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I think that everything is a theory until it becomes a reality, then it is no-longer a theory...

UR is Universal Reconciliation. - All human life will be able to reconcile back to God even those who have gone into hell. Their time in hell will give them an opportunity to repent and be reconciled to God. There is no "Lake of Fire" no=one burns. Even the Fallen one's have a chance of being restored back to God...[supposedly]

Is the "Rapture" also part of the Independent Baptist belief?

Blessings!


I doubt anyone on this board believes in universal reconciliation. Most of us here believe in some form of "OSAS", but some believe you can be saved, fall away and live like the world, die in that way, and still be saved because you were saved back then. Others of us believe such a person most likely never was truly saved because salvation is accompanied by fruit. On the pretrib rapture, a lot here believe it, but a good number of us don't because it is not taught in the bible. Those who believe it is must admit that even in their theory it is implicitly taught. Hence this thread.
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Hi Rick!

Some people still think the Trinity and the eternal diety of Christ is a theory too.

Well it is, when you think about it...many Christians base their understanding on the word but not everyone comes to the same conclusion otherwise we would not have the "oneness doctrine." [those who believe that God the Father came down to earth as God the Son, died and rose again. Then came back as God, the Holy Spirit] Bless you!

Hi anime4christ!

some believe you can be saved, fall away and live like the world, die in that way, and still be saved because you were saved back then. Others of us believe such a person most likely never was truly saved because salvation is accompanied by fruit. On the pretrib rapture, a lot here believe it, but a good number of us don't because it is not taught in the bible.


This is what I have understood also... :) there has been a lot of confusion caused by doctrines/theories that have not been tested or measured up against the word of God by believers, just accepted. My hope is that believers read the word for themselves and God will show his truth through the revelation of his Spirit that dwells in us.

Blessings!!! Edited by Gabrielle A
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Theroy is something that cannot be proven, the rapture of the saints when Jesus comes in the air.


1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

At that time those who are in Christ, & having died shall be resurrected, them we who are alive shall be caught up & so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The reason some comes to a different understanding is not that the truth is not in the pages of the Bible, but its because some refuse to accept the truth of the Scriptures, & even others let that old Devil hide God's truths from them. I feel some of both types are present,

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At that time those who are in Christ, & having died shall be resurrected, them we who are alive shall be caught up & so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I haven't seen any posts where that glorious truth is denied. What is rejected as not proved from Scripture is a 7-year tribulation following that rapture/resurrection.
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Thank you!

I would firstly like to make the point that salvation is not dependent on whether someone believes or does not believe in the Church being "Raptured."
So, as good and faithful bereans, let us search through the word thoroughly, beginning with these verses.

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Setting the scene:
1a. The Lord descends from heaven 1b with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God. [16]
2. The dead shall rise first [16]
3. Those who are alive and remain [still on earth] shall be caught up together with those who were asleep, in the clouds. [17]
4. To meet the Lord in the air.[17]

verse 17 speaks of getting caught up together with them in the clouds. This indicates that these believers are still alive and are on earth
note: they are on earth...

Let's now look at other scriptures found in the bible that speak of this particular scene: "1a. Lord descending from heaven" and "1b. shout, voice of an Archangel, trumpet of God" and "3. clouds".

Matthew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the [1a]Son of man coming [3]in the clouds of heaven with[1b]power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the [1a]Son of man coming [3]in the clouds [1b]with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

now let us look at the timing of this event...

Matthew 24

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


This verse speaks of the great tribulation that is about to come upon the earth and those days shortened because of God's elect.

]29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This verse speaks of the aftermath - after the tribulation

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


This verse speaks of the Lord appearing in the clouds with great power and glory. This is also repeated in the book of Mark.

Mark 13
19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The trumpet of God is then sounded and the elect of God are gathered from the four winds.Mark says "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

Lastly, theses verses speak of the gathering of God's elect which happens after all the events above...

Matthew 24
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
7And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So let's look again at verse 17 which speaks of getting caught up together with them in the clouds, indicating that these believers are still alive and are on earth.

We do not know when this event will occur on earth and the likelihood of any of us still being alive during this cataclysmic event is very slim.

However if we are still alive. The bible clearly states that the Lord will come after the tribulation to gather his elect and not before or in the middle of it as the scriptures above clearly indicate...


