some music is appropriate for some settings and not others. For example, since church is primarily a time of congregational worship of God, songs should be corporate in nature and should be written for a congregation to sing. However, there is MUCH latitude in that. Hymns are appropriate, modern praise songs are appropriate. One church may sing accapella, others use a piano only, others an organ, and others a band with guitar, bass, drums, saxaphone, etc. (as mine does). I've attended all types of churches in the past. I attended one where bluegrass and gospel were used primarily, I attended a primarily African American church where the music was phenomenal and they were very uninhibited in letting the Holy Spirit lead them in worship. I've attended a very traditional church where nothing but hymns were sun. My current church I play bass on the worship team. They are all good, in their own way.

Worship is about a human response to what God has done for use, as led by the Holy Spirit. Worship is where humanity meets God. Our cultures will bring a lot to how we express ourselves to God in praise. For example, my friends went to a church in Etheopia last week as they were there to adopt a child, and they reported that worship was phenomenal and unlike anything they experienced. They had many African drums and beats going around their music as they lifed their voices to God. The church I grew up in was very tradtional, and people lifted their hearts to God through hymns, and it was beautiful an dmeaningful as well. The black church I vistied was meaningful as well, as they broght their Southern black culture and expressed themselves in worship through gospel music, clapping and dancing.

Worship and praise music sung in church will be diferent and look different whereever you go, yet they have something in common. The common theme is that in church, the congregation sings together, lifting their voices in praise and worship to our Almighty Creator, they are responding to the grace and mercy received by them as poured out through Jesus Christ, and they are responding to the Holy Spirit being alive in them. Music flows from culture. Music styles can be used for good or bad, just as everything else God created. Worship comes from the heart, and culture largely impacts how one will outwardly respond to God in praise. Some lift their hands and dance. Others are more solomn. Others clap their hands. It is all good! God enjoys seeing his creation create music and lift their hands and voices in praise to him.

So why this entire discussion? I am just really confused why the criticism of how others express themselves in worship. Each church will hAV a different culture, people of different backgrounds, and will express themselves differently. It is all good. What is important is that we respond to God and join in praise and adoration of him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still very confused by this whole topic. I do not see why the style of music matters all that much.

It matters because of the God we worship. Our worship of Him should be worthy of Him. The styles of worship we use should be in keeping with His character, not opposed to it. You are correct that worship is a human response to God's greatness. Does that fact mean that there are no guidelines for worship...that anything goes...that any kind of human expression is acceptable to express the kind of worship which takes into account God's true character? Or are there expressions which, by their very nature, are not acceptable in worship because they debase the object of worship? That's all we are talking about. To use perfectly ridiculous examples, can we "howl our praise to God," or "meow to show how much we love Him"? Does singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the "Oscar Meyer Weiner Jingle" qualify as appropriate worship? Can we polka dance to express our worship to God? What about the song I mentioned above? (Nothing wrong with the content, right?)

God is here,
And God is there,
God, you know, is ev'rywhere.
He's up your nose,
Between your toes,
He dwells within your garden hose.

Ridiculous! you say. But why is it ridiculous? Are there guidelines? Does Scripture have anything to say about worship? What is the pattern there? Are there certain styles of music which debase the content?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did David play classical music or bluegrass when he wrote Psalms? Once we figure that out, we will know exactly the only kind of music that is not sinful for Christians...

Why do you say this, anime? (I mean, I know you are being sarcastic, but...) Is this the only principle we have to go by? Or (as you and I have agreed) are there styles and songs which qualify as "corrupt communication"? If so, how can we discern which those are? You ask for principles, and when I throw one out, you resort to sarcasm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it needs to be said that in the first place true worship goes beyond the outward trappings of music. It's good to remember that worship, as the Lord Jesus said in John 4, need to be 'in spirit and in truth'.

I must admit that some music is rather 'noisy'. How I might define 'noisy' further might require lawyer skills, though. But ordinary people would be able to tell whether something is too noisy or not, even if by some complicated definition some noisy music could be 'proved' to be otherwise.

If this makes any sense? What do folks think?

(I'm also wondering, with Kindofblue1977, where this discussion is heading?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, to answer your earlier question.



Right...so, we're applying this same idea to music. You have the basic elements of music--pitches, chords, rhythms, tambre/instruments, etc.--which are combined in various ways to form clearly identified styles of music. We have agreed that certain styles can be called "corrupt communication." The question now is this: how do we discern what styles (or even individual songs) are corrupt communication? Are there any objective guiding principles to help determine this?


I searched Google Images for "grunge". Here is one of the first pictures I found:



The first two are clearly immodest, but the third one isn't necessarily, even though all three are considered "grunge" style. This goes further than the simple elements that compose grunge or other styles. Looking at those pictures, grunge can't be called sinful, but the immodest apparel of the first two girls can be, whether it's grunge or not. The style is usually not enough to determine whether it's sinful or not.

The same thing applies to music. There was a time when hymns were considered sinful by many, especially since many of them were sung to bar tunes (which can be likened to today's Christianized parodies of secular songs). There was a time when many considered ties to be sinful, because they "pointed towards hell".

