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Pastoral Qualifications


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You folks don't seem to grasp the issue. If a congregation has a pastor that is divorced and that congregation is being led to serve the Lord than it is up to that congregation to decide whether to keep him or not. It doesn't matter what we think. And I guarantee God is more pleased with that then with some Pharisical pastor (with only "one living wife") who leads the sheep no place but to the offering plate.

Scripture says God's desire is for us to obey His Word. An unqualified person acting as pastor of a congregation that thinks they are great and are claiming to be edified, is not acting within the will of God and is not pleasing God with their disobedience.
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I think I know where we differ, I did very much appreciate your post breaking down the qualifications though...thanks.

I think we differ in the respect that you believe a Pastor marrying a divorced woman is only a one time sin of adultery. I would contest it is a continuous and willing sin of adultery. If you steal something when you are little it's a one time thing, if you slip and lust after another woman in your heart you've just committed adultery but it was a one time thing...probably repented and asked forgiveness. But, if you are CONTINUALLY in a relationship with a woman who is divorced, this is not a one time thing...this is continuous and to me the Pastor would NOT be blameless.

Can a man who has made a mistake and lusted after a woman which means he committed adultery in his heart still be a Pastor? I believe so, because it was a one time sin and as long as he repents (guess you really won't know since we can't read minds or hearts) but I think you get my point. But, I have a hard time believing that is the same as being married to a divorced woman...you are committing adultery every day basically (willingly and knowingly I might add).

The man who marries a divorced woman could be said to have committed adultery with her when this occurs. However, from that point onward they are husband and wife. There is no condoning of wrongly married couples getting a divorce (sin), nor of wrongly married couples being considered to be in perpetual sin whether it's because one was divorced, was not saved, etc.

Like all sin, if it is confessed God is faithful to forgive. From that point forward that sin is gone as far as the east from the west. God can and does bless marriages of those who married wrongly. If their wrongful marriage was a perpetual sin in the eyes of God then He would not bless their marriage.
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The man who marries a divorced woman could be said to have committed adultery with her when this occurs. However, from that point onward they are husband and wife. There is no condoning of wrongly married couples getting a divorce (sin), nor of wrongly married couples being considered to be in perpetual sin whether it's because one was divorced, was not saved, etc.

Like all sin, if it is confessed God is faithful to forgive. From that point forward that sin is gone as far as the east from the west. God can and does bless marriages of those who married wrongly. If their wrongful marriage was a perpetual sin in the eyes of God then He would not bless their marriage.


Hmm, I suppose I have a hard time understanding this. God will forgive, surely but if God still considers the divorced wife married to the other person woudn't the Pastor have to repent and separate with his wife? Or does he ask for forgiveness everyday he is living with her because it's just a new day of adultery isn't it?

It's as if I would lie one day and ask God to forgive me, then I lie the next day and ask God to forgive me then I lie the next day and ask God to forgive me....but really I should have repented and stopped lying (or made a concerted effort to never do it again if I could). Of course, maybe 6 months down the road I lie again and we go through the process again. But, if I continue to do it everyday it seems that is not the right way go go about repenting of our sins and asking forgiveness. Do you see where I am coming from? Am I wrong on this?
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Hmm, I suppose I have a hard time understanding this. God will forgive, surely but if God still considers the divorced wife married to the other person woudn't the Pastor have to repent and separate with his wife? Or does he ask for forgiveness everyday he is living with her because it's just a new day of adultery isn't it?

It's as if I would lie one day and ask God to forgive me, then I lie the next day and ask God to forgive me then I lie the next day and ask God to forgive me....but really I should have repented and stopped lying (or made a concerted effort to never do it again if I could). Of course, maybe 6 months down the road I lie again and we go through the process again. But, if I continue to do it everyday it seems that is not the right way go go about repenting of our sins and asking forgiveness. Do you see where I am coming from? Am I wrong on this?

