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May I add, the owner of this site ask that anyone posting on this forum, if they're going to use & post Bible verses, to use only the KJ Bible.

I'm not posting this to anyone person. I post it only because this subject came up under this topic, & some may not be aware of this & they may want to click on to the Regarding the KJB above.

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Your "seven reasons" article is excellent!

There is no "church" mentioned in the entire chapter of Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24-25 is the tribulation and Israel, and the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46).


Thanks!

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^_^ I also use the KJV, the Amplified, the NASB and the ESV


I use all those except the Amplified plus I use the RST (Russian Synodal Translation), but on this forum, we're only allowed to quote the KJV. All posts containing any other version are frowned upon unless you are tearing that version down in your post. While I respect that rule here, I do find "do not quote any other version [unless to show how bad it is]" attitude a little odd. KJV is my favorite and the finest translation ever made, in my opinion. I just find the KJVO rule a little far where discussion of other versions is banned as though there is fear of them.

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Thanks Rick... ^_^ Funny...Swathdiver included KJV as worse than the NKJV


Error on my part. Early post makes clear I support the King James Version.


I just find the KJVO rule a little far where discussion of other versions is banned as though there is fear of them.


Not fear, separation. Those versions are corrupt garbage. That's why they were found in the garbage. Written by heathens who denied the Trinity, the death and resurrection of Christ and a host of other things. Liberals can't seem to stay away from these devilish manuscripts.

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Not fear, separation. Those versions are corrupt garbage. That's why they were found in the garbage. Written by heathens who denied the Trinity, the death and resurrection of Christ and a host of other things. Liberals can't seem to stay away from these devilish manuscripts.


Before I ever read the KJV, I grew up reading the Russian RST, which is based on the same manuscripts as the KJV. After reading the KJV, I instantly liked it far more than the RST. Even though they are both translated from the same manuscripts, the KJV is a much better translation. However, there are a few verses here and there which are translated better in the RST. They are truer to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and make more sense contextually. It is because of this I cannot buy the notion that only one translation is perfect. One may be the best ever made in any language, but it cannot be perfect if some have passages which are better translated. It's like calling red green; it just isn't. It may be a very rich and beautiful red, but it isn't green. I agree with you that the new translations leave a lot of things out that are part of God's word and should not be removed, but I use the other versions because there are some places which are translated well and while it is good to warn of the omissions it still is good to give credit where it's due. I respect the position here on this issue, but I just cannot agree with it because I cannot believe that a translation is perfect having grown up reading the Bible in two languages (Russian being closer to Greek, btw). Even if I wanted to believe it, the evidence I have seen just doesn't let me. That does not mean I endorse tampering with God's word. It's not an either-or situation. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Either way, the KJV does not say "and there shall be a rapture before the seven year tribulation" anywhere. It talks about us being caught up at the resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

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Thanks!

7 reasons for an invented concept & 7 "raptures"??
Nonsense - Scripture teaches "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The moment we use a Scriptural word the whole concept of multiple "raptures" is seen to be fictitious.

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7 reasons for an invented concept & 7 "raptures"??
Nonsense - Scripture teaches "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The moment we use a Scriptural word the whole concept of multiple "raptures" is seen to be fictitious.



Lions and tigers and raptures, oh my! Don't use the word rapture!

What else do you call Enoch? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call Elijah? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call the "we which are alive and remain"? THEY ARE NOT DEAD WHEN THEY GO UP.

I'm so very sorry that the word "rapture" is such an offensive word, please tell me, what word should I use to describe these events THAT ARE NOT resurrections? Nobody is dead in these three scenarios!

I think I'll just go right on calling them what the best soul-winners and preachers of the 20th and 21st century have called them: raptures. Edited by Rick Schworer

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Lions and tigers and raptures, oh my! Don't use the word rapture!

What else do you call Enoch? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call Elijah? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call the "we which are alive and remain"? THEY ARE NOT DEAD WHEN THEY GO UP.

I'm so very sorry that the word "rapture" is such an offensive word, please tell me, what word should I use to describe these events THAT ARE NOT resurrections? Nobody is dead in these three scenarios!

I think I'll just go right on calling them what the best soul-winners and preachers of the 20th and 21st century have called them: raptures.

Sometimes terms becoming sticking points in discussions, such as we've seen with the discussions regarding whether or not there is a "universal church" (some like to say "invisible church") or not. Then we get hung up over the terms and meanings of terms and the actual point gets lost.

That said, I'll be clear here that I have no problem with the terms being used in this thread, whether one uses rapture or resurrection, because so far I've been able to tell by the context what is being referred to.

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Lions and tigers and raptures, oh my! Don't use the word rapture!

What else do you call Enoch? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call Elijah? HE WASN'T DEAD WHEN HE WENT UP.

