Rapture

[Covenanter]

The bottomline is that if the church will goes the great tribulation then there is no such thing as eternal security because anyone who takes the mark of the beast will burn in hell.
That is the extraordinary disp logic ever. Scripture teaches eternal security.
And please don't tell me that a "true" Christian wouldn't take the mark. I know of tons of "true" Christians who can't drive by a Burger King without succumbing to the temptation.
I presume the ""s are intended to cast doubt on the genuineness of your friends.

The bottom line is, Jesus' Church, & His brothers & sister will not go though the tribulations, yet they will be people saved during that time. There will be false professors of faith that will take the mark of the beast.
Which Bible do you read? My AV has a lot to say abut Christians suffering tribulation, while Rev. begins with John encouraging his "companion(s) in tribulation." That does not mean believers suffered what Jesus called THE great tribulation.

Just because someone claims to be Christian, does not mean they truly are, in fact the majority of people that claim Jesus as Savior, are lost, & will spend eternity in the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death.
There, sadly, I do agree.

[Invicta]

The bottom line is, Jesus' Church, & His brothers & sister will not go though the tribulations, yet they will be people saved during that time. There will be false professors of faith that will take the mark of the beast.

Just because someone claims to be Christian, does not mean they truly are, in fact the majority of people that claim Jesus as Savior, are lost, & will spend eternity in the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death.

The church has always passed through tribulation, as Jesus and Paul prophecied.

[JerryNumbers]

John,

I can find the two witnesses Rev 11:7-14 and the 144,000 sealed Jews Rev 14:1-5 and the dead saints from the first half of the tribulation Rev 15:1-5 redeemed from the earth at the middle of the seven year tribulation but I don't see where any living saints are redeemed at the middle tribulation.

Revelation 14:6–13 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the com- mandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,

Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:

Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This tells us there will be living saints who will go into the great tribulation. Many will die. Those are the blessed ones that can rest.

I would say that even the 1st half of the tribulations will be greater tribulations than ever seen by mankind, of course even the last half known as the great tribulations will even be worse.

[Eric Stahl]

I would say that even the 1st half of the tribulations will be greater tribulations than ever seen by mankind, of course even the last half known as the great tribulations will even be worse.

I agree.

[Wilchbla]

Revelation 14:9–13 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
146 �� AMERICA’S LAST WARNING
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

After the two witnesses, the 144,000 thousand Jewish missionaries, and the martyred tribulation saints are redeemed bodily from the earth at the middle of the tribulation period, God will send an angel with one last loud warning that every person on earth will hear and understand. The angel tells humankind to repent and worship the true Creator, God.
The third angel warns humankind, “If you take the mark of the Antichrist and worship him, you will burn in the lake of fire forever. You will not die, but suffer forever and ever” (Revelation 14:9–11 KJV). Verses twelve and thirteen, however, say that the believers who die in the last half of the tribulation will have the blessing of no more suffering.

No true saint will take the mark of the beast.

And yet Paul, before his conversion, was able to get believers to blaspheme. Go figure.

There is nothing in that passage that says a true believer wouldn't take the mark. In fact, the author of Hebrews warns against drawing back unto perdition.

[Wilchbla]

It would be impossible for a true Christian to take the mark because a true Christian already has the mark (seal) of the Holy Ghost upon them.

It's also possible for one to have great difficulty giving up their morning donut and high-calorie coffee blend but be resolute to stand for Christ when pressed to deny Him.

In any event, the Great Tribulation is only the last 3 1/2 years of what is called the 7 year tribulation, so a mid-trib rapture would remove Christians from that.

Also, it should be noted that Christians in various times and places have faced severe persecution and yet stood firm for Christ. Consider the untold numbers of Christians who suffered burning at the stake, boiling in oil, being attacked and eaten alive by lions, suffering great torture on the rack, having fingernails ripped out, tongues cut off, being disemboweled, watching their families torutered and killed, etc. Through all of this, true Christians stood firm for Christ. There is no reason to believe God's true people could not stand firm even if they were in the Great Tribulation.

It should also be remembered that many Christians may face severe trials, tribulations and persecutions in our own lifetimes. In fact, some Christians around the world already are...beatings, torture, rape, murder, execution...all for their faith in Christ, and it's possible even in this country such could happen. The time to prepare is now. If we wait until faced with such we are much more likely to stumble.

