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PastorMatt

ABC's 20/20 Special on Independent, Fundamental Baptists

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Yet another example of “special pleading” was seen in a few short excerpts from sermons
presumed (but not documented) to be quotations from pastors of IFB churches. There appeared to be
three different pastors whose words were heard, without the contexts of those words being presented.
While some of those statements seemed improper, they were not substantiated by Scripture, and were
evidently the subjective opinions of those individual pastors. While multitudes of sermons by IFB
preachers which are designed to build families, instruct parents in child-rearing, and help young people
to avoid sexual disasters could have been cited to give a fairer representation of the IFB churches, ABC
chose to omit that significant information.


...some of those statements seemed improper,


My kids heard the phrase "oral sex" for the first time, from an IFB pulpit.
Our pastor told us that blacks were meant to be slaves told jokes about blacks from the pulpit.
A visiting pastor also poked fun at blacks from the pulpit.
Another pastor, who didn't want his wife to get pregnant, divulged to us, from the pulpit, the gory details of his wife's miscarriage
There's more but I think that's enough.

they were not substantiated by Scripture, and were
evidently the subjective opinions of those individual pastors

I hear stuff like this all the time. How can one call themselves "preaching the word of God" when what one is saying is opinion and not substantiated or backed up with scripture?

Ecclesiastes 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: [so doth] a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom [and] honour.

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My kids heard the phrase "oral sex" for the first time, from an IFB pulpit.
Our pastor told us that blacks were meant to be slaves told jokes about blacks from the pulpit.
A visiting pastor also poked fun at blacks from the pulpit.
Another pastor, who didn't want his wife to get pregnant, divulged to us, from the pulpit, the gory details of his wife's miscarriage
There's more but I think that's enough.


I hear stuff like this all the time. How can one call themselves "preaching the word of God" when what one is saying is opinion and not substantiated or backed up with scripture?

Ecclesiastes 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: [so doth] a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom [and] honour.

Good post, heartstrings. I am so thankful I've never been a member of a church with such an indiscreet pastor!

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Okay so by innocent I was not implying she had no part in it. I am just saying that I have seen many girls in my life act this way. Many who never had a Father figure around or were the victims of some form of abuse. Not wanting to blame things on society but many girls are taught that is the only way to get attention. Sadly many men are not getting the attention they need from their wives so when something like this happens where some girls gives them attention they are wanting and vice versa this type of thing happens. Let this be a lesson to all. Father's are you giving your daughters the attention they need? Spouses are you giving your partners the attention they need? God bless. :)

:amen: None of us are above temptation in this area and some are more at risk than others in this area. We ALWAYS need to be on guard.

A good pastor in this area back in the 80s found himself counseling a woman with marital problems. It became obvious that marriage was heading to divorce and she kept coming to him for counsel. As can so easily happen in such situations, they began to have feelings for one another. This pastor shared that with our pastor and our pastor told him he should immediately stop counseling that woman, have someone else direct her to another person for counseling and to cut off all non-public contact with her. Well, he didn't heed our pastors words. The woman and her husband divorced, that pastor and her began a relationship in secret...but being a small town it didn't stay secret long. He was fired from his pastors job. The former pastor and the woman moved away, got married and the last I heard were still together and he was working in a secular job.

If we don't keep the whole armour of God on, if we don't keep guard over our heart, if we don't take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, then we have opened a door for the world, the flesh and the devil to hit us hard.

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I'd have to strongly disagree that, if she were seducing the man, that she would still be innocent. In the eyes of the law, the married man would be guilty because of her age. But, truth to tell, girls are "older" in the ways of the world now than they were even when I was a teen (and believe me, we knew what was what...and that was almost 40 years ago).

This girl was 15 (or 16 by some accounts). The age of consent varies from state to state, but the average is 16 (14 in Arkansas! :blink: ). In this sex-saturated society in which we now live, kids are growing up being taught via tv, music, and even home and school (yes, even in Christian schools) that sex is cool, the way to go, okay, etc.