What else do you call the "we which are alive and remain"? THEY ARE NOT DEAD WHEN THEY GO UP.

I'm so very sorry that the word "rapture" is such an offensive word, please tell me, what word should I use to describe these events THAT ARE NOT resurrections? Nobody is dead in these three scenarios!

I think I'll just go right on calling them what the best soul-winners and preachers of the 20th and 21st century have called them: raptures.


Those that use the word gather, gathering, are proclaiming the same thing as those that use the word rapture. I do not understand their objection.

Unless!

They be of those that have to say things their way, & have to have things their way, while they detest those who would dare state the same thing as they do, yet use different words explaining it.


I would think there's other things of much more importance to use their energy, efforts, on, rather than put down those that say the same thing they do just using different word or words.

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The reason we don't use the word rapture to label the event is because the bible already has a name for the event: the resurrection. Sure, those who are still alive will be caught up along with those who are resurrected at that same event, but it already has a name. The reason dispensationalists use the word rapture to label the event is because they believe it is a separate event from the biblical resurrection+rapture because it happens 7 years prior to the resurrection. When we deny a rapture, what we are denying is this particular theory where 7 years prior to the resurrection there is a separate rapture. For this reason we like to use the scriptural word resurrection in order to highlight that.

Edited by anime4christ

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The reason we don't use the word rapture to label the event is because the bible already has a name for the event: the resurrection. Sure, those who are still alive will be caught up along with those who are resurrected at that same event, but it already has a name. The reason dispensationalists use the word rapture to label the event is because they believe it is a separate event from the biblical resurrection+rapture because it happens 7 years prior to the resurrection. When we deny a rapture, what we are denying is this particular theory where 7 years prior to the resurrection there is a separate rapture. For this reason we like to use the scriptural word resurrection in order to highlight that.



Wouldn't want to be found guilty of rightly dividing in seeing a difference between a rapture and a resurrection!

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For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You do have to be dead to be resurrected right (I'm asking)? So, can I use "translated" for those who will be "caught up" alive to distinguish the living from the dead?

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Enoch was translated, so you can use that word. I cannot understand why you object to using scripture words and have to invent one. I prefer to use the words in the scriptures. Enoch was translated, Elijah was caught in a whirlwind.

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You guys are splitting hairs, there's nothing wrong with calling the act of someone being caught up to heaven a “rapture.” It's the commonly accepted term and people know what you're talking about. If I start yammering on about a pre-Tribulation translation no one is going to have any idea what I'm talking about. I understand that the scriptural term for the future catching up alive saints (not resurrected) is actually "the blessed hope." That term is fine to use for the future rapture, but you can't apply it to Enoch and Elijah.

Anyways, the term rapture is a commonly used and accepted term that describes a catching up to Heaven of an alive saint. Just because it is not in the Bible, like the word Trinity isn't, doesn't mean we have to get all hair lipped about it. You guys don’t like the word “dispensation” and it is in the Bible, and so is the idea that there are different ages in which God deals with different people different ways.

There are clear cut raptures and dispensations in the Bible and they are undeniable. If that threatens your theology, then reexamine your theology.

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You do have to be dead to be resurrected right (I'm asking)? So, can I use "translated" for those who will be "caught up" alive to distinguish the living from the dead?


The point isn't translation vs catching up vs rapture. The point is that it is the same event as the resurrection. I believe in a rapture at the second coming and the resurrection if you want to call it that. It's just not a separate event is what my point is.

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You guys are splitting hairs, there's nothing wrong with calling the act of someone being caught up to heaven a “rapture.” It's the commonly accepted term and people know what you're talking about. If I start yammering on about a pre-Tribulation translation no one is going to have any idea what I'm talking about. I understand that the scriptural term for the future catching up alive saints (not resurrected) is actually "the blessed hope." That term is fine to use for the future rapture, but you can't apply it to Enoch and Elijah.

Anyways, the term rapture is a commonly used and accepted term that describes a catching up to Heaven of an alive saint. Just because it is not in the Bible, like the word Trinity isn't, doesn't mean we have to get all hair lipped about it. You guys don’t like the word “dispensation” and it is in the Bible, and so is the idea that there are different ages in which God deals with different people different ways.

There are clear cut raptures and dispensations in the Bible and they are undeniable. If that threatens your theology, then reexamine your theology.


Just trying to make a point...I think its made. There is a difference between dead and alive. We know that a dead body is resurrected; and we use the term rapture for the living. There is no pre-trib resurrection of the living.

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The objection is that "rapture" is not merely a word used for translation of mortal believers to immortality, but it is a highly questionable concept that is incompatible with Scriptural teaching about our Lord's return for resurrection & judgment.

