Jacob's trouble

[Covenanter]

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jacob's trouble is often taught as a feature of the yet future tribulation, when Israel will suffer for the purpose of salvation.

Rick:
God was done dealing with the Jews as a nation by the end of Acts. When He's done dealing with the Gentiles, is when the times of the Gentiles will be complete and He'll begin dealing with the Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble. That is when all those things that follow Revelation 15:1 begin to come to pass; the things that there are no biblical or historical evidence that they ever happened in all of history let alone 70 A.D.

Is the trouble in the time of Esther the proper fulfilment of that prophecy?

Est 3:13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, [even] upon the thirteenth [day] of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and [to take] the spoil of them for a prey.

Est 9:21 To stablish [this] among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly,
22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.

Ezra & Nehemiah are among those who benefited from the resultant good will to the Jews.

[Covenanter]

The Jews knew all about trouble - the state of the people, then the nation, was a cycle of obedience, turning away, trouble from conquering enemies, repentance & deliverance. Should we take that reference in Jeremiah as some extraordinary & unique? Does the context demand it?

We need look no further than the Babylonian destruction & captivity, & the subsequent restoration as prophesied. A feature of that captivity was the attempted destruction of the Jews who remained in the region by Haman, and their complete deliverance.

[Invicta]

The Jews had trouble in AD 66-70, they have had trouble ever since. One Jewish believer told me that very few Jews over the centuries had been born in the same countyry as their grandfather, due to persecution.

The times of the Gentiles expired when the Jews returned to their own land. Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:...... and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, ......until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[John81]

The Jews had trouble in AD 66-70, they have had trouble ever since. One Jewish believer told me that very few Jews over the centuries had been born in the same countyry as their grandfather, due to persecution.

The times of the Gentiles expired when the Jews returned to their own land. Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:...... and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, ......until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

More Jews live in American than in Israel. How can it be said the Jews have returned to their own land? Israel only consists of a very, very tiny portion of the Promised Land God describes in Scripture.

[Wilchbla]

More Jews live in American than in Israel. How can it be said the Jews have returned to their own land? Israel only consists of a very, very tiny portion of the Promised Land God describes in Scripture.

Not only this but all the prophesies state that the Lord would personally lead the children of Israel back into the land. This did not happen in 1918 or 1948 or even now. Once he does after his return the bible clearly states they would never be driven out of the land again. We also know that they will be driven out of the land by the Antichrist during the tribulation so technically passages like Matthew 24:34 have nothing to do with the Jews in the land now but applies to the Jews during the tribulation.

[Covenanter]

The Jews had trouble in AD 66-70, they have had trouble ever since. One Jewish believer told me that very few Jews over the centuries had been born in the same countyry as their grandfather, due to persecution.

Why do you separate "Jacob's trouble" from the events in Babylon & district soon after teh prophecy, that are recorded in Scripture?

[Seth Doty]

Why do you separate "Jacob's trouble" from the events in Babylon & district soon after teh prophecy, that are recorded in Scripture?

Look at "Jacobs trouble" in scripture and see if it fits the return from the Babylonian captivity or not.

"Jeremiah 30:4-24 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it."


Israel didn't have any sort of King when they returned from the Babylonian captivity, let alone " David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." Compare that passage about the restoration of "king David" to this one:

"Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."

Also at the end of this prophetic passage to Israel it says "in the latter days ye shall consider it." The "latter days" are pretty much are synonymous with the "last days" in the NT and certainly can never refer to any period prior to the time of Christ at the very earliest, or the millennial kingdom at the latest...

[Covenanter]

Seth-Doty, Please consider the events of Esther as the day of Jacob's trouble.

[Seth Doty]

Seth-Doty, Please consider the events of Esther as the day of Jacob's trouble.

Why? I think that passage itself shows pretty well that "Jacobs trouble" is not speaking of the "events of Esther". First the passage mentions that God is going to raise up "David their king" to them, whether this is speaking of the literal king David or a King like unto David(Christ for example) is irrelevant since after the Babylonian captivity they had no king at all. Secondly, even when they did return from that captivity, the city of Jerusalem was a mess, and they remained a weak nation under the control of the persian empire. Hardly a fulfillment of the prophecy in the passage.

The parallel passage that speaks of the restoration of "King David" makes it equally clear that it isn't talking about the babylonian captivity since it describes a time when Israel is without kings, idols, or sacrifice and specifically places it in the "latter days".

"Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."

[Invicta]

Why? I think that passage itself shows pretty well that "Jacobs trouble" is not speaking of the "events of Esther". First the passage mentions that God is going to raise up "David their king" to them, whether this is speaking of the literal king David or a King like unto David(Christ for example) is irrelevant since after the Babylonian captivity they had no king at all. Secondly, even when they did return from that captivity, the city of Jerusalem was a mess, and they remained a weak nation under the control of the persian empire. Hardly a fulfillment of the prophecy in the passage.

The parallel passage that speaks of the restoration of "King David" makes it equally clear that it isn't talking about the babylonian captivity since it describes a time when Israel is without kings, idols, or sacrifice and specifically places it in the "latter days".

"Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."

What are the latter days? The latter days were in operation in the book of Acts. I would suggest that the latter days were the days of the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan. 9 which ran out with the stoning of Stphen and the conversion of the Ethiopian, Acts. The former days were the timed before the exile. Zec 8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.

[John81]

What are the latter days? The latter days were in operation in the book of Acts. I would suggest that the latter days were the days of the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan. 9 which ran out with the stoning of Stphen and the conversion of the Ethiopian, Acts. The former days were the timed before the exile. Zec 8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.

So you believe "latter days" is in reference the latter days of Israel/the Jews?

[Seth Doty]

What are the latter days? The latter days were in operation in the book of Acts. I would suggest that the latter days were the days of the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan. 9 which ran out with the stoning of Stphen and the conversion of the Ethiopian, Acts. The former days were the timed before the exile. Zec 8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.

I think the "latter days", "last times", "last days", are somewhat vague when it comes to pinning down an exact time, but I do not think they could be considered to begin prior to the time of Christs death, nor can they be considered over and done with at this point as there are NT promises that refer to them as still future. I do think your correct to equate the signs of the last days to the 70 weeks of Daniel as they are speaking of the Jewish people as the seventy weeks are. They were in effect in the book of acts but I think they went on "hold" with the destruction of temple and will likely resume with the rebuilding of the temple when ever that happens.

After all, when the seventy weeks are ended all prophecy is fulfilled concerning the Jewish people and Christ is the King of Israel.

"Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."



"Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Christ was cut off at 62 weeks but the clock was still ticking, it kept ticking till the destruction of the temple. At that point God apparently pauses the clock with the vague statement "unto the end of the war desolations are determined." How long this "war" and these "desolations" will continue is left completely open. After this indefinite period the clock is resumed with: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Edited April 17, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Covenanter]

Why? I think that passage itself shows pretty well that "Jacobs trouble" is not speaking of the "events of Esther".

In Jer. 29, Jeremiah prophesies blessings for the exiles. Jer. 30 prophesies 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. That certainly is consistent with the record of Esther.

Esther 3:13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.

As we know, the deliverance from Haman's scheme was complete.


First the passage mentions that God is going to raise up "David their king" to them, whether this is speaking of the literal king David or a King like unto David(Christ for example) is irrelevant since after the Babylonian captivity they had no king at all. Secondly, even when they did return from that captivity, the city of Jerusalem was a mess, and they remained a weak nation under the control of the persian empire. Hardly a fulfillment of the prophecy in the passage.

You are not looking at the specific prophecy of Jacob's trouble.

Certainly the prophecy runs on - into the new covenant. Thoughout the prophets there are prophecies of perfect restoration of Israel under "David." These clearly refer to Christ. The human kings were a period when David was established as a type of Christ. The LORD never ceased to be King. At his conception Jesus was promised the throne of David, & at his resurrection he assumed the throne. (Acts 2)

The parallel passage that speaks of the restoration of "King David" makes it equally clear that it isn't talking about the babylonian captivity since it describes a time when Israel is without kings, idols, or sacrifice and specifically places it in the "latter days".

"Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."

Hosea is prophesying the exile, during which there was neither temple nor human king.

Prophecy was moving forwards towards the coming of the Messiah & the new covenant.

[Wilchbla]

Seth-Doty, Please consider the events of Esther as the day of Jacob's trouble.

Wow, just wow.

Jer. 30:6- Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? (Verse prior to "Jacob's Trouble" verse).

Rev.12:2- And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Matthew 24:8- All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Isaiah 13:6-11

[6] Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
[7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
[8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
[9] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
[10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
[11] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.




Isaiah 66:7,8-

{7} Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[8] Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

John 16:20,21-

[20] Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
[21] A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

The key to understanding what "Jacob's trouble" is is by comparing scripture with scripture not by private interpretation.

Jacob's trouble is clearly referring to a time prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

[Invicta]

I think the "latter days", "last times", "last days", are somewhat vague when it comes to pinning down an exact time, but I do not think they could be considered to begin prior to the time of Christs death, nor can they be considered over and done with at this point as there are NT promises that refer to them as still future. I do think your correct to equate the signs of the last days to the 70 weeks of Daniel as they are speaking of the Jewish people as the seventy weeks are. They were in effect in the book of acts but I think they went on "hold" with the destruction of temple and will likely resume with the rebuilding of the temple when ever that happens.

After all, when the seventy weeks are ended all prophecy is fulfilled concerning the Jewish people and Christ is the King of Israel.

"Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."





"Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Christ was cut off at 62 weeks but the clock was still ticking, it kept ticking till the destruction of the temple. At that point God apparently pauses the clock with the vague statement "unto the end of the war desolations are determined." How long this "war" and these "desolations" will continue is left completely open. After this indefinite period the clock is resumed with: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

If you really read Daniel 9 without any pre conceived ideas, you would not have posted that.


The clock did not stop ticking 62+7 = 69. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks. Q. What comes after 69? A. 70. Christ was cut off in the 70th week, "In the midst of the week."