I agree that the lion's share of the blame falls on the man, because he is an adult. But again, something tells me that she wasn't the innocent victim she's portraying. Even if she was only 15/16. As heart pointed out, teens know how to seduce....and Wilchbla hit the nail on the head.


I watched the video and, though I think it is a representation of only one IFB church (and obviously only one, I might add), I also think they gave the pastor in question plenty of opportunity to explain the situation. He chose not to do so. I also note that the one pastor who cooperated with the interview did an excellent job of explaining that one IFB church does not represent any other IFB church. He also took the proper approach to the whole situation, in my opinion. Kudos to him.

Where did we get the idea that this girl suduced this man? How many of us know a 10, 11, 12 year old girl that is just that -- a little girl. They still hug adults, they are open and loving and very naive. When is the age that this disappears? I'm sure everyone would agree that it is a different age for different girls. There's no reason to believe that a 16 year old can't still be innocent -- especially if she has lived in a "sheltered" lifestyle. It's also reasonable to believe that this girl would be inhibited by a man who holds a position of power (yes, an usher is a position which sets one apart from the rest of the congregation) and would not neccesarily scream when he approaches her.

No one else has said it but I am going to. This sounds like rape. It doesn't mean the church had anything to do with it, or that the pastor should bear any blame (though I think the public shaming is disgusting). But it reaks of rape and the guilty man should face the appropriate consequences. She could have been a lewd seductress, but it appears that she was a little girl. Shame on him. Edited by mattd

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I heard about it but didn't have the stomach to watch it. I know a lot of bad things go on in IFB but I did not like how they made us look like a cult group. Of course that should not be a surprise to any of us...I'm sure the media was thrilled to have enough stories to fill an hour (or whatever) of a tv show.

Hopefully they will cover the Muslims next.

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I watched the video and, though I think it is a representation of only one IFB church (and obviously only one, I might add), I also think they gave the pastor in question plenty of opportunity to explain the situation. He chose not to do so. I also note that the one pastor who cooperated with the interview did an excellent job of explaining that one IFB church does not represent any other IFB church. He also took the proper approach to the whole situation, in my opinion. Kudos to him.

Where did we get the idea that this girl suduced this man? How many of us know a 10, 11, 12 year old girl that is just that -- a little girl. They still hug adults, they are open and loving and very naive. When is the age that this disappears? I'm sure everyone would agree that it is a different age for different girls. There's no reason to believe that a 16 year old can't still be innocent -- especially if she has lived in a "sheltered" lifestyle. It's also reasonable to believe that this girl would be inhibited by a man who holds a position of power (yes, an usher is a position which sets one apart from the rest of the congregation) and would not neccesarily scream when he approaches her.

No one else has said it but I am going to. This sounds like rape. It doesn't mean the church had anything to do with it, or that the pastor should bear any blame (though I think the public shaming is disgusting). But it reaks of rape and the guilty man should face the appropriate consequences. She could have been a lewd seductress, but it appears that she was a little girl. Shame on him.

Did you check out the links Bro Matt posted? #23 I think.

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There is a growing amount of hate and anger among "Christians" against the IFB "Movement" which has worsened since this 20/20 thing. Some people are so angry and hateful against IFB churches and pastors they have lost sight of being a true Christian. Let's not let this distract us.....

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Annie, no, I wasn't addressing your post. I was responding to the idea that she would be innocent even if she did the seducing (someone else posted the idea).

mattd - it most certainly is rape, in the eyes of the law, if she was below the age of consent. If she didn't seduce him, even if she's of age, it was rape (and I qualify that because at 16, many girls - even "sheltered" - know too much about the world). And, as Annie pointed out, it could very well have been the man using his position as an older man who instigated it. I've seen both happen...and I've seen girls as young as 11 try to seduce a man (and it has worked: one I know took off with his 11 year old student (who did work her wiles - it's still his fault, but she instigated), crossed state lines and became the object of a manhunt.

