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Tradition - what are your thoughts?

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In particular, no-one can prove dispensationalism from Scripture. You accept it as "received truth" & refer to various Scriptures to support the doctrine, but which do not teach the doctrine.

With all due respect, you view/interpret Scripture through a different filter than we do, based on the postings you've made in numerous threads. We're more than happy to explain why we believe what we do and to allow you to explain why you believe the way you do - but that doesn't mean you have the right to come onto our board and tell us we're wrong and expect to be welcome here.

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These are the doctrines that are discussed & disputed here. We may be convinced by the logic, but others may be equally convinced otherwise.



How can you truly be convinced of something logically and someone else also be convience of something totally opposite by logic; that is illogical.

You can not say that both X and not-X are true.

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With all due respect, you view/interpret Scripture through a different filter than we do, based on the postings you've made in numerous threads. We're more than happy to explain why we believe what we do and to allow you to explain why you believe the way you do - but that doesn't mean you have the right to come onto our board and tell us we're wrong and expect to be welcome here.


With all due respect, shouldn't we all view scripture thourgh the same filter?

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With all due respect, shouldn't we all view scripture thourgh the same filter?


He is obviously not Baptist, or if he is its no Baptist Teachings I have ever heard, so the moderator said what I am placing in bold letters above.

For instants, if, that is if I went to say a Roman Catholic message board and started declaring everyone of them was wrong, I would have no right to think that they would make me feel welcomed me with open arms. Yet if I went to their message board to learn about them, ask a question, discuss issues, not coming out saying that they were wrong, them I feel they would welcome me.

At the beginning I used two ifs for a very good reason, I do not go to message boards of those who believe different than us. And I sure would not go to them declaring that they are wrong, there is such a thing as respect, respect what others believe.

I'm here hoping to speak to and with like minded people, not those of other beliefs.Of course other beliefs are welcome, if they will stay clam, show respect, and respect our beliefs.

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So, you're saying you are accursed! For bringing another gospel here, that would qualify you within the context of Gal 1:6-9.



Paul was speaking of Biblical Doctrine, not denominational doctrine.

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No I did not say that we have no custom, tradition. We have many traditions, we have church services on Sunday morning. Generally we start with the tradition of singing hymns and praying, we have the tradition of that starting at 10:00 AM. After the hymns we have the traditions of having Sunday school. We have the tradition of Sunday school ending before 11:00 AM. Generally at 11:00 AM we have the tradition, custom, of starting off with some hymns. After which we have the tradition of saying a prayer and taking up the offering. Generally after that we have the tradition of singing a few more songs, maybe more prayers, them having the preaching services.

We also have the custom, tradition, of having Sunday night services.

Jesus held to a tradition in order to teach us to attend public worship, notice His custom in the verse below.

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his
custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for
to read.


Jerry,

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

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Paul was speaking of Biblical Doctrine, not denominational doctrine.


Thanks for clearing that up; as long as we understand that its just your denomination's ideas you present. We can live with that and take it with a grain of salt.

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With all due respect, shouldn't we all view scripture thourgh the same filter?


Yes, we should view Scripture as God intended, but our own biases/viewpoints/beliefs, etc., can influence how we interpret certain passages of Scripture. That's what has led to the multiple denominations we have today. There are different viewpoints even among IFSB folks, i.e., dispensationalism vs convenant theology. Depending on which of those you believe determines how you would interpret certain Scriptures.

In another thread, someone asked if a pastor is qualified if he marries a divorced woman, even though she would be his only wife. I believe that would disqualify a man from the pastorate based on my reading of Luke 16:18. But other IFSB churches don't see that situation as a disqualifier.

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Yes, we should view Scripture as God intended, but our own biases/viewpoints/beliefs, etc., can influence how we interpret certain passages of Scripture. That's what has led to the multiple denominations we have today. There are different viewpoints even among IFSB folks, i.e., dispensationalism vs convenant theology. Depending on which of those you believe determines how you would interpret certain Scriptures.

In another thread, someone asked if a pastor is qualified if he marries a divorced woman, even though she would be his only wife. I believe that would disqualify a man from the pastorate based on my reading of Luke 16:18. But other IFSB churches don't see that situation as a disqualifier.



