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Thank you!

I would firstly like to make the point that salvation is not dependent on whether someone believes or does not believe in the Church being "Raptured."
So, as good and faithful bereans, let us search through the word thoroughly, beginning with these verses.

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Setting the scene:
1a. The Lord descends from heaven 1b with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God. [16]
2. The dead shall rise first [16]
3. Those who are alive and remain [still on earth] shall be caught up together with those who were asleep, in the clouds. [17]
4. To meet the Lord in the air.[17]

verse 17 speaks of getting caught up together with them in the clouds. This indicates that these believers are still alive and are on earth
note: they are on earth...

Let's now look at other scriptures found in the bible that speak of this particular scene: "1a. Lord descending from heaven" and "1b. shout, voice of an Archangel, trumpet of God" and "3. clouds".

Matthew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the [1a]Son of man coming [3]in the clouds of heaven with[1b]power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the [1a]Son of man coming [3]in the clouds [1b]with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

now let us look at the timing of this event...

Matthew 24

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


This verse speaks of the great tribulation that is about to come upon the earth and those days shortened because of God's elect.

]29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This verse speaks of the aftermath - after the tribulation

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


This verse speaks of the Lord appearing in the clouds with great power and glory. This is also repeated in the book of Mark.

Mark 13
19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The trumpet of God is then sounded and the elect of God are gathered from the four winds.Mark says "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

Lastly, theses verses speak of the gathering of God's elect which happens after all the events above...

Matthew 24
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
7And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So let's look again at verse 17 which speaks of getting caught up together with them in the clouds, indicating that these believers are still alive and are on earth.

We do not know when this event will occur on earth and the likelihood of any of us still being alive during this cataclysmic event is very slim.

However if we are still alive. The bible clearly states that the Lord will come after the tribulation to gather his elect and not before or in the middle of it as the scriptures above clearly indicate...


Blessings!!! Edited by Gabrielle A

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I haven't seen any posts where that glorious truth is denied. What is rejected as not proved from Scripture is a 7-year tribulation following that rapture/resurrection.

When there is no distinction made between the Church and Israel, you will never see the Scripture which proves there is a 7 year tribulation period following the Rapture/resurrection of Church age believers.

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Hi Gabrielle,

It's refreshing that you actually believe in the rapture. It's getting tiresome just trying to get people to believe that there's actually a tribulation period let alone a rapture, regardless of when the rapture happens.

Here's seven reasons why I believe that the rapture of the church is pre-trib.

http://ricksarticles.blogspot.com/2010/05/six-reasons-why-church-is-raptured.html

The Matthew 24 passage speaks of a post-trib rapture, and there is one, but it is not the only rapture, and it is not for the church.

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Hi Rick!
If you read my post again dear brother, you will find that I do not believe that there is a rapture but rather a gathering of God's elect [if they are still alive] after the great tribulation. ...I cannot see any rapture supported in Matthew 24 as pre trib, since those verses speak of God gathering his elect after the great tribulation. With the greatest respect I would ask that you read it again...[my apologies dear brother]

Shalom and blessings!!!

Edited by Gabrielle A

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I can't see a pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24 either, that was part of the point I was making.

I'm trying to follow you: do you believe in a post-Tribulation rapture or not? You use the word gathering, is this gathering to be done in the clouds as is commonly taught, or is it something else? Please clarify.

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Here's seven reasons why I believe that the rapture of the church is pre-trib.

http://ricksarticles...s-raptured.html

The Matthew 24 passage speaks of a post-trib rapture, and there is one, but it is not the only rapture, and it is not for the church.

Your "seven reasons" article is excellent!

There is no "church" mentioned in the entire chapter of Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24-25 is the tribulation and Israel, and the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46).

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These verses do not indicate that there is a rapture at all. The word "caught up" 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which Christians have associated with "Rapture - catching away", differs from the terms used in Matthew and Mark. "Gathered" I believe that 1 Thessalonians is the same event but the word "harpazo" does not match up with the rest of the similar verses. I will check up on this using the Septuagint [LXX] if it is in there...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
G726 harpazō - caught up together
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Matthew 24:31
G1996 episunagō - they shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

Mark 13:27
G1996 episunagō- shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).


Blessings!!!

Edited by Gabrielle A

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1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The English word “rapture” comes from the Latin raptus, meaning “seized” or “carried away.”