A lot of the Bible contains history, and I believe it is important for Christians to study history, or otherwise they repeat the same weird mistakes some Christians did in the past and make Christianity look funny, to put it nicely. I don't mean we have to please the world, but there was a time in history when the world could not find faults such as ignorance or naivety in Christians even though they still despised them. It is not the case today. Personally, I think this fight over which music genre or dressing fashion is sinful and which isn't -- something the Bible never gets stuck on -- is one of those things that makes us look extremely silly to non-Christians, and for good reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, to answer your earlier question.



I searched Google Images for "grunge". Here is one of the first pictures I found:



The first two are clearly immodest, but the third one isn't necessarily, even though all three are considered "grunge" style. This goes further than the simple elements that compose grunge or other styles. Looking at those pictures, grunge can't be called sinful, but the immodest apparel of the first two girls can be, whether it's grunge or not. The style is usually not enough to determine whether it's sinful or not.

The same thing applies to music. There was a time when hymns were considered sinful by many, especially since many of them were sung to bar tunes (which can be likened to today's Christianized parodies of secular songs). There was a time when many considered ties to be sinful, because they "pointed towards hell".

A lot of the Bible contains history, and I believe it is important for Christians to study history, or otherwise they repeat the same weird mistakes some Christians did in the past and make Christianity look funny, to put it nicely. I don't mean we have to please the world, but there was a time in history when the world could not find faults such as ignorance or naivety in Christians even though they still despised them. It is not the case today. Personally, I think this fight over which music genre or dressing fashion is sinful and which isn't -- something the Bible never gets stuck on -- is one of those things that makes us look extremely silly to non-Christians, and for good reason.

I get what you are saying but again we come to the question of what determines appropriate or not. As asked previously, what about heavy metal or gangsta style rap, for example?

It's true that church history shows that what most of us listen to in church today would have been totally unacceptable by previous generations of Christians. At one time, only singing Psalms was considered approrpriate for church. The more conservative churches stood against hymns and fought them for years. Pianos were once considered inappropriate for church because of their association with sin. Even as late as the time of Moody there condemnation from the more conservative churches over his use of an organ and modern songs.

Question, were they all wrong back then? Were they right and we are wrong? Does taste, preference and tradition have more impact than we might consider? Can some worship God and find edification using some music that others wouldn't?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess these are all interesting avenues. I wonder if the graphics bit was a bit off topic, but, hey, I'm not a mod.

I think it all proves that it's hard to put definite definitions between some styles of music: sometimes it's obvious, but other times it's less obvious; or should I say, some tunes might belong to more than one category.

For me, I appreciate very substantially the old hymns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



The music to which hymns were sung was worldly music too when hymns were first written. The reformers and the major figures in church history that you guys generally praise were the culturally "liberal" rascals you criticize today (note, I do not mean theologically liberal at all, they were theologically very conservative.. Christianity is not a culture, but a faith which is relevant in the context of any culture, and it doesn't condemn any style, but it condemns sin that is intermingled with culture).


Prove it. You cannot prove that. You are way to much in love with the world and what it offers you, while your resisting being a peculiar person. Come on, let God truly transform you. He will, yet only if you let Him.

PS. Its easier to just go along with the world.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I see the underlying idea of some posts, it seems to be that cultural expressions are supposedly absolutes. And that logically, worldwide Christians, English-speakers or not, should supposedly conform to the sort of cultural customs that were particularly in vogue 70 to 80 years ago in North America. No one has come straight out and said this, but I wonder if this is the direction in which some of the posts are heading.

Anyway, I like a lot of the old hymns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, there is truth to the statement that some of our hymns have tunes from popular songs of the day. But one thing we need to remember when we assert that: the popular songs of the day when the hymns were written weren't written with the rock beat...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happy Christian:

I think this is what General Booth meant when he said, Why should the devil have all the best tunes?

I wouldn't go too far along that road, mind: but he did have a point, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do they, are is it the popular songs of yesterday year, and even some of today's worldly songs, were copied off the songs sang in the churches?

I know of several popular singers that actually started singing in church, them graduated to singing the devils worldly music and leaving God and Jesus behind them, and many of the worldly songs were copied off of Christian songs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the ultimate point is, emphasize the doctrinal content. This is really important.

(Rather than some sort of exercise in 'cultural imperialism' unrelated to Biblical doctrine.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While some CCM artists do write songs with good words, much of the songs are full of vain repetitions, they pander to emotions instead of spiritual enrichment, some I have heard are even blasphemous. I find that I am angered every time I turn to my local "Christian" music station. Sometimes while flipping stations I can't even tell that I'm on the "Christian" station until I look at the number. The music I hear on that station sounds like modern pop, rap and rock music. All they do is mention "God" or "Jesus" now and then so that they can say it's a "Christian" song.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know the name of the program, but early Sunday morning a local Christian radio station plays it. The program typically plays some choir or orchestral music, has a few prayers, some Bible lessons and such and they call themselves a traditional Christian program. They have been having problems raising money which is why I think they are now having certain CCM songs played to orchestra music or with a choir rather than the traditional hymns they used to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know the name of the program, but early Sunday morning a local Christian radio station plays it. The program typically plays some choir or orchestral music, has a few prayers, some Bible lessons and such and they call themselves a traditional Christian program. They have been having problems raising money which is why I think they are now having certain CCM songs played to orchestra music or with a choir rather than the traditional hymns they used to play.


