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Enoch was translated, so you can use that word. I cannot understand why you object to using scripture words and have to invent one. I prefer to use the words in the scriptures. Enoch was translated, Elijah was caught in a whirlwind.

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You guys are splitting hairs, there's nothing wrong with calling the act of someone being caught up to heaven a “rapture.” It's the commonly accepted term and people know what you're talking about. If I start yammering on about a pre-Tribulation translation no one is going to have any idea what I'm talking about. I understand that the scriptural term for the future catching up alive saints (not resurrected) is actually "the blessed hope." That term is fine to use for the future rapture, but you can't apply it to Enoch and Elijah.

Anyways, the term rapture is a commonly used and accepted term that describes a catching up to Heaven of an alive saint. Just because it is not in the Bible, like the word Trinity isn't, doesn't mean we have to get all hair lipped about it. You guys don’t like the word “dispensation” and it is in the Bible, and so is the idea that there are different ages in which God deals with different people different ways.

There are clear cut raptures and dispensations in the Bible and they are undeniable. If that threatens your theology, then reexamine your theology.

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You do have to be dead to be resurrected right (I'm asking)? So, can I use "translated" for those who will be "caught up" alive to distinguish the living from the dead?


The point isn't translation vs catching up vs rapture. The point is that it is the same event as the resurrection. I believe in a rapture at the second coming and the resurrection if you want to call it that. It's just not a separate event is what my point is.
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You guys are splitting hairs, there's nothing wrong with calling the act of someone being caught up to heaven a “rapture.” It's the commonly accepted term and people know what you're talking about. If I start yammering on about a pre-Tribulation translation no one is going to have any idea what I'm talking about. I understand that the scriptural term for the future catching up alive saints (not resurrected) is actually "the blessed hope." That term is fine to use for the future rapture, but you can't apply it to Enoch and Elijah.

Anyways, the term rapture is a commonly used and accepted term that describes a catching up to Heaven of an alive saint. Just because it is not in the Bible, like the word Trinity isn't, doesn't mean we have to get all hair lipped about it. You guys don’t like the word “dispensation” and it is in the Bible, and so is the idea that there are different ages in which God deals with different people different ways.

There are clear cut raptures and dispensations in the Bible and they are undeniable. If that threatens your theology, then reexamine your theology.


Just trying to make a point...I think its made. There is a difference between dead and alive. We know that a dead body is resurrected; and we use the term rapture for the living. There is no pre-trib resurrection of the living.
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The objection is that "rapture" is not merely a word used for translation of mortal believers to immortality, but it is a highly questionable concept that is incompatible with Scriptural teaching about our Lord's return for resurrection & judgment.

There is no place in Scripture where normal mortal life continues on earth after Jesus' return.

See 2 Peter 3, 2 Thes. 1. I know Scofield & his followers rely on 1 Thes. 4, but in my Bible 1 Thes. 5 follows 1 Thes. 4.

1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write u
nt
o you.

2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall n
ot
escape.

4
But ye, brethren, are n
ot
in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are n
ot
of the night, nor of darkness.

6
Therefore let us n
ot
sleep, as do
ot
hers; but let us watch and be s
ob
er.


We must be those who live out out Lord's injunction in Mat. 24 - 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would n
ot
have suffered his house to be broken up.

44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think n
ot
the Son of man cometh.


When the Son of man cometh there is only fiery judgment for the wicked - who are translated to suffer the resurrection of damnation.

The whole rapture/tribulation scenario is unsound - invented by men on the fringe of the Christian faith & taken up by the faithful because of the free issue of Scofield bibles to students of the colleges who took it as a trustworthy study Bible. I don't think even his advocate Rick would acknowledge Ephraem the Syrian as a faithful IFB.
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These are Rick's 7 reasons - refuted

1. Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

That verse needs no explanation.
So, a promise to the first C church in Philadelphia is not to those to whom it was made but to all the living Christians when Jesus returns. I am happy to take it as a general promise to all believers - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches – but it doesn't teach a rapture.

2.
I Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

The only wrath that is "to come" is the Tribulation. The entire Tribulation period is God's wrath, with the first half consisting of world wars, earthquakes, famines, and diseases.
The wrath to come we are delivered from is hell. Sorry if you think “the only wrath to come is the tribulation.” There is also an AD 70 wrath that fell on the Jews.
14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own cou
nt
rymen, even as they have of the Jews:

ototnt
16Forbidding us to speak to the Ge
nt
iles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The Thessalonians were suffering tribulation (1T2:14) & their persecutors would suffer the tribulation of hell.


6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

. . .

otobot
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

nt


3.
Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

Our job is to look for the blessed hope, not for the antichrist's arrival on the world's stage.
Of course we look forward to the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; rather than antichrist. THE antichrist perished in AD 70, & now we watch out for the many antichrists, & watch & pray.

4. , "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Church Age Christians can't lose their salvation. No such promise is made to Tribulation saints, it is wishful thinking to assume that no Christian in the Tribulation will take the mark to feed himself or his family. These two dispensations can not overlap if you believe in eternal security.
Can ANY Christians lose their salvation? Is God unfaithful to “tribulation saints” suffering extreme tribulation? Surely not!

5. "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Ephrem the Syrian,On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, 373 A.D.

