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Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That in itself explains it. Rock music is worldly music. We are not to conform, but be transformed. And if we listen to worldly music, we have not been transformed.

A quote.

Just as good literature has the power to uplift, ennoble and transform character, so also does bad literature have the power to corrupt, drag down and destroy character.

The assassin of Lord Russell said that reading made him a criminal and a murder. John Angell James, one of England’s noblest Christians, said, when an old man, that he has never fully recovered from the ills effects of fifteen minutes reading of a bad pamphlet when he was a boy.

Same is true for music.

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No - the song I mentioned is one the rock group Queen did years ago.


Oh, the 4 string base guitar will give the back beat, and with many songs that's were it comes from.



I've been told that while Mr. Hucakbee was a pastor down at Texarkana that he preached against such music, yet on that Fox show he has he plays the base guitar.

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Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That in itself explains it. Rock music is worldly music. We are not to conform, but be transformed. And if we listen to worldly music, we have not been transformed.

A quote.

Just as good literature has the power to uplift, ennoble and transform character, so also does bad literature have the power to corrupt, drag down and destroy character.

The assassin of Lord Russell said that reading made him a criminal and a murder. John Angell James, one of England’s noblest Christians, said, when an old man, that he has never fully recovered from the ills effects of fifteen minutes reading of a bad pamphlet when he was a boy.

Same is true for music.


The music to which hymns were sung was worldly music too when hymns were first written. The reformers and the major figures in church history that you guys generally praise were the culturally "liberal" rascals you criticize today (note, I do not mean theologically liberal at all, they were theologically very conservative.. Christianity is not a culture, but a faith which is relevant in the context of any culture, and it doesn't condemn any style, but it condemns sin that is intermingled with culture). Edited by anime4christ

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Christianity is not a culture, but a faith which is relevant in the context of any culture, and it doesn't condemn any style, but it condemns sin that is intermingled with culture.

Are all artistic styles, then, in your opinion, morally neutral and equally beautiful/worthy of praise? Or, maybe I should ask you what you mean by "style." Definitions, again... :)

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Graphic t-shirts aren't sinful, but graphic t-shirts with blasphemy on them are. That's what I mean by style: A look, a sound, a feel, apart from sin which can or can not be present there.

Hmmm...Still unclear to me. Your definition of style includes your opinions/arguments about it and is therefore not helpful to the discussion. Let me ask you this, as an attempt at more clarity. Would you say that there are certain styles of dressing that qualify as "corrupt communication"? I'm not talking about articles of clothing, such as "graphic t-shirts," but styles, such as "hippie" or "grunge" or "skater" or "retro" or "traditional" or "boutique" or "western" or "urban" or "street/hooker" or "Elizabethan" or "preppy." Would you say that there are certain styles of speaking that qualify as "corrupt communication"? I'm not talking about different languages, but different styles of speaking within a language, such as "ghetto talk," "gangsta talk," "bedroom talk," etc. I'm not talking about the content of the speech either, as in the words that are said...just the tone of voice and the body language that naturally accompanies it. What if a woman were to sashay up to my husband and purr in a breathy/whispery/sultry voice with eyebrows arched, eyelids half closed, and lips pursed, "How's your day goin'?" Does that "style" have the same effect as the same woman asking the same question in a cheerful, conversational style? What does style #1 communicate (corruption or edification)? What does style #2 communicate (corruption or edification)? Different styles do indeed communicate different attitudes. And attitudes, as human expressions/responses, can be divided into "edifying" or "corrupting." Edited by Annie

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If the "style" is sinful, such as a skimpy outfit that will cause lust in others, then yes it is sinful. I don't mean that as style though. There are many styles into which skimpiness can be incorporated, while the same styles (fabric used, color, frills, etc.) could be made more modest and less revealing. I mean style as in the " cultural twist" added to the content. Like a preacher can preach with a British accent and wearing a tie and suit or he could be preaching with a southern accent and be wearing a stetson and jeans, but be saying the same truth. On the other hand once can swear with a British accent and one can swear with a southern accent, yet either way he may sin. Do you get what I'm getting at yet? Style can incorporate sin, but to some extent a lot of style can be discerned from sin and the same sin can be done in any style.