It will be impossible for a Christian to take the mark but then again, all the Christians will be raptured from the earth before the tribulation. Now unless you teach a split rapture or that the church will go through the tribulation you would have to admit that we aren't dealing with Christians (in the sense of the church) during the tribulation. The only folks mentioned to be sealed during this time are the 144,000 and they are all Jews. Nobody else is said to sealed but rather have to endure to the end to be saved. Edited March 16, 2012 by Wilchbla

[Eric Stahl]

And yet Paul, before his conversion, was able to get believers to blaspheme. Go figure.

There is nothing in that passage that says a true believer wouldn't take the mark. In fact, the author of Hebrews warns against drawing back unto perdition.

All true believers will go to heaven and all who take the mark of the antichrist will go to hell. Therefore no believers will take the mark.

[Wilchbla]

All true believers will go to heaven and all who take the mark of the antichrist will go to hell. Therefore no believers will take the mark.

You don't have any scripture to back this position only presumption.

A believer no can't not go to hell no matter what including denial of his Lord and Savior but AFTER the rapture things will be different. There will be no eternal security during the great tribulation. A saint will have to endure at this time until the Lord's coming when it is said that Jesus will arrive "without sin unto salvation". The verses are to numerous to post. If this is not true then another position is that the church will go through the tribulation and not only can a believer lose his salvation now but he can lose it during the tribulation. Or there is a third position which is that the bible is full of contradictions. And then again I could just wrest all the scriptures and make them say what I want them to say to support my position.

Here's a sample passage of a saint who didn't edure until the Lord's return and got tossed into hell.

Matt. 24

[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now there are four ways you can go with this passage.

1) You can say that the servent wasn't really saved (when it is clear in the passage that the Lord is speaking of a "saved" man as he is addressing the disciples) and force the passage to fit your theology.

2) You can say that a believer can lose his salvation today and the church will go through the tribulation.

3) You can say that the passage is a mistake and not true to the "originals". (This is the lazy way out).

4) Or you can say that the passage takes place during the tribulation and that a man can lose his salvation if he doesn't endure to the end seeing that the church has already been rapture and this man is NOT part of the church (i.e. the bride of Christ).

That's the choices. If a man can lose his salvation during the tribulation then he can take the mark.

John 6:66- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

There is one more thought on that passage in Matt. that has just sprung up recently which some Baptist preachers are teaching. It's that a carnal Christian will be tossed into the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years along with the beast and false prophet as a kind of Baptist purgatory. To me that position is the craziest one of them all. Edited March 17, 2012 by Wilchbla

[JerryNumbers]

John 6:66- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

These disciples were not saved. so your point is mute, plus, God keep us saved, we don't keep our self saved, if it was left up to us to keep our self saved, we would fail, but be assured, God will not fail.


Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

So no, anyone that has ever been saved, will not be lost.

[Covenanter]

I find Wilchbla's reasoning extraordinary. I agree with Jerry & Eric:

So no, anyone that has ever been saved, will not be lost.

The thread is about the supposed rapture, but is Jesus' Olivet discourse about the rapture? He begins by giving the believers warnings about the persecution, & the coming destruction. Those warnings led the Jerusalem Christians to flee the city3 1/2 years before the destruction. He then continues (vs 35 on) about the end of heaven & earth, & how his servants should live, not knowing the time of his return. His warning is to all of to serve him faithfully & wisely.

Should we think of the evil servant as a true believer? Obviously not. There's no mark of the beast in the passage - it's just an evil servant & sadly there are many of those in the church today. Evil servants are never true believers. We are inadequate servants, doing less than our duty, stumbling as we walk in his way, but evil? Never!

[Covenanter]

Rapture theory coupled with 6,000 years & signs of the end have been with us all my Christian life, especially in view of the renewed state of Israel. It is a massive diversion from a right understanding of Scripture & the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The teaching leads to a focus on Israel, rather than on Jesus Christ, on preparations for Armageddon, rather than furthering the Gospel of peace, & indifference to the state of the earth with regard to climate & food & water supply. "Why should Christians worry about the state of the earth? We will be raptured soon, & given a grandstand view of the tribulation."

The whole disp theory is monstrous - antichristian. The way "Christian" nations wage wars is evidence of their antichristian thinking. They are back to the RC crusades (as Bush inadvertently made clear.) No wonder the Muslim nations repudiate everything Christian, & see indigenous Christians as enemy agents.

O God, may we look at your people, wherever they are, suffering for your Name's sake. Help us to show the love of Christ to our persecuted brothers & sisters, AND to the persecutors, that they, like Saul, may see they are fighting against God & so become brothers & sisters of those they persecuted.

1

Let br

ot

herly love co

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inue.

2

Be n

ot

forgetful to e

nt

ertain strangers: for thereby some have e

nt

ertained angels unawares.

3

Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.