Strong's Greek Dictionary
726. harpazo
harpazo har-pad'-zo

from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Way of Life Encyclopedia
RAPTURE

The term commonly used for the catching away of the saints described in 1Th 4:13-18. This Rapture is (1) a resurrection of the dead in Christ (v. 14-16), (2) a catching up and translation of the living N.T. saints (v. 17). The term "caught up" in 1Th 4:17 is also translated "pluck" (Joh 10:28), "pulling [out of the fire]" (Jude 1:23), and "take by force" (Ac 23:10). It refers to a forceful seizing and a snatching away. It is used of the devil snatching the word of God from the heart of the foolish (Mt 13:19) and of the Spirit of God snatching away Philip after the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch (Ac 8:39). This is exactly what Christ will do to the N.T. believers before the onslaught of the Great Tribulation. This event is also described in 1Co 15:51-58. Here we see that the translation of the N.T. saints will involve an instantaneous change from morality to immortality. Those believers living at that hour will never see death (v. 51).
7


There you go, correcting the KJV again.

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These verses do not indicate that there is a rapture at all. The word "caught up" 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which Christians have associated with "Rapture - catching away", differs from the terms used in Matthew and Mark. "Gathered" I believe that 1 Thessalonians is the same event but the word "harpazo" does not match up with the rest of the similar verses. I will check up on this using the Septuagint [LXX] if it is in there...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
G726 harpazō - caught up together
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Matthew 24:31
G1996 episunagō - they shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

Mark 13:27
G1996 episunagō- shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).


Blessings!!!



A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here. Edited by Rick Schworer

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1 Thess. 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 are not the same event.

1 Thess. 4:17 is the rapture/resurrection of the church age believers before the 7 year tribulation. The tribulation is not for the church, it's focus is on Israel and the Christ rejecting world. The Church age believers will not see God's wrath.

Matthew 24:31 is the Second Advent/Coming of Christ

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A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here.

Are you speaking to me? I only use the KJV....I don't "correct" the KJV as Invicta implies.

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Same answer applies to both.

Same answer applies to both of what? I didn't correct (and never have corrected) the KJV. By saying that the English word rapture comes from the Latin word raptus isn't "correcting" the KJV. I never said the word "rapture" was in the KJV either...the KJV uses the term "caught up" (harpazo, in the Greek) and has the same meaning as the Latin word raptus. Edited by LindaR

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A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here.


Thanks for the heads up!

I thought I was using the KJV? :huh: I will be more careful in future...if I have not... ^_^

I definitely believe that 1 Thess 4:15-17 is the same event as Matthew 24:30-31 and Mark 13:26-27....

PS: I normally use the NKJV...

Bless ya! Edited by Gabrielle A

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Thank you!

I would firstly like to make the point that salvation is not dependent on whether someone believes or does not believe in the Church being "Raptured."


Blessings!!!


And who stated ones salvation depended on that?

Would you mind telling us of what faith you are, what church you attend?

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Same answer applies to both of what? I didn't correct (and never have corrected) the KJV. By saying that the English word rapture comes from the Latin word raptus isn't "correcting" the KJV. I never said the word "rapture" was in the KJV either...the KJV uses the term "caught up" (harpazo, in the Greek) and has the same meaning as the Latin word raptus.




Amen!

Many confuse the two, & that causes them more trouble than anything, plus after someone has taught them that, its nearly impossible to who they their error.

Below is a portion of one of my sermons on this matter

Jesus’ & His 2 Comings
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Introduction:
1. Jesus’ second coming is in two phases, we all get a bit confused about this at times-
A. At first Jesus comes back for His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-57-
B. Later on Jesus comes back with His own to take His rightful place on David’s throne, Isaiah 9:7 page 721-
C. The first phase of His coming is commonly called “The Rapture of the Church”-
1. While the 2nd phase is commonly called the “Revelations”-

The verses we just read is speaking about when Jesus’ comes in the air for his own, we commonly refer to as the rapture-
We could also read about it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, page 1227-

2. While reading thru the Bible there seems to be some contradictions, that can only be understood if one understands the 2 phases of Jesus’ coming-

For instance, Revelations 16:15 reads:
“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepth his garments, least he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Them in Revelations 1:7 we find:
“Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him and all kindards shall wail because of Him, Even so, Amen.”