A new marriage has taken place. Though the marriage was entered into wrongly (in sin), whether due to one being divorced, one being unsaved, etc., there is now a new marriage. This couple is married and from that point forward are responsbile to live as a married couple in accord with the Word. Once the sin of their original coupling has been confessed before God, they receive forgiveness and are now accountable to how they deal with their marriage in accord with the Word of God.

A wrongly married couple could not erase the sin of having married a divorced woman by committing more sin by divorcing.
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A new marriage has taken place. Though the marriage was entered into wrongly (in sin), whether due to one being divorced, one being unsaved, etc., there is now a new marriage. This couple is married and from that point forward are responsbile to live as a married couple in accord with the Word. Once the sin of their original coupling has been confessed before God, they receive forgiveness and are now accountable to how they deal with their marriage in accord with the Word of God.

A wrongly married couple could not erase the sin of having married a divorced woman by committing more sin by divorcing.


Ok, I understand what you are saying. But, does God even consider that second marriage a marriage? If not, then it wouldn't be a divorce in God's eyes...only on paper in this world.
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Ok, I understand what you are saying. But, does God even consider that second marriage a marriage? If not, then it wouldn't be a divorce in God's eyes...only on paper in this world.


God does recognize separate marriages as being legitimate marriages. A person that is remarried doesn't have to divorce his current spouse and try to hook back up again with his first one. Jesus said...

John 4:18, "For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."

This woman was shacking up with a man, and Christ recognized that it wasn't a marriage. He went further to recognize that the woman in the past had five separate marriages as well.

You already know where I stand on some divorce being biblical, but this helps to show that even if a remarriage was unbiblical it isn't a case of perpetual sin.
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Jerry,

I generally disagree with PastorJ's comments on this thread but I think he is right on this one: " A Pastor who is married to a divorced woman committed adultery (1 time, not living daily in it)." Scripturally once a divorced person has remarried, though that act is wrong, it is not a case of living in continued adultery.

Some scriptural support.


"Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted?...."

And another that gives an indication in that direction: "John 4:17-18 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."

Jesus said this woman had had "five husbands" and was currently living with someone not her husband. Now I suppose that this last verse isn't an airtight "proof", it is faintly possible that this woman had been widowed five times, but that seems pretty unlikely particularly in light of the fact that she was living in immorality with someone she was not married to when Jesus met her. It seems much more likely she had been divorced from some or all of her "five husbands"that Christ mentions. The fact that he says " thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband" seems to show he recognized the first five as a state of marriage rather than a state of continued adultery. Since the act of marrying a divorced person is an act he equaled with adultery, it seems that marrying a divorced person must be a one time act of adultery rather than a continued state particularly in light of Jeremiah 3:1.


Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Its very clear form the Holy Scriptures, that the woman that has divorce, who has remarried, that as long as her 1st husband shall live, she shall be called an adulteress.

So that means you two disagree with the Bible by saying it just a one time thing.

Oh, the man she is married to is aiding her in being an adulteress, so no, he is not qualified to be a pastor of a New Testament Church, or at least on that's head is Jesus Christ.

I say that because anyone can start a church and they are free to use what ever rules they want. But of course they would not be following Christ. We have many such churches in this world.
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Brother Jerry,

Would you counsel a remarried woman to divorce her current spouse?

Would you counsel her to try and hook up with her original spouse, even if he was remarried as well?

Please don't brush these questions aside, they're very serious and very real applicable questions based on what you just said.

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Chevy,
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sorry, Pastorj, but lust is not specificially listed as a disqualification for the pastorate. Neither is adultery. Yes, both are sin, but neither is listed as a disqualification, according to 1 Timothy 3. And that's the Scripture you're basing your argument upon.

However, I think we all agree that a pastor caught in adultery should leave the pastorate, and any good report he may have had would be destroyed. He may have even been ruling his own house well, just not his own life. But you like to say "show me the Scripture," and I'm asking you for your scriptural proof that lust and adultery specifically disqualify a man from the pastorate, and you can't do it. Because there is none.