But, when we begin to allow "our own biases/viewpoints/beliefs, etc," to cloud how we interpret scripture, we are failing to please God. We are to "interpret" scripture through scripture not through our own view point. I don't deny that you are correct in what you say about allowing our own biases to get in the way but that does not make it right. Perhaps that is why we have so many denominations.

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But, when we begin to allow "our own biases/viewpoints/beliefs, etc," to cloud how we interpret scripture, we are failing to please God. We are to "interpret" scripture through scripture not through our own view point. I don't deny that you are correct in what you say about allowing our own biases to get in the way but that does not make it right. Perhaps that is why we have so many denominations.


I agree - you're preaching to the choir. It bothers me when people (including pastors) say, "This is what God told me about this passage" and it goes against what God taught me about the same passage. Both can't be right.

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I agree - you're preaching to the choir. It bothers me when people (including pastors) say, "This is what God told me about this passage" and it goes against what God taught me about the same passage. Both can't be right.


Both arn't right. It is sad to see so many who willfully or blindly choose to believe those things which are so clearly false. It saddens me to see those who get mad when someone honestly points out the error of their way rather than openly seeing the truth.

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Yes, we should view Scripture as God intended, but our own biases/viewpoints/beliefs, etc., can influence how we interpret certain passages of Scripture. That's what has led to the multiple denominations we have today. There are different viewpoints even among IFSB folks, i.e., dispensationalism vs convenant theology. Depending on which of those you believe determines how you would interpret certain Scriptures.

Do our viewpoints begin with Scripture, or with what we are taught? (i.e. tradition, because we are taught by sermons rather than systematic Bible study.) Also it is the teaching of our first Pastor/elder that gives us our basic understanding of Scripture. As we mature in the faith, search the Scriptures & read books, & discuss theology, our views develop & may change.

I know that some on this forum disagree with my covenant theology, but "covenant" (or "testament") occurs over 300 times in Scripture, & our Bibles are divided into only 2 Testaments. "Dispensation" does not occur in the OT & in the 4 times in the NT, means "stewardship" rather than the meaning given by dispensationalists.

I am charged with coming here & trying to change the views of IFBs. Is there a consistent belief system for IFBs & eschatology? Has this site a doctrinal basis? The British FIEC has a basis of faith that is basically I, F, & B, deliberately framed to allow for disagreement on matters where Bible-believing evangelicals disagree.

8. BAPTISM AND THE LORD'S SUPPER
Baptism and the Lord's Supper have been given to the churches by Christ as visible signs of the gospel. Baptism is a symbol of union with Christ and entry into his Church but does not impart spiritual life. The Lord's Supper is a commemoration of Christ's sacrifice offered once for all and involves no change in the bread and wine. All its blessings are received by faith.

9. THE FUTURE
The Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory. He will raise the dead and judge the world in righteousness. The wicked will be sent to eternal punishment and the righteous will be welcomed into a life of eternal joy in fellowship with God. God will make all things new and will be glorified forever.

The mode of baptism is not specified, nor is there a statement on the millennium.

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Do our viewpoints begin with Scripture, or with what we are taught? (i.e. tradition, because we are taught by sermons rather than systematic Bible study.) Also it is the teaching of our first Pastor/elder that gives us our basic understanding of Scripture. As we mature in the faith, search the Scriptures & read books, & discuss theology, our views develop & may change.

I know that some on this forum disagree with my covenant theology, but "covenant" (or "testament") occurs over 300 times in Scripture, & our Bibles are divided into only 2 Testaments. "Dispensation" does not occur in the OT & in the 4 times in the NT, means "stewardship" rather than the meaning given by dispensationalists.

I am charged with coming here & trying to change the views of IFBs. Is there a consistent belief system for IFBs & eschatology? Has this site a doctrinal basis? The British FIEC has a basis of faith that is basically I, F, & B, deliberately framed to allow for disagreement on matters where Bible-believing evangelicals disagree.


The mode of baptism is not specified, nor is there a statement on the millennium.


The question isn't whether I began "my viewpoints" with someone teaching me but was that teaching from the Word of God. If you teach me A and it is not from the Word of God then I must reject A. My beliefs are to begin and end with the Word of God since it is the only source of authority which I have.