The pre-Tribulation rapture teaching did NOT begin in the 1800s, as is taught by those who oppose it.
Have you a link to that? I had a look at the Catholic Encyclopaedia, & I don't think Ephraim was a card-carrying IFB. In any case a non-Biblical reference isn't valid – though of course you need non-Biblical evidence for non-Biblical teaching.

6. , "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

It's Jacob's trouble, not the church's. The church is saved from the Tribulation, and Israel is saved out of it. The major reason for the Tribulation is to draw Israel back to God, to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, so that all of the Messianic promises can be fulfilled.
Jer. 30 refers to the events of the Babylonian captivity & the aftermath. An obvious understanding is recorded in Esther, when Haman sought to wipe out the Jews. “Jacob's trouble” was averted, & that deliverance is celebrated to this day as the feast of Purim. Other details in the passage look further forward.

7. , , "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.... And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

The bride is already up in Heaven before Christ comes down at the end of the Tribulation, and she's already "made herself ready." She's already gone through the refining process of the Judgment Seat of Christ. The church is already up there well before the end comes.
Most of the redeemed are in glory by the time Christ returns, & all are ready, in fact believers on earth are reckoned righteous – fully justified. When Christ comes to raise the dead & glorify the living saints, we will all be ready. The wicked dead will be raised to their final humiliation in hell.

The key passage to prove that the church is taken out at the end of the Tribulation is Matthew 24:29-31. In the Matthew passage you have Christ in the sky, visable to all, and then He calls these people up in what clealy is a post-Tribulation rapture. However, here in Revelation 19 the bride is already up in Heaven before Christ comes down to Earth to be seen by anyone? So how are these two passages resolved?
Post tribulation – but which tribulation? We need extra verses:
Mat. 24 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall n
ot
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the
ot
her.


33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

ntot
Note that there will be lots of signs – to “this generation.” there certainly were – the Jerusalem Christians saw them 3½ years before AD 70 & fled the city to escape the destruction. Don't claim “the fig tree” is the nation of Israel. In Luke Jesus says: 29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; . . .

Posted by <a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11227859829777486664">Rick Schworer & refuted by Ian Day (Covenanter)
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I agree with Rick's 7 reasons and he is right on with this one:

6. Jer. 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

It's Jacob's trouble, not the church's. The church is saved from the Tribulation, and Israel is saved out of it. The major reason for the Tribulation is to draw Israel back to God, to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, so that all of the Messianic promises can be fulfilled.


The "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) is recorded right here, (Matthew 24:14-22; Daniel 9:27), not in the book of Esther! Matthew 24:14-22 corresponds to Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has NOT happened yet...this is still future. The rapture is for the church age saints only, not for Israel. Unless one makes a distinction between the church and Israel, one will never be able to "rightly divide" the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). The allegorization of Scripture blurs those distinctions and interpreting prophecies becomes rather confusing, to say the least. Israel is Israel and the church is the church. Edited by LindaR
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Oh noes! I must give up now and become a Preterist!

Clearly you cannot respond to Scripture, quoted in its contextual meaning.

***Rick falls over while trying to read the Bible standing on his head***

Nope! I guess I just can't do it!

Try sitting down, with it open in front of you, using your open eyes but without your disp blinders. I have shown that all your "reasons" do not stand up to Scriptural examination.

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I agree with Rick's 7 reasons and he is right on with this one:


The "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) is recorded right here, (Matthew 24:14-22; Daniel 9:27), not in the book of Esther! Matthew 24:14-22 corresponds to Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has NOT happened yet...this is still future. The rapture is for the church age saints only, not for Israel. Unless one makes a distinction between the church and Israel, one will never be able to "rightly divide" the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). The allegorization of Scripture blurs those distinctions and interpreting prophecies becomes rather confusing, to say the least. Israel is Israel and the church is the church.

All those things happened in the run-up to AD 70. The Jerusalem Christians escaped when they saw the warning signs. Read the parallel account in Luke. Edited by Covenanter
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I'll be studying this in the near future but right now I have Jesus Christ's pre-passion ministry to study.

I can't help but say this argument over the word rapture is a waste of time. Words men use to describe the actions of the Lord, are just men's words. Even our vocabulary falls far short of describing God's wonder and work. Take the word "physics" for example. It's a term used by man to describe the laws God applied to the universe. We don't even understand many of the laws of physics. I'm certain God overlooks this flaw in man because I'm certain there is much more to these laws than the word physics implies. However, until Christ tells me the true name for physics I'll be using physics as a heading for gravity (which keeps me earthbound until the Lord causes me to "come up hither").

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Oh noes! I must give up now and become a Preterist!

Clearly you cannot respond to Scripture, quoted in its contextual meaning.


I've scripturally blown your stuff out of the water plenty of times already, it gets tiresome after awhile! I'm not interested in a theological war of attrition. If you want to claim victory because you've bored me to tears then have at it. People who want the truth can find it - it's out there and not hard to find.


***Rick falls over while trying to read the Bible standing on his head***

Nope! I guess I just can't do it!


Try sitting down, with it open in front of you, using your open eyes but without your disp blinders. I have shown that all your "reasons" do not stand up to Scriptural examination.


The reasons are based upon the premise that you actually believe in a future Tribulation period. If a post- or mid- Tribber (someone who doesn't read the Bible upside down) cares to challenge the reasons then I'm open to discuss them.
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