Same goes for pastor's wife being under subjection - not in Scripture. You say there are no qualifications specifically mentioned for pastors' wives - only for deacons' wives - and I agree. 1 Timothy 3 says nothing about a pastor's wife, which you have clearly and correctly stated.

But you also claim Scripture says a pastor's wife must be under her husband's subjection, and I've asked you to produce that Scripture. You can't, because it's not there. If "ruling his own house well" applies to family, why are children singled out? Scripture does say that all wives are to be submissive to their husbands, but nothing specifically says a pastor's wife must be.

The point I'm trying to make is that you trumpet that Scripture gives qualifications for deacons' wives but not for pastors' wives, except for subjection. I'm pointing out that Scripture doesn't say anything about your subjection claim. Therefore you're adding something to 1 Timothy 3 that's not there.

You have a tendency to say "show me the specific Scripture" when you disagree with someone, but when someone turns the tables on you, you do the same thing you accuse them of doing.
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Chevy,

We aren't in disagreement on the adultery piece. If you read my post I make it clear that the sin of adultery in itself does not disqualify a man. It causes him to be disqualified because he is no longer blameless.

As to the subjection. Again, I said in my breakdown of the qualifications that the pastor must rule his own house well, having his children under subjection. The wife is under his leadership in the house and therefore part of the this qualification. That is about it for the qualifications of a wife. The reason for this, is she is a help meet to her husband, not part of the leadership. On the other hand, a Deacon's wife is very involved in ministering to people and therefore has Scriptural qualifications.

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Brother Jerry,

Would you counsel a remarried woman to divorce her current spouse?

Would you counsel her to try and hook up with her original spouse, even if he was remarried as well?

Please don't brush these questions aside, they're very serious and very real applicable questions based on what you just said.




1st, please remember, I'm not calling them a 2nd rate Christians. I firmly believe if they truly seek God for forgiveness the sin can and will be forgiven. No I would not counsel her to divorce and return to her 1st husband, that would be adding sin on top of sin. Yet I have heard of a few that would do so. The only thing I pointed to was her husband would not meet the qualification to be a pastor of Jesus' New Testament Church.
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No I would not counsel her to divorce and return to her 1st husband, that would be adding sin on top of sin. Yet I have heard of a few that would do so. The only thing I pointed to was her husband would not meet the qualification to be a pastor of Jesus' New Testament Church.



Well I agree with that but I wonder how you reconcile that with your post #37 where you seem to say that you feel a divorced person that has remarried is living in a state of continued adultery if their ex-spouse is still living. It would seem that if those where your views you would indeed counsel someone who had divorced and re-married to divorce their current spouse. Obviously you couldn't condone a person staying is a state of "continued adultery". Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying in post #37 though.
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Seems there’s some thing we don’t like about the Bible, perhaps when it comes to divorce, there be many things we do not like about it.

Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
The verse is clear, as long as the woman’s husband liveth, she is know as an adulteress

Now. Let us stick to topic, if a man marries her, he is no longer blameless, therefore he does not meet the qualifications of a New Testament pastor in Jesus Churches.

Off topic portion, no, I would not advise anyone to sin more, add sin on top of sin. For this woman to go through another divorce, would be to sin again.

God’s thoughts on divorce seems to be harsh to us humans, and we look for loop hole to get around God’s way.

1Co 7:10 ¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Of course there is a choice, stay married, don’t get a divorce, or if the divorced comes, do not get married. Yes, I know, few there be that likes those choices, so there be few that obey God on this matter and there be many that many that refuse to obey this. And they be those who will not take a proper stand on this fearing what people will think, and today we have many divorced and remarried people in many churches so many pastors deal with this subject very liberally trying to appease those who have divorced and remarried, and or in order to perform marriages for such people.