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If the "style" is sinful, such as a skimpy outfit that will cause lust in others, then yes it is sinful. I don't mean that as style though. There are many styles into which skimpiness can be incorporated, while the same styles (fabric used, color, frills, etc.) could be made more modest and less revealing. I mean style as in the " cultural twist" added to the content. Like a preacher can preach with a British accent and wearing a tie and suit or he could be preaching with a southern accent and be wearing a stetson and jeans, but be saying the same truth. On the other hand once can swear with a British accent and one can swear with a southern accent, yet either way he may sin. Do you get what I'm getting at yet? Style can incorporate sin, but to some extent a lot of style can be discerned from sin and the same sin can be done in any style.

I don't think your definition of style is compatible with what people generally mean when they are talking about "styles." I googled "clothing styles," "modern clothing styles," etc., and what popped up were the kinds of things I posted: "street style," "punk style," etc. A "style" is not a color, frills, fabric etc. Those things are simply the elements which are combined in different ways to produce a style: a "look," a "statement," a "communication" of a person's tastes, identifications, etc. You have acknowledged that those elements can be combined in ways that communicate sinful ideas...so I think we actually agree that (contrary to your previous statement below), certain styles can indeed be condemned by Christians as being "corrupt communication."

Christianity ...doesn't condemn any style.

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OK, with that definition of style, yeah. Whatever you want to call it, I think you get what I meant by style, even if my definition of the word was not as accurate.

Right...so, we're applying this same idea to music. You have the basic elements of music--pitches, chords, rhythms, tambre/instruments, etc.--which are combined in various ways to form clearly identified styles of music. We have agreed that certain styles can be called "corrupt communication." The question now is this: how do we discern what styles (or even individual songs) are corrupt communication? Are there any objective guiding principles to help determine this? Edited by Annie

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Right...so, we're applying this same idea to music. You have the basic elements of music--pitches, chords, rhythms, tambre/instruments, etc.--which are combined in various ways to form clearly identified styles of music. We have agreed that certain styles can be called "corrupt communication." The question now is this: how do we discern what styles (or even individual songs) are corrupt communication? Are there any objective guiding principles to help determine this?


Hi Ms Annie.

I guess that in the end we are back to Romans 14, where some things have to be left to individual judgment, where lines are not clear cut from Scripture (some aspects of music, dress codes, etc.) Otherwise ppl are asking not for the application of the Bible to the individual conscience, but rather a pope to tell us what to do.

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Hi Ms Annie.

I guess that in the end we are back to Romans 14, where some things have to be left to individual judgment, where lines are not clear cut from Scripture (some aspects of music, dress codes, etc.) Otherwise ppl are asking not for the application of the Bible to the individual conscience, but rather a pope to tell us what to do.

Right. This is a matter of discernment for sure. What general principles would you apply as you discern good from evil in this area?

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Right. This is a matter of discernment for sure. What general principles would you apply as you discern good from evil in this area?


Ms Annie:

I guess, if it's not immoral or doctrinally wrong, then there may be some personal leeway.

Fact is, we don't need a pope to tell us what we can do, where Scripture is either silent or gives more general guidelines.

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Ms Annie:

I guess, if it's not immoral or doctrinally wrong, then there may be some personal leeway.

Fact is, we don't need a pope to tell us what we can do, where Scripture is either silent or gives more general guidelines.

I guess my question is "how do you (not as a pope, or anyone in authority, and just making decisions for yourself, not anyone else) discern good from evil as regards this issue?" Maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm asking. This is just a friendly discussion about discerning good from evil; it doesn't have anything to do with a pope.

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I guess my question is "how do you (not as a pope, or anyone in authority, and just making decisions for yourself, not anyone else) discern good from evil as regards this issue?" Maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm asking. This is just a friendly discussion about discerning good from evil; it doesn't have anything to do with a pope.


Ms Annie:

Well, like I said, as long as it's not immoral or doctrinally erroneous, for a start.

But afterwards, I guess Romans 14 comes into play.