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I agree - you're preaching to the choir. It bothers me when people (including pastors) say, "This is what God told me about this passage" and it goes against what God taught me about the same passage. Both can't be right.


Bit off topic, maybe.

It gets me when you have those people that says two people who have a different opinion are both right, he is right to do what he does in his church and or situation, your right to do what you did in your church or situation. I fail how anyone can come to that conclusion, that two opinions that contradict each other can both be right.

It would be nice if there was some way for each of us to remove the influence that the world has on us when it comes to determining what is right in the sight of God. Some seem to claim they can and will be quick to tell you that they're always right.

I know of 2, or maybe 3, churches that ordained a pastor that was married to a divorce woman, 2 churches that ordained a pastor that was divorced and remarried. I was totally shocked at the churches that did this.

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Do our viewpoints begin with Scripture, or with what we are taught? (i.e. tradition, because we are taught by sermons rather than systematic Bible study.) Also it is the teaching of our first Pastor/elder that gives us our basic understanding of Scripture. As we mature in the faith, search the Scriptures & read books, & discuss theology, our views develop & may change.

I know that some on this forum disagree with my covenant theology, but "covenant" (or "testament") occurs over 300 times in Scripture, & our Bibles are divided into only 2 Testaments. "Dispensation" does not occur in the OT & in the 4 times in the NT, means "stewardship" rather than the meaning given by dispensationalists.

I am charged with coming here & trying to change the views of IFBs. Is there a consistent belief system for IFBs & eschatology? Has this site a doctrinal basis? The British FIEC has a basis of faith that is basically I, F, & B, deliberately framed to allow for disagreement on matters where Bible-believing evangelicals disagree.


The mode of baptism is not specified, nor is there a statement on the millennium.


Your charged with coming here? What does that mean? If that is so, perhaps you should not be here. Yes, if what I put in bold above is true, you should be sent on your happy way.


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Your charged with coming here? What does that mean? If that is so, perhaps you should not be here. Yes, if what I put in bold above is true, you should be sent on your happy way.





I believe he means charged in the sense of being accused of not being assigned the duty of, though I can not speak for him.

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Thanks for clearing that up; as long as we understand that its just your denomination's ideas you present. We can live with that and take it with a grain of salt.


I don't think he was saying what you are suggesting Tim, though I can not speak for anyone but myself.

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Bit off topic, maybe.

It gets me when you have those people that says two people who have a different opinion are both right, he is right to do what he does in his church and or situation, your right to do what you did in your church or situation. I fail how anyone can come to that conclusion, that two opinions that contradict each other can both be right.

It would be nice if there was some way for each of us to remove the influence that the world has on us when it comes to determining what is right in the sight of God. Some seem to claim they can and will be quick to tell you that they're always right.

I know of 2, or maybe 3, churches that ordained a pastor that was married to a divorce woman, 2 churches that ordained a pastor that was divorced and remarried. I was totally shocked at the churches that did this.



Are we speaking of scriptural divorce and remarriage?

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I believe he means charged in the sense of being accused of not being assigned the duty of, though I can not speak for him.

That's what I meant, Dan. My concern is understanding Scripture, applying it & preaching Christ as Saviour, Lord, God & King.

I know that there are many eschatological views represented here. Should we all go away because we don't agree with the interpretation of Scripture, even though we are united in Christ & his Gospel? I have made friends here, & had "Amens" to my posts.

When we disagree, should we go back & search the Scriptures, or expel those who disagree. Am I disagreeing with individuals, or with essential doctrine of IFBs? Do IFBs reject covenant theology?

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I don't think he was saying what you are suggesting Tim, though I can not speak for anyone but myself.


I thought maybe there had been a break through.

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Should we all go away because we don't agree with the interpretation of Scripture, even though we are united in Christ & his Gospel? I have made friends here, & had "Amens" to my posts.

When we disagree, should we go back & search the Scriptures, or expel those who disagree. Am I disagreeing with individuals, or with essential doctrine of IFBs? Do IFBs reject covenant theology?


Based on what your denomination teaches, I would disagree that we are united. For example, your belief that other forms of baptism – including infant baptism – are as equally valid as immersion baptism prevents you from being a member of the church I pastor. I'm not saying I believe baptism is a requirement for salvation; my point is that I believe other forms of baptism don't follow the example taught in Scripture and are not in accordance with Scripture.