I know of many divorce people who have remarried with a church wedding with their pastor performing the ceremony. As far as I'm concerned that is mockery.

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How sad that a clear Biblical principle has to be the source of such an argument with supposedly likeminded people.

My dad, after my mom died, married a divorced woman. He did it in full knowledge that the Bible teaches he can minister in absolutely any way other than pastor and deacon. He currently teaches Sunday School, does marriage and financial counseling, and of course is an active and faithful member of the church. He is serving God in a full manner. He is simply not a pastor, and not a deacon. How hard is that to understand?

In my opinion, the "you can get divorced" thing in the Bible is speaking of during Jewish betrothal, i.e. see Joseph and Mary. Once the couple is physically joined, I believe divorce is not an option (in God's eyes) unless there is danger to the spouse, in which case you of course separate...or of course if the lost half leaves, he leaves. Remarriage not smiled upon by God.

Practically speaking, those verse are pretty much moot these days. Everyone is getting divorced and remarried, its almost useless to try to enforce these days. However....a pastor or deacon must be a married couple that has not been divorced, EITHER of them. The qualifications put for the deacons wife could easily be applied to a pastors wife and pretty much if a wife is up to par with those qualifications, she hasn't been divorced in her life.

For those who would put up the "straw man" of that "lust in your heart" stuff...that's ridiculous. Let God be the judge of that.

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Seems there’s some thing we don’t like about the Bible, perhaps when it comes to divorce, there be many things we do not like about it.

Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
The verse is clear, as long as the woman’s husband liveth, she is know as an adulteress


Question. How many times does a woman need to commit adultery in order to be an adulteress? Just one right?

Now. Let us stick to topic, if a man marries her, he is no longer blameless, therefore he does not meet the qualifications of a New Testament pastor in Jesus Churches.


To that I agree, I do not think a man is qualified to pastor if either he or his wife have been divorced and re-married no matter if it was their fault or the fault of the former spouse.

Off topic portion, no, I would not advise anyone to sin more, add sin on top of sin. For this woman to go through another divorce, would be to sin again.


Let me get this straight, as I am having a hard time believing you would actually hold this position as it seems totally illogical. You believe that a woman that has been divorced and remarried is living in a state of continued adultery right? Yet even though you believe this second marriage is a state of continued adultery you still think it would be wrong to divorce again to get out of this state of continued adultery. I guess I don't see how that position could make any sort of sense. If I believed a re-married divorcee was in a state of constant adultery the sensible thing would be to tell them to get out of that situation just like you would tell unmarried people that were "living together" that they were in the wrong and need to get out of that situation either by separating or getting married.



Of course there is a choice, stay married, don’t get a divorce, or if the divorced comes, do not get married. Yes, I know, few there be that likes those choices, so there be few that obey God on this matter and there be many that many that refuse to obey this. And they be those who will not take a proper stand on this fearing what people will think, and today we have many divorced and remarried people in many churches so many pastors deal with this subject very liberally trying to appease those who have divorced and remarried, and or in order to perform marriages for such people.

I know of many divorce people who have remarried with a church wedding with their pastor performing the ceremony. As far as I'm concerned that is mockery.


I have no problem with that, I agree that it is wrong to get a divorce, and having done that it is wrong to re-marry while the ex-spouse is living. The issue however is what is the biblical approach when someone has already been divorced and re-married. I think such a situation is not a desirable one and I do not think individuals in such situations are qualified to pastor, yet I do not think they are living in a state of continued sin by staying in their current marriage. Contrary wise I think they would be sinning to get out of it. Your position, as I understand it anyway, seems to be saying they are in the sin of adultery for staying in the marriage, and in sin if they get out of it. In short they are stuck in a state of sin and nothing they could do about it would be right. I don't think God puts people in that situation. There is always a right choice available even if past wrong choices have placed you in a undesirable situation. Edited by Seth-Doty
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