Rapture

[Invicta]

Ian the Man of Sin would be reavealed. If he was somebody who died in AD, he would have been revealed and we would know who he was. There were many claiming to be the messiah before AD 70, includind the Egyptian who paul was accused of being.

The church, from the earliest post apostolic days, told us the Antichrist woud follow the removal of the Emperor and the Empire, 2 Thess 2. Why? because Paul told them. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

From about 1250 AD when the papacy reached its full persecuting powers, the church has recognised it as the Antichrist.

If anyone here does not believe the church has, does, and will pass through tribulation, I would ask "Have you ever read John Foxe's book of martyrs? I am not speaking of the abridged paper back modern editions but the full set. My set was published in 1846 and cosists of eight volumes that take up more than two feet of space on my bookshelf. Since the time of Foxe, there have probably been as many christians again, murdered for their faith. There are still those going through tribulation for their faith, in muslim, hindu, and sme catholic countries. Of course, Rome will not persecute dispensationalists, as they are no threat to her.

[LindaR]

All those things happened in the run-up to AD 70. The Jerusalem Christians escaped when they saw the warning signs. Read the parallel account in Luke.

Luke 21:5-28 is also future.

The "times of the Gentiles" have not been fulfilled. The "times of the Gentiles" will end at the Second Advent of Christ....after the 7 year tribulation (last 3 1/2 years is the "time of Jacob's trouble").

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[Invicta]

Luke 21:5-28 is also future.

The "times of the Gentiles" have not been fulfilled. The "times of the Gentiles" will end at the Second Advent of Christ....after the 7 year tribulation (last 3 1/2 years is the "time of Jacob's trouble").

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the gentiles must have been fulfilled as the Jews have come out from the nations, back to their land.(Or can if they wish.)

[LindaR]

The times of the gentiles must have been fulfilled as the Jews have come out from the nations, back to their land.(Or can if they wish.)

Let me ask you this question: Is the city of Jerusalem still divided? Do the Muslims still have control of part of the Temple mount? The Jews gained partial control of Jerusalem in the Six Day War in 1967, but they are still not in total control....therefore, the times of the Gentiles has not been fulfilled. That will be future..at the Second Advent of Christ. Read Zechariah 12 about the future of Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon right before Jesus Christ returns to this earth:

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zechariah 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Zechariah 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

Zechariah 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[Brother Rick]

Ian the Man of Sin would be reavealed. If he was somebody who died in AD, he would have been revealed and we would know who he was. There were many claiming to be the messiah before AD 70, includind the Egyptian who paul was accused of being.

The church, from the earliest post apostolic days, told us the Antichrist woud follow the removal of the Emperor and the Empire, 2 Thess 2. Why? because Paul told them. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

From about 1250 AD when the papacy reached its full persecuting powers, the church has recognised it as the Antichrist.

If anyone here does not believe the church has, does, and will pass through tribulation, I would ask "Have you ever read John Foxe's book of martyrs? I am not speaking of the abridged paper back modern editions but the full set. My set was published in 1846 and cosists of eight volumes that take up more than two feet of space on my bookshelf. Since the time of Foxe, there have probably been as many christians again, murdered for their faith. There are still those going through tribulation for their faith, in muslim, hindu, and sme catholic countries. Of course, Rome will not persecute dispensationalists, as they are no threat to her.

You know I don't agree with you brother, but I have to admit it makes so much more sense that the tribulation was Roman (pagan and Catholic) persecution than one isolated incident in 70 A.D.

I believe the man of sin was revealed in Paul's day, not exactly how you do, but close. I believe that in Paul's day the man of sin was revealed to be the position of the Roman Emperor, which would eventually morph into the position of the Pope. The Babylon of Revelation is Rome, and the Antichrist is the position of the pope. In this, you and I agree somewhat. I believe there is a future Antichrist that will be the final man of sin, who will also be revealed to be the son of perdition at the middle of the Tribulation when it all hits the fan.

I just got a review on my Revelation book, and the person reviewing it said he was enjoying it until he hit the middle and was ambushed by what I believe about the RCC. Not all dispensationalists are kind to the bloody whore, many of them still call her what she is, especially the dispensationalists that are King James only.

[anime4christ]

Hello. Any reply to my refutation of 1 Thes 4 as a proof text for a pre-trib rapture, seeing as Paul says the resurrection happens prior to the rapture described in that chapter and Paul also says it is at the second coming?

[LindaR]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The apostle Paul does say that the "dead in Christ will rise first" (vs. 16). This is the resurrection of the "dead in Christ". Look at the next verse..."then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM. The resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and the rapture (catching up) are instantaneous, not separated by a time period....they happen together "in the twinkling of an eye".

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The "trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52 and the "trump of God" in 1 Thess. 4:16 are the very same trump.

The rapture does not occur at the Second Coming. The rapture is for church age believers only. The Second Coming of Christ is at the end of the 7 year tribulation period when Christ will set up His earthly Millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem, where He will reign for 1,000 years.

