Members anime4christ Posted February 27, 2012 Members Share Posted February 27, 2012 My point is that the resurrection precedes the "rapture". The last day will see the resurrection of the unjust as well; they won't be the ones meeting the Lord in the air like those in Christ, of course. I'm not arguing that the ungodly will be "raptured" along with those in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted February 27, 2012 Members Share Posted February 27, 2012 What dead are raised in verse 16? The verse answers this, The dead IN CHRIST. Not all the dead but the dead in Christ. The saved. Then verse seventeen says we which are alive. Does this refer to all living? No, as it says we will be ever with the Lord. The lost are not included in this verse. It specifies that very clear. We need to remember that 1 Thes. 5 follows 1 Thes. 4. & that Paul did not divide his letters into chapters. The KJV translators kept to the existing chapters & verses, so we should read the whole letter. Paul refers to the second coming in every chapter, with a different emphasis. The passage in 1T4 is specifically to comfort the bereaved, who were concerned about their loved ones:I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Paul explains that they sleep in Jesus - are with him - and will come with him at his return:at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. At that coming:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Wonderful comfort for the bereaved, for a wonderful meeting with the glorified Christ & resurrected saints, & of course we will all have resurrection bodies, as Paul explains in 1 Cor. 15. We read on & see that Paul is still writing about that day - the day of the Lord which all of us will see, whether we are ready or not - awake or asleep.But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. Our resurrection/rapture is the event we are living & watching for (I trust) as we watch & pray according to our Lord's command. The ungodly (spiritually asleep) will find that day to be sudden destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted February 27, 2012 Members Share Posted February 27, 2012 Is it right to call ones differening view of the end times heresy? That term gets tossed around a lot and much of the time it's used out of context. Just wondering. The first century Christians wrote many things, much of which contradicts one another. Many, if not most, modern Baptists of the more conservative and IFB varieties, most often dismiss their writings. That wasn't the case with earlier generations of Baptists who did refer to their writings. It's amazing how quickly the world, the flesh and the devil corrupted Christianity. Sometimes we marvel at some of the beliefs held by some of the church fathers, or whatever they are often called, but when we read from Acts on in Scripture we can see the battle for the soundness of various local churches being played out. I'm currently studying, once again, books on the pre-mil/pre-trib rapture and someone is supposed to be sending me a book which they say explains their view and belief in a pre-mil/mid-trib rapture. Along with this, I'm also studying Ezekiel 38 & 39 (which I started a thread about), as well as a book on Spurgeon. Yes, it is, for those who say the tribulations have already taken place, for there will be tribulation like never before seen on this earth when Jesus take His own, His Church, the Holy Spirit, out of this world. Why, for it is totally wrong. I will be a bit kinder to those that say the rapture will come mid-tribulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted February 27, 2012 Members Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yes, it is, for those who say the tribulations have already taken place, for there will be tribulation like never before seen on this earth when Jesus take His own, His Church, the Holy Spirit, out of this world. Why, for it is totally wrong. I will be a bit kinder to those that say the rapture will come mid-tribulations. Well, the Jesuits call me a heretic, so I do not worry about their students who also call me a heretic, becuase I do not agree with their interpretation. What you have to remember, what you believe is only and interpretation, not scripture doctrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted February 27, 2012 Members Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hairy tick or fuzzy louse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2012 Wouldn't we all be much better off actually living as the Lord commands rather than arguing, fighting and working against one another over such matters? Christians are called to be the salt and light, to spread the Gospel, make disciples and pursue holiness all in the expectation that Jesus will return, or we will be called home. Would we rather Christ find us arguing over the various aspects of prophecy rather than doing as He commanded? Many (absolutely not saying everyone here!) become over-focused upon prophetic matters to the neglect of the core of what Christ has called us to. I'm not saying we should all have a group hug or not have a viewpoint on such matters, but in many instances concentration upon prophetic matters leads many astray. (Again, speaking in general, not to anyone here on OB) Myself, I've known several over the years who have become obsessed with prophetic matters. Whatever viewpoint they come to, they hold to like pit bulls and spend most all their spare time reading and studying that viewpoint. For the most part it seems there are very few who are actually interested in comparing and contrasting the differing viewpoints with the goal of deciding which, if any, actually fit Scripture. Most are bound in chains to their viewpoint and