I do feel bad for her, no matter how it started, that she would have to come back to the same church where he is. I honestly don't think that's wise. And, since she was actually the victim (again, no matter how it started), he should have been the one to find another church. And I would never have allowed my daughter to stand up and read a confession to the church like that: unless that man were also to publicly confess his greater sin! FWIW - I wanted to clarify - in my post where I said I wouldn't forgive, I was talking about the man...not the daughter. If it were my daughter (even if she started it), I wouldn't be anywhere near that man, and wouldn't put my daughter through being near him.

.

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I agree that if a girl is trying to seduce a man sexually, she shares in the blame for the sexual act. (I don't know if you were addressing my post here; just in case you are, I'm clarifying what I said.) I don't know much about the situation (with Tina Anderson and Ernie Willis), but from what I've read on both sides, I don't think that this was an instance of Tina seducing Ernie. I think it was an instance of Ernie seducing Tina, and Tina being led astray by an older man who took advantage of her. Am I saying she was not at all to blame? Only God knows who was to blame for what in this situation. All I was saying (in general) is that a woman (even if she dresses immodestly) is not to blame for assault/rape.


Annie how you interpet the situation were my thoughts exactly. Here we have a young female who was sexually assaulted by her father. This puts her in an emtional state which can be easily manipulated. Many men prey on emotionally weak women, especially sickos who prey on children. Many times they groom these children and tell them what they need to hear. They fill that emotional void and gain trust this way. Once the trust is gained, these females are pretty much under their control. Anyways, statutory rape is statutory rape. I want to know why in the world we are putting judgment on a situation we really don't know. We do not know if she was dressing immodestly. I would assume she wasn't based on the church she was attending or the clothes in her closet. What we do know is that Ernie had sex with a minor, and that is blatantly against the law.

I believe the pastor should have handled the situation differently. He probably did not understand the psychological aspect of the situation. She did not need to be in front of the church aplogizing. The most condemning peice of evidence against the pastor is the other three members of the church saying that this was brought about like a totally different situation. Also, I am going to agree with the new pastor of Trinity. Ernie should have been out the door and should have been encouraged to turn himself in. As for the police, I wish the reporter would have dug into the story further. She would have realized that the pastor had reported the abuse and the police where incompetent. Instead she was too focused on tearing down the IFB church.

What was real frustrating about this episode of 20/20 was that the reporter could not get it through her thick skull that IFB churches are INDEPENDENT. How one pastor runs his IFB church is independent from how another one does.

I will say that the young pastor did a very good job. She was really trying to portray him in a horrible light, but he just wouldn't crack.

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I find the the video rather disturbing. Im sorry but those supposed IFB churches protrayed is just that supposed IFB........ More like Insane FundaMentalydefunct baptspeudo. And that news anchor is so liberal and mentaly defunct herself. How many times did that preacher tell her that not all IFBs are like that?

Edited by Kleptes

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I'm sure ABCs ratings are through the roof thanks to some deluded Christians and other "Christians"
helping to keep this fire burning...I do not mean any of us participating in this discussion at OB.

Legally, the man did rape the then 15 year old. Sadly, the entire story was more about these
terrible cultish IFB Churches not about the failure of our judicial system to punish justly. I don't
agree that the churches involved were terrible or cultish.

Men! never, never, never put yourselves in a position where Satan could take advantage of your
sinful nature. If Satan could take advantage he will use every possible tool at his disposal. He
could even use a teenage girl unwittingly or willingly to aid in tearing your testimony to shreds.

Who do you think is laughing at this more ABC's CEO or Satan? You know its Satan. ABC is
just another tool, albeit quite a willing tool, in Satan's arsenal.

Heartstrings already posted the scripture but, we need to see it a lot and often.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1 Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Read the Bible and don't be found "ignorant of his devices."

Edited by 1Tim115

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I'm sure ABCs ratings are through the roof thanks to some deluded Christians and other "Christians"
helping to keep this fire burning...I do not mean any of us participating in this discussion at OB.

Legally, the man did rape the then 15 year old. Sadly, the entire story was more about these
terrible cultish IFB Churches not about the failure of our judicial system to punish justly. I don't
agree that the churches involved were terrible or cultish.