This is not bringing into question your salvation, but Anglicans and fundamentalists are worlds apart in doctrine. Since I have searched the Scriptures, I believe the doctrines taught of the Bible and IFSB is the closet “label” to my understanding of Scripture.

(I hate labels because no one seems to have a solid definition of each label. I agree with parts of various labels, but I didn’t know I leaned dispensationalist until someone called me that. When I researched the term, I discovered that the theology best fit my understand of Scripture, but I’m not a tee-totaler. I guess it’s like being a two-point Calvinist, a five-pointer, or a seven-pointer; I agree with some parts of it, but not all.)

Now, you say you have searched the Scriptures, yet you’ve come up with vastly different doctrines than I and the majority on this board have. Both of us can’t be right. That’s what I meant by interpreting Scripture through filters; we all view Scripture through our own biases, upbringing, and background.

We’re all confident that our interpretation of Scripture is correct, and that’s based on the filters we have at our disposal. If I thought Anglicanism has the correct view of Scripture, then I would be an Anglican. For the life of me, I can’t understand from where Anglicans get their doctrines, just like I don’t understand Mormons, Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, and such. And I’m pretty sure you could say the same thing about IFSB.

While I was in the military, we had to find new churches at each duty station. The first churches we would visit were IFSB churches, because we knew the basics of what they believed and taught. My prayers and research led me to an IFSB church that I believe best fit Christ’s definition of church. Being IFSB gave us a starting point. But we didn’t join the first IFSB church we found in the phone book and then proceed to tell the pastor where he’s wrong. After one move, we visited four different IFSB churches until we found the one God led us to.

From previous post:

In particular, no-one can prove dispensationalism from Scripture. You accept it as "received truth" & refer to various Scriptures to support the doctrine, but which do not teach the doctrine.


I'm pretty sure many posters have given "proofs" to dispensationalism; you just don't accept those proofs, just like those IFSB folks who have given those proofs don't agree with your "proofs" either. It’s obvious that you’re not IFSB, so the problem is someone who isn’t IFSB joining our forum, saying we’re wrong, and then trying to proselytize.

While there are differences in what IFSB folks believe, there are more similarities. When we disagree, it’s a family disagreement. When someone outside the family sticks their nose in, though, we push our differences aside and circle the wagons to protect ourselves from outside attack.

So, while there are some IFSB members here who may agree with covenant theology, they can discuss that here because they're “family,” i.e., fellow IFSB. The same can be said for IFSB'ers who hold to dispensationalism, Calvinism, Arminianism, close/closed communion, the women-in-pants issue, etc. They have the similar upbringing and background. And there are limits even to that; several members who claimed to be IFSB were so extreme that they were shown the door.

But non-IFSB folks are not family in this context, and they are patiently tolerated until they cross the line. I don’t know where that line is, but in my opinion, you have crossed it.

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Based on what your denomination teaches, I would disagree that we are united. For example, your belief that other forms of baptism – including infant baptism – are as equally valid as immersion baptism prevents you from being a member of the church I pastor. I'm not saying I believe baptism is a requirement for salvation; my point is that I believe other forms of baptism don't follow the example taught in Scripture and are not in accordance with Scripture.

This is not bringing into question your salvation, but Anglicans and fundamentalists are worlds apart in doctrine. Since I have searched the Scriptures, I believe the doctrines taught of the Bible and IFSB is the closet “label” to my understanding of Scripture.

(I hate labels because no one seems to have a solid definition of each label. I agree with parts of various labels, but I didn’t know I leaned dispensationalist until someone called me that. When I researched the term, I discovered that the theology best fit my understand of Scripture, but I’m not a tee-totaler. I guess it’s like being a two-point Calvinist, a five-pointer, or a seven-pointer; I agree with some parts of it, but not all.)

Now, you say you have searched the Scriptures, yet you’ve come up with vastly different doctrines than I and the majority on this board have. Both of us can’t be right. That’s what I meant by interpreting Scripture through filters; we all view Scripture through our own biases, upbringing, and background.