There is no place in Scripture where normal mortal life continues on earth after Jesus' return.

See 2 Peter 3, 2 Thes. 1. I know Scofield & his followers rely on 1 Thes. 4, but in my Bible 1 Thes. 5 follows 1 Thes. 4.

1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write u
nt
o you.

2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall n
ot
escape.

4
But ye, brethren, are n
ot
in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are n
ot
of the night, nor of darkness.

6
Therefore let us n
ot
sleep, as do
ot
hers; but let us watch and be s
ob
er.


We must be those who live out out Lord's injunction in Mat. 24 - 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would n
ot
have suffered his house to be broken up.

44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think n
ot
the Son of man cometh.


When the Son of man cometh there is only fiery judgment for the wicked - who are translated to suffer the resurrection of damnation.

The whole rapture/tribulation scenario is unsound - invented by men on the fringe of the Christian faith & taken up by the faithful because of the free issue of Scofield bibles to students of the colleges who took it as a trustworthy study Bible. I don't think even his advocate Rick would acknowledge Ephraem the Syrian as a faithful IFB.

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These are Rick's 7 reasons - refuted

1. Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

That verse needs no explanation.
So, a promise to the first C church in Philadelphia is not to those to whom it was made but to all the living Christians when Jesus returns. I am happy to take it as a general promise to all believers - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches – but it doesn't teach a rapture.

2.
I Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

The only wrath that is "to come" is the Tribulation. The entire Tribulation period is God's wrath, with the first half consisting of world wars, earthquakes, famines, and diseases.
The wrath to come we are delivered from is hell. Sorry if you think “the only wrath to come is the tribulation.” There is also an AD 70 wrath that fell on the Jews.
14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own cou
nt
rymen, even as they have of the Jews:

ototnt
16Forbidding us to speak to the Ge
nt
iles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The Thessalonians were suffering tribulation (1T2:14) & their persecutors would suffer the tribulation of hell.


6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

. . .

otobot
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

nt


3.
Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

Our job is to look for the blessed hope, not for the antichrist's arrival on the world's stage.
Of course we look forward to the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; rather than antichrist. THE antichrist perished in AD 70, & now we watch out for the many antichrists, & watch & pray.

4. , "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Church Age Christians can't lose their salvation. No such promise is made to Tribulation saints, it is wishful thinking to assume that no Christian in the Tribulation will take the mark to feed himself or his family. These two dispensations can not overlap if you believe in eternal security.
Can ANY Christians lose their salvation? Is God unfaithful to “tribulation saints” suffering extreme tribulation? Surely not!

5. "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Ephrem the Syrian,On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, 373 A.D.

The pre-Tribulation rapture teaching did NOT begin in the 1800s, as is taught by those who oppose it.
Have you a link to that? I had a look at the Catholic Encyclopaedia, & I don't think Ephraim was a card-carrying IFB. In any case a non-Biblical reference isn't valid – though of course you need non-Biblical evidence for non-Biblical teaching.

6. , "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

It's Jacob's trouble, not the church's. The church is saved from the Tribulation, and Israel is saved out of it. The major reason for the Tribulation is to draw Israel back to God, to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, so that all of the Messianic promises can be fulfilled.
Jer. 30 refers to the events of the Babylonian captivity & the aftermath. An obvious understanding is recorded in Esther, when Haman sought to wipe out the Jews. “Jacob's trouble” was averted, & that deliverance is celebrated to this day as the feast of Purim. Other details in the passage look further forward.

7. , , "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.... And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

The bride is already up in Heaven before Christ comes down at the end of the Tribulation, and she's already "made herself ready." She's already gone through the refining process of the Judgment Seat of Christ. The church is already up there well before the end comes.
Most of the redeemed are in glory by the time Christ returns, & all are ready, in fact believers on earth are reckoned righteous – fully justified. When Christ comes to raise the dead & glorify the living saints, we will all be ready. The wicked dead will be raised to their final humiliation in hell.

The key passage to prove that the church is taken out at the end of the Tribulation is Matthew 24:29-31. In the Matthew passage you have Christ in the sky, visable to all, and then He calls these people up in what clealy is a post-Tribulation rapture. However, here in Revelation 19 the bride is already up in Heaven before Christ comes down to Earth to be seen by anyone? So how are these two passages resolved?
Post tribulation – but which tribulation? We need extra verses:
Mat. 24 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall n
ot
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the
ot
her.


33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

ntot
Note that there will be lots of signs – to “this generation.” there certainly were – the Jerusalem Christians saw them 3½ years before AD 70 & fled the city to escape the destruction. Don't claim “the fig tree” is the nation of Israel. In Luke Jesus says: 29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; . . .

Posted by <a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11227859829777486664">Rick Schworer & refuted by Ian Day (Covenanter)

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