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You like Romans 14, eh? :wink Ok, I'll bite (for a bit, anyways). Romans 14 tells us that we are not to wrongly judge others in areas that are Christian liberty (in foods or or observation of holy days, as in Col. 2:16. Interestingly, Col. 2 seems to be talking about the tendency to replace the true gospel with a works salvation. Col. 3 goes right on to tell us to separate ourselves from the actions & attitudes of the world). However, Rom. 14 goes on to tell us that if anything we practice because of that Christian liberty causes offense to - makes to stumble - a fellow Christian, we should voluntarily limit our liberty in this area.

I've been arguing the rock music issue for a loooong time, and no matter how many times I look at this chapter, the onus always seems to end up on those that believe rock is allright for the Christian. I've never known anyone to claim that old-fashioned music or hymns cause them to stumble spiritually, but I've heard of many that say that rock music is a spiritual stumbling-block or temptation to them. Based on the admonition of Romans 14, then, which of us - the pro-rockers or against-rockers - are Biblically responsible to limit our liberty in this area?


Oh, and anime, I guess I was rather unclear earlier in the posting. I never meant to say that rock music was still rock even if you couldn't hear the beat! That would be thoroughly illogical. I guess 'quieter' might have been a better word than 'muted.' Mea culpa!

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Ms Annie:

Well, like I said, as long as it's not immoral or doctrinally erroneous, for a start.

But afterwards, I guess Romans 14 comes into play.

That's what I am asking: how do you determine whether or not a style of music is immoral? (We all agree that if something is immoral, it should be avoided.) That's what the discussion is about: how to identify styles of music which are immoral.

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You like Romans 14, eh? :wink Ok, I'll bite (for a bit, anyways). Romans 14 tells us that we are not to wrongly judge others in areas that are Christian liberty (in foods or or observation of holy days, as in Col. 2:16. Interestingly, Col. 2 seems to be talking about the tendency to replace the true gospel with a works salvation. Col. 3 goes right on to tell us to separate ourselves from the actions & attitudes of the world). However, Rom. 14 goes on to tell us that if anything we practice because of that Christian liberty causes offense to - makes to stumble - a fellow Christian, we should voluntarily limit our liberty in this area.

I've been arguing the rock music issue for a loooong time, and no matter how many times I look at this chapter, the onus always seems to end up on those that believe rock is allright for the Christian. I've never known anyone to claim that old-fashioned music or hymns cause them to stumble spiritually, but I've heard of many that say that rock music is a spiritual stumbling-block or temptation to them. Based on the admonition of Romans 14, then, which of us - the pro-rockers or against-rockers - are Biblically responsible to limit our liberty in this area?


Oh, and anime, I guess I was rather unclear earlier in the posting. I never meant to say that rock music was still rock even if you couldn't hear the beat! That would be thoroughly illogical. I guess 'quieter' might have been a better word than 'muted.' Mea culpa!

Good points.

If certain music could cause one to stumble, and we really wouldn't know what that music might be unless we knew them well enough to know, then once we do know music X is a problem for them, we should not listen to such when they are around.

However, if music X may cause some a problem but it doesn't cause you problems, wouldn't it be okay for you to listen to music X when it would only be you hearing it?

Many people can see that some music is appropriate for church while other music isn't. Many can see that some music is appropriate for mixed company and some isn't. Of course, even then, not all will agree, even if we are only discussing hymns.

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That's what I am asking: how do you determine whether or not a style of music is immoral? (We all agree that if something is immoral, it should be avoided.) That's what the discussion is about: how to identify styles of music which are immoral.


Ms Annie:

Well, I suppose obviously if the lyrics suggest something immoral.

Here's an interesting quote from General Booth, founder of the Salvation Army: 'Why should the devil have all the best tunes?'

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Ms Annie:

Well, I suppose obviously if the lyrics suggest something immoral.

Here's an interesting quote from General Booth, founder of the Salvation Army: 'Why should the devil have all the best tunes?'

I am familiar with that quote; interesting that you should bring it up. Care to expand on what it means, and how it fits into this discussion?

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I am familiar with that quote; interesting that you should bring it up. Care to expand on what it means, and how it fits into this discussion?


Ms Annie:

I guess it means that there really is no such thing as 'religious' music. (Some lyrics are bad, of course, and should certainly be avoided.)

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Ms Annie:

I guess it means that there really is no such thing as 'religious' music. (Some lyrics are bad, of course, and should certainly be avoided.)

What do you mean by religious music?

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