A. Revelations 16:15 “Behold I come as a thief: 1st Phase: Jesus’ comes for His own-

B. Revelations 1:7 “every eye shall see Him: 2nd phase, Jesus comes with His own-

Another seemingly contradiction is
1 Thessalonians 3:13
“To this end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.“
&
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He firs comes for His saints-
{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints}

{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}
{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}
In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}

{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}
{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}

{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}
{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}
{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}

In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}
{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}

3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28
“So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

A. Notice it say, “unto them that look”-
1. Believers will see Christ-
2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

4. When are the tribulations?
A. Thru the book of revelations it does not give a time for the ‘rapture of the church’ so most people think this, the rapture take place right before the tribulations-

B. In Revelations 1:19 Jesus tells John to write: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”

1. ‘…the things which I hast seen…’ refers to the vision he saw in Revelations 1

2. ‘…the things which are…’ seem to be a reference to Revelations 2&3, which many believe to mean the church age. When the church age is finished Christ will take the church out of the world-

3. ‘…the thing which shall be hereafter…’, after the church age which he spoke of in Revelations 2&3-

5. But in Revelations 4:1 the heaven open up.
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must happen hereafter.”

A. The heavens opens, the church goes up, the Rapture, the things that must happen hereafter, the tribulations-

B. Now from this time Revelations 4:1 thru Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned in the tribulations period, but in Revelations 19:11 the church comes back with Christ-

Let us look at something else.
Revelations 3:10 “Because I have kept thy word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

A. The word temptation means: adversity, affliction, trouble, which most people seem to think refers to the ‘Tribulation Period’-

Now let us look at Thessalonians 2:1
“Now we beech you brother, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,”

‘by our gathering unto Him…’ is referring to the rapture of the church-

And verse 2 continues:
“That ye not soon be shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.”

That day of Christ, is connected with judgment-
By letter, there had been a false letter sent to Thessalonica with Paul’s signature on it telling them they were already in the period of God’s judgment, the Tribulation period-
Paul assures them this will not come till after the rapture-

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And who stated ones salvation depended on that?
Would you mind telling us of what faith you are, what church you attend?


Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here.

My Church attendance has nothing to do with the OP and yes, I do mind and I don't take kindly to forum bullying... :huh:

I believe that 1Thessalonians 4 is the same event found in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. I am just searching that information out at the moment...back soon... ^_^ Edited by Gabrielle A

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OSAS - Once saved always saved? But that's not a theory, that's a Scriptural fact based on God's promises. ;) I don't think any of the IFB's here would believe in the UR doctrine.

Remember, we're not an online church here, so we don't necessarily believe the same thing! ;)

For me, I don't have time to do a big study here, but I believe in a pre-trib rapture because I consider the tribulation period to be the time of God's wrath, and as believers, God hath no appointed us unto wrath. That being said, I won't throw away my confidence if I happen to be wrong. :)

Edited by salyan

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Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here.

My Church attendance has nothing to do with the OP and yes, I do mind and I don't take kindly to forum bullies... :huh:

I believe that 1Thessalonians 4 is the same event found in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. I am just searching that information out at the moment...back soon... ^_^


Offensive? Did I not ask, "Would you mind telling?"

OK, I take it that your ashamed of your faith & the church you attend.

Plus I am offender by you posting this to me, "Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here."

PS. If I had thought at the time I would have placed a please before the would. Plus, I am treating you like others, I have asked others this same very question.

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PS: I normally use the NKJV...


Ma'am don't you know that the New King James is a corrupt translation? All the changes and "improvements" supposedly made from the King James come from the text of Wescott and Hort, two Christ-denying socialists.

Nearly all liberals and apostates use bibles based on this error-laden text which changes the Word of God making it the word of man and therefore useless.

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^_^ I also use the KJV, the Amplified, the NASB and the ESV

Bless ya and I'm still in search mode...


Hi Salyan!
I like what anime4christ said in post #47

Most of us here believe in some form of "OSAS", but some believe you can be saved, fall away and live like the world, die in that way, and still be saved because you were saved back then. Others of us believe such a person most likely never was truly saved because salvation is accompanied by fruit. On the pretrib rapture, a lot here believe it, but a good number of us don't because it is not taught in the bible. Those who believe it is must admit that even in their theory it is implicitly taught. Hence this thread.


Blessings!!! Edited by Gabrielle A

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