We're blessed to have an IFB radio station in our area! There are several IFB radio stations that stream live over the internet too that I listen to as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



We're blessed to have an IFB radio station in our area! There are several IFB radio stations that stream live over the internet too that I listen to as well.

When I'm near my computer I listen to the stations on the internet also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I'm near my computer I listen to the stations on the internet also.


I listen to North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, California - Landmark Baptist Church in Haines City, Florida - Faith Baptist Church in Fort Pierce, Florida. How about yours?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can only pick up 3 different radio stations that are of religious nature. One is a Jimmy Swagger station, the other two plays some CCM. So we do not really have access to a good one. 2 of them plays some music that is OK, but most of the time when I turn them on I have to turn them right back off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope no one minds if I revive this thread, but I thought I might share a couple of entries I wrote in my diary on this subject earlier this year. Or rather, excerpts from two different entries. In the past, I have been a very big fan of both secular and Christian rock, but the Lord has been doing a work in my heart about it, and these entries reflect that.

First excerpt:

"Rock music (including so-called Christian rock) is something I am looking at spiritually rather than carnally nowadays. From a purely carnal standpoint, it’s awesome. But from a spiritual and Biblical perspective, it’s bad news. It is full of the ungodliness and worldly lusts that Titus 2:12 says we are to deny. It is characterised by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, which 1 John 2:16 tells us “is not of the Father, but is of the world”. The works of the flesh described in Galatians 5:19-21 are all manifested, and indeed celebrated, in rock music. It is greatly loved by much of mankind, but Jesus said in Luke 16:15, “that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God”. Music should glorify God, spiritually edify man and have an emphasis on melody (Ephesians 5:19 talks of “singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord”). But rock glorifies man (and as often as not, Satan), feeds man’s carnal appetites and has an emphasis on rhythm. “Christian” rock is really no better, for all that some of the songs have “godly” lyrics. It puts no difference between the holy and the profane, between the unclean and the clean (cf. Ezekiel 22:26). It is drinking the cup of the Lord (with Christian lyrics) and the cup of devils (sensual rhythms, evil fruit like sexual immorality and drug abuse in the lives of many Christian rock stars), which 1 Corinthians 10:21 says we cannot do. I don’t know whether Little Richard is aware of this verse, but he once said, “You cannot drink out of the Lord’s cup and the devil’s cup at the same time”. He has also said, “I believe this kind of music is demonic”. From the horse’s mouth …"

Second excerpt:

"On the Dial-the-Truth Ministries Web site, I read an excellent article about true Christian music. The author of this article made eight key points about Christian music: it should praise the Lord Jesus Christ and not man, it is for the Lord and not for the world, it is a new song and not an old song, its message must be clear and not vague or misleading, it should emphasise the message and not the music or musician, it is in the local church and not the concert halls or night clubs, it should feed the spirit and not the flesh and finally, Christian musicians should be dedicated to the Lord and not be worldly.

The author also showed that Contemporary Christian Music is not truly Christian in a Biblical sense. He pointed out that the Christian life is a spiritual life, because the Christian has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. A Christian's music should therefore be spiritual and not carnal. But rock music and CCM are both carnal. That is because they are dominated by rhythm and not melody. The flesh loves the rhythm.

I completely agree with this article. The Lord is currently teaching me the differences between the spiritual and the carnal. Even though I have loved rock and pop music, as well as CCM, for almost my whole life, I think that I'm going to have to give them up and only listen to sacred and classical music ..."

Those two entries were written back in June and July. Since that time, I pretty much have only been listening to classical or sacred music. (By "sacred music", I mean hymns and other godly, spiritual music that glorify God, emphasise melody rather than rhythm, that are doctrinally sound and which edify the spirit rather than gratifying the flesh.) This change from my previous tastes is all down to the changes God has been making in my heart since I was born again last September. He has shown me that however "good" rock music might make me feel (because of how it gratifies the flesh), it is spiritually harmful, and this applies to Christian rock (CCM etc.) as well, because of the way it mixes the holy and the profane. Whenever you do that, it just ruins the holy thing. It's a bit like throwing mud at a clean garment. The garment doesn't make the mud clean; the mud soils the garment. Or if you drop a bit of dirt into a glass of clean water, that water will become discoloured and no longer drinkable. The water doesn't make the dirt clean; the dirt pollutes the water. In like fashion, if you take godly lyrics and add an unholy rock beat to them, then regardless of how good those lyrics might be, you've now got an end product that is no longer holy. A holy God should be worshipped in a holy way - in spirit and in truth. I believe you cannot worship God in spirit while indulging the lusts of the flesh at the same time. Yet this is what people try to do with CCM, and what I myself tried to do before I was saved. (Although only recently born again, I have been brought up in a Christian home and have always had a faith of sorts.)

Anyway, I hope this might be of interest and edification to folks. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 31 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...