We’re all confident that our interpretation of Scripture is correct, and that’s based on the filters we have at our disposal. If I thought Anglicanism has the correct view of Scripture, then I would be an Anglican. For the life of me, I can’t understand from where Anglicans get their doctrines, just like I don’t understand Mormons, Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, and such. And I’m pretty sure you could say the same thing about IFSB.

While I was in the military, we had to find new churches at each duty station. The first churches we would visit were IFSB churches, because we knew the basics of what they believed and taught. My prayers and research led me to an IFSB church that I believe best fit Christ’s definition of church. Being IFSB gave us a starting point. But we didn’t join the first IFSB church we found in the phone book and then proceed to tell the pastor where he’s wrong. After one move, we visited four different IFSB churches until we found the one God led us to.

From previous post:



I'm pretty sure many posters have given "proofs" to dispensationalism; you just don't accept those proofs, just like those IFSB folks who have given those proofs don't agree with your "proofs" either. It’s obvious that you’re not IFSB, so the problem is someone who isn’t IFSB joining our forum, saying we’re wrong, and then trying to proselytize.

While there are differences in what IFSB folks believe, there are more similarities. When we disagree, it’s a family disagreement. When someone outside the family sticks their nose in, though, we push our differences aside and circle the wagons to protect ourselves from outside attack.

So, while there are some IFSB members here who may agree with covenant theology, they can discuss that here because they're “family,” i.e., fellow IFSB. The same can be said for IFSB'ers who hold to dispensationalism, Calvinism, Arminianism, close/closed communion, the women-in-pants issue, etc. They have the similar upbringing and background. And there are limits even to that; several members who claimed to be IFSB were so extreme that they were shown the door.

But non-IFSB folks are not family in this context, and they are patiently tolerated until they cross the line. I don’t know where that line is, but in my opinion, you have crossed it.


Chev,

I can't say that I agree with Cov. I disagree with him on many things. Much of what he teaches does not have foundation in scriptures, but why fear an open discussion with him? If I am convinced of my beliefs and I am then why should I have any problem in discussing and refuting what someone else has to say?

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Chev,

I can't say that I agree with Cov. I disagree with him on many things. Much of what he teaches does not have foundation in scriptures, but why fear an open discussion with him? If I am convinced of my beliefs and I am then why should I have any problem in discussing and refuting what someone else has to say?



If I wanted to discuss his beliefs, and argue with him on that which he believes and has been proclaiming, I would go to a message board that teaches such stuff. I am not on a Baptist, IFB board, in order to have to defend our beliefs, and be told I am wrong at every turn by someone like him, I'm here to fellowship with other such believers.


I think this man ought to show his respect for us by not coming here telling us we are wrong, that he is in charge of correcting us.


Now, if he wants to leave off his teaching, and learn and discuss what we believer, and STOP telling us we are wrong at every turn, them he is welcome. If someone like him came into our church and started telling us we were wrong, and spewing out the teachings he has here, I would polity ask him to leave,

Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.







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If I wanted to discuss his beliefs, and argue with him on that which he believes and has been proclaiming, I would go to a message board that teaches such stuff. I am not on a Baptist, IFB board, in order to have to defend our beliefs, and be told I am wrong at every turn by someone like him, I'm here to fellowship with other such believers.


I think this man ought to show his respect for us by not coming here telling us we are wrong, that he is in charge of correcting us.


Now, if he wants to leave off his teaching, and learn and discuss what we believer, and STOP telling us we are wrong at every turn, them he is welcome. If someone like him came into our church and started telling us we were wrong, and spewing out the teachings he has here, I would polity ask him to leave,

Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


We (people in general) are ok with "discussing our views with others" until they say something which disagree with those views. I have no problem with someone expressing a difference of opinion with me. Does that mean that I am going to change my mind? Of course not. Perhaps I will even be able to change the other persons thoughts on a point by having an open discussion examining the facts rather than simply closing my mind to everything. I would rather someone show me where I am mistaken (if I am) than to simply be mistaken. I would rather have the oportunity to show someone he is mistaken that to see him lost because we could not sit down and reasonably discuss an issue.

I know that not everyone holds the same view. That's ok.

By the way, Jerry, you say that you don't want him coming here telling you that you are wrong but if you wanted to discuss his issues, you would go to a site which teaches his believes. Does that mean you would go there and tell him that he is wrong?

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