Edited February 10, 2012 by LindaR

[anime4christ]

So you ate telling me that there will be 3 resurrections? 1 at rapture, 2 after tribulation, and 3 after millennium? Where does the bible say that? John 5:28-29 says there will be one resurrection.

Edited February 10, 2012 by anime4christ

[LindaR]

Way of Life Encyclopedia
RESURRECTION

THE DIFFERENT RESURRECTIONS There will not be one general resurrection. There are at least four different resurrections spoken of in the Bible.

(1) The resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:20). The Old Testament feast of first fruits was a picture of Christ's resurrection as the first fruit of those who sleep in death (Leviticus 23:9-14).

(2) The resurrection of New Testament believers at the Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

(3) The resurrection of Israel and Old Testament saints at the coming of Christ (Daniel 12:1-3, 13; Revelation 20:4-6).

(4) The resurrection of the unsaved dead following the Millennium (Revelation 20:5-15).

The saved shall be raised to eternal glory; the unsaved to eternal punishment and shame (John 5:28-29).

Resurrection: Physical resurrection is the raising of the dead. It involves the body, not the spirit; as the spirit of man continues to have consciousness after death (Luke 16:22-31; 2 Cor. 5:6-8; Philippians 1:21-23)

The word "rapture" comes from a verb which means "to be caught up, to be snatched up, to be taken or carried away suddenly.

You need to re-do your math, anime4christ.

Edited February 10, 2012 by LindaR

[anime4christ]

The Bible is my sole authority, not Way of Life Encyclopedia written by men. Prove to me from the Bible that those are different resurrections (1 Thes 4:16 and John 5:28-29).

Edited February 10, 2012 by anime4christ

[JerryNumbers]

Ian the Man of Sin would be reavealed. If he was somebody who died in AD, he would have been revealed and we would know who he was. There were many claiming to be the messiah before AD 70, includind the Egyptian who paul was accused of being.

The church, from the earliest post apostolic days, told us the Antichrist woud follow the removal of the Emperor and the Empire, 2 Thess 2. Why? because Paul told them. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

From about 1250 AD when the papacy reached its full persecuting powers, the church has recognised it as the Antichrist.

If anyone here does not believe the church has, does, and will pass through tribulation, I would ask "Have you ever read John Foxe's book of martyrs? I am not speaking of the abridged paper back modern editions but the full set. My set was published in 1846 and cosists of eight volumes that take up more than two feet of space on my bookshelf. Since the time of Foxe, there have probably been as many christians again, murdered for their faith. There are still those going through tribulation for their faith, in muslim, hindu, and sme catholic countries. Of course, Rome will not persecute dispensationalists, as they are no threat to her.

NO, I haven't read John Foxe’s books, but I have read the holy Bible completely though numerous times. And the Holy bible only is listed for:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness, that is, this old Black Book is the only book to use for. Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness.

If you use John Foxe’s books for, Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness, your correcting God, & His Word, with a book written by a mere man, that’s not nice.

[HappyChristian]

NO, I haven't read John Foxe’s books, but I have read the holy Bible completely though numerous times. And the Holy bible only is listed for:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness, that is, this old Black Book is the only book to use for. Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness.

If you use John Foxe’s books for, Reproof, for correction, for instructions in righteousness, your correcting God, & His Word, with a book written by a mere man, that’s not nice.

I've got to insert this here. Jerry, Invicta was in no way using Foxe's Book of Martyrs against scripture. Foxe simply recorded the persecutions that many saints went through at the hand of the RCC. And Invicta mentioned it, I believe, to point out that, indeed God's church can go through tribulation...as we all know, true Christianity gets persecuted by the world - sometimes in small ways, sometimes in major ways. Foxe recorded some of the major ways...

[Brother Rick]

So you ate telling me that there will be 3 resurrections? 1 at rapture, 2 after tribulation, and 3 after millennium? Where does the bible say that? John 5:28-29 says there will be one resurrection.

John 5:28-29 was written before Christ's crucifixion, in which many of the bodies of the saints arose. If you count that one, plus at least one more, you have two. How would that fit in according to your theology?

Matthew 27:51-53, "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

[JerryNumbers]

I've got to insert this here. Jerry, Invicta was in no way using Foxe's Book of Martyrs against scripture. Foxe simply recorded the persecutions that many saints went through at the hand of the RCC. And Invicta mentioned it, I believe, to point out that, indeed God's church can go through tribulation...as we all know, true Christianity gets persecuted by the world - sometimes in small ways, sometimes in major ways. Foxe recorded some of the major ways...

Point is, I don't believe Jesus' churches will pass though the tribulations, for the tribulations will take place after Jesus takes them out of this world, & the book he refers to will not change my mind, the book he refers to is not for correction of the Bible.

[HappyChristian]

Point is, I don't believe Jesus' churches will pass though the tribulations, for the tribulations will take place after Jesus takes them out of this world, & the book he refers to will not change my mind, the book he refers to is not for correction of the Bible.

I would agree with you that the church won't pass through the great tribulation...but we do go through tribulation, and Foxe's is simply a record of that. That was my point, and I believe his in reference to the book. Not that he was correcting the Bible.