no amount of back and forth discussion or debate will change that. Again, not saying none of this is important, but we need to keep perspective. I typically take time each year to read something in this area and often do a study of such at least once a year. There is an older man at our church who reads and studies nothing but eschatology all year, every year; from the viewpoint he holds, of course. I've been in some Bible studies with him and while I like the man, it's difficult to study Scripture with him because he tries to turn virtually every aspect of any study into an eschatological discussion. Anyway, carry on, I just felt like talking. :icon_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric Stahl Posted February 28, 2012 Members Share Posted February 28, 2012 Revelation19:10b the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Covenanter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted February 28, 2012 Members Share Posted February 28, 2012 Wouldn't we all be much better off actually living as the Lord commands rather than arguing, fighting and working against one another over such matters? Yes, if only truth was proclaimed, remember. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. The Scriptures are given for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction. Although there's somethings that we can agree to disagree on. I would give an example, yet if I did that would create another rabbit train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 6, 2012 Is anyone familiar with Dr. David Jeremiah? After reading one of his books dealing with the end times, I'd have to say he lays out about the best testimony and evidence for the pre-trib/pre-mil position I've come across yet. He also has some sermons on this which follow the same approach. Does what Dr. Jeremiah puts forth go along with what most who hold to pre-trib/pre-mil believe or is there something different about his views? After reading and listenting to his take on this, I'm left wondering why others have not took such a clear and seemingly pretty sound biblical approach to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted March 6, 2012 Members Share Posted March 6, 2012 Yes, if only truth was proclaimed, remember. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. The Scriptures are given for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction. Although there's somethings that we can agree to disagree on. I would give an example, yet if I did that would create another rabbit train. Brother Jerry. The problem is that some people on here believe that their interpretation of prophecy is scripture doctrine, when it is only an interpretation, or perhaps I should call it an understanding. In our church, we have a secretary who is ex Brethren so is probably a dispensationalist. We have a deacon who came from a charismatic fellowship via the Brethren, so is probably likewise. We have number of ex Anglicans, and I have no idea what they believe on the matter. We have some baptists who may be amill after the Hendiksen teaching but I don't know. The last pastor we had was a Grace Baptist who believed the latter, but I don't know that he understood it and was unable to explain it. We are at present looking for a pastor and will be looking at one who can preach the word and call siiners to repentance, not teach their views on latter times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 6, 2012 Is anyone familiar with Dr. David Jeremiah? After reading one of his books dealing with the end times, I'd have to say he lays out about the best testimony and evidence for the pre-trib/pre-mil position I've come across yet. He also has some sermons on this which follow the same approach. Does what Dr. Jeremiah puts forth go along with what most who hold to pre-trib/pre-mil believe or is there something different about his views? After reading and listenting to his take on this, I'm left wondering why others have not took such a clear and seemingly pretty sound biblical approach to this. So, is no one familiar Dr. David Jeremiah and his teaching on pre-trib/pre-mil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2012 Where are all the pre-trib/pre-mil folks when they are asked a simple question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted March 7, 2012 Members Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Where are all the pre-trib/pre-mil folks when they are asked a simple question? Are you just talking about whether or not we know of this book or is it something else? I used to love listening to Dr. Jeremiah on the radio. What book are you talking about? I'd like to check it out. I haven't heard of it before. Edited March 7, 2012 by Rick Schworer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2012 Are you just talking about whether or not we know of this book or is it something else? I used to love listening to Dr. Jeremiah on the radio. What book are you talking about? I'd like to check it out. I haven't heard of it before. "Escape the Coming Night" is the main book I'm referring to, though I read couple others too. I think he still has some of this on his website and he's currently doing kind of an overview of the end times on the radio right now. What I'm wondering is whether the pre-trib/pre-mil folks here agree with what Dr. Jeremiah says about how he views the end times from his pre-trib/pre-mil perspective. And thank you for replying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted March 7, 2012 Members Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'll have to check it out. Just another reason for me to get a Kindle!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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