Men! never, never, never put yourselves in a position where Satan could take advantage of your
sinful nature. If Satan could take advantage he will use every possible tool at his disposal. He
could even use a teenage girl unwittingly or willingly to aid in tearing your testimony to shreds.

Who do you think is laughing at this more ABC's CEO or Satan? You know its Satan. ABC is
just another tool, albeit quite a willing tool, in Satan's arsenal.

Heartstrings already posted the scripture but, we need to see it a lot and often.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1 Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Read the Bible and don't be found "ignorant of his devices."

:amen:

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I was just on a southern baptist forum reading posts about this topic. I was disgusted at how much hatred was coming from sb's toward IFB's. Evidently some of these sb's are former IFBer's who had "bad" experiences in their church. Some said the KJB was from satan and that our doctrine was from the pit of hell. I was shocked and appalled.

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I was just on a southern baptist forum reading posts about this topic. I was disgusted at how much hatred was coming from sb's toward IFB's. Evidently some of these sb's are former IFBer's who had "bad" experiences in their church. Some said the KJB was from satan and that our doctrine was from the pit of hell. I was shocked and appalled.


Do you have a link for that thread/topic?
I'd like to see it.

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Most often, if they are telling the truth, those who used to attend an IFB but left did so not because of actual wrongs, but because they didn't like being expected to live according to the Word of God. Sure, there are bad things all around in places, but for the most part, those who tried and dislike IFB has more to do with their own rebellious hearts than any actual bad or wrongs they encountered.

Typically, when pressed, one either discovers those with "bad IFB experiences" are either lying or the real problem they had was being told if they were in Christ they should be living according to the whole Word of God. Many times one will hear former IFB women complaining that the IFB tried to "tell them how to dress", and by what they are wearing it's clear why such was pointed out to them. They wanted to dress immodestly and the IFB taught modest dress. At times one will hear a former IFB guy complaining that the IFB told them it was sin for him to drink a couple of beers while watching football. I've even heard former IFB couples complaining that their old IFB church told them it was sin for them to live together before marriage even though they were "really in love", planned to be married but just couldn't afford it yet.

So, while there are some legitimate complaints to be made regarding some IFB churches and/or pastors, I believe for the most part the complaints come from those who want to have their Christianity and the world at the same time and were not given license to do that in an IFB church.

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I agree. It seems to me, they want to have one foot in the world and one foot in the bible, and how dare you say they are wrong. Read that thread I posted, it's an eye opener!

This is why the watered down and worldly Christian churches are so popular. Scriture tells us there are few who will actually follow Christ. Most professing Christians in America want the good feeling, the public prestige, the business and social contacts that come from attending church, but they also want to continue living according to their will (not God's) and they want their christianity to fit into their lifestyle, not expect him to change his lifestyle to fit with biblical Christianity.

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This is why the watered down and worldly Christian churches are so popular. Scriture tells us there are few who will actually follow Christ. Most professing Christians in America want the good feeling, the public prestige, the business and social contacts that come from attending church, but they also want to continue living according to their will (not God's) and they want their christianity to fit into their lifestyle, not expect him to change his lifestyle to fit with biblical Christianity.

What you describe above is exactly why I left the Southern Baptist church I had attended for so long. I just couldn't stomach the wordly attitudes. The pastor seemed to revel in being interviewed by secular media, and they would make quite a production of inviting to the pulpit area the church members who happened to be professional athletes. Professional athletes are not role models of holiness. The church members dressed the way they wanted to (rather than following a Biblical model), they indulged in worldly entertainment and secular attitudes and were exceedingly proud of their multi-million dollar church "complex". It wasn't a church, it was more like a social club. *sigh* Bad memories. I was SO HAPPY to have discovered that there is such a thing as the IFB movement! I was overjoyed and so grateful to find people who were living, walking, talking and dressing according to values that I had discovered in the Bible!

I read through the Baptist Board thread that Cliffhanger posted. It was disturbing and disappointing. Someone in that thread said the KJV only movement was from Satan because it discouraged people from reading their Bibles. *sigh* Where do people get such ideas? The IFBs that I know not only read their Bibles, but they earnestly and sincerely seek to live by what their Bibles tell them.

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