Blessings!!! Edited by Gabrielle A
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I haven't seen any posts where that glorious truth is denied. What is rejected as not proved from Scripture is a 7-year tribulation following that rapture/resurrection.

When there is no distinction made between the Church and Israel, you will never see the Scripture which proves there is a 7 year tribulation period following the Rapture/resurrection of Church age believers.
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Hi Gabrielle,

It's refreshing that you actually believe in the rapture. It's getting tiresome just trying to get people to believe that there's actually a tribulation period let alone a rapture, regardless of when the rapture happens.

Here's seven reasons why I believe that the rapture of the church is pre-trib.

http://ricksarticles.blogspot.com/2010/05/six-reasons-why-church-is-raptured.html

The Matthew 24 passage speaks of a post-trib rapture, and there is one, but it is not the only rapture, and it is not for the church.

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Hi Rick!
If you read my post again dear brother, you will find that I do not believe that there is a rapture but rather a gathering of God's elect [if they are still alive] after the great tribulation. ...I cannot see any rapture supported in Matthew 24 as pre trib, since those verses speak of God gathering his elect after the great tribulation. With the greatest respect I would ask that you read it again...[my apologies dear brother]

Shalom and blessings!!!

Edited by Gabrielle A
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I can't see a pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24 either, that was part of the point I was making.

I'm trying to follow you: do you believe in a post-Tribulation rapture or not? You use the word gathering, is this gathering to be done in the clouds as is commonly taught, or is it something else? Please clarify.

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Here's seven reasons why I believe that the rapture of the church is pre-trib.

http://ricksarticles...s-raptured.html

The Matthew 24 passage speaks of a post-trib rapture, and there is one, but it is not the only rapture, and it is not for the church.

Your "seven reasons" article is excellent!

There is no "church" mentioned in the entire chapter of Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24-25 is the tribulation and Israel, and the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46).
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These verses do not indicate that there is a rapture at all. The word "caught up" 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which Christians have associated with "Rapture - catching away", differs from the terms used in Matthew and Mark. "Gathered" I believe that 1 Thessalonians is the same event but the word "harpazo" does not match up with the rest of the similar verses. I will check up on this using the Septuagint [LXX] if it is in there...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
G726 harpazō - caught up together
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Matthew 24:31
G1996 episunagō - they shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

Mark 13:27
G1996 episunagō- shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).


Blessings!!!

Edited by Gabrielle A
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1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The English word “rapture” comes from the Latin raptus, meaning “seized” or “carried away.”

Strong's Greek Dictionary
726. harpazo
harpazo har-pad'-zo

from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Way of Life Encyclopedia
RAPTURE

The term commonly used for the catching away of the saints described in 1Th 4:13-18. This Rapture is (1) a resurrection of the dead in Christ (v. 14-16), (2) a catching up and translation of the living N.T. saints (v. 17). The term "caught up" in 1Th 4:17 is also translated "pluck" (Joh 10:28), "pulling [out of the fire]" (Jude 1:23), and "take by force" (Ac 23:10). It refers to a forceful seizing and a snatching away. It is used of the devil snatching the word of God from the heart of the foolish (Mt 13:19) and of the Spirit of God snatching away Philip after the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch (Ac 8:39). This is exactly what Christ will do to the N.T. believers before the onslaught of the Great Tribulation. This event is also described in 1Co 15:51-58. Here we see that the translation of the N.T. saints will involve an instantaneous change from morality to immortality. Those believers living at that hour will never see death (v. 51).
7


There you go, correcting the KJV again.
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These verses do not indicate that there is a rapture at all. The word "caught up" 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which Christians have associated with "Rapture - catching away", differs from the terms used in Matthew and Mark. "Gathered" I believe that 1 Thessalonians is the same event but the word "harpazo" does not match up with the rest of the similar verses. I will check up on this using the Septuagint [LXX] if it is in there...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
G726 harpazō - caught up together
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Matthew 24:31
G1996 episunagō - they shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

Mark 13:27
G1996 episunagō- shall gather together
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).


Blessings!!!



A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here. Edited by Rick Schworer
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1 Thess. 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 are not the same event.

1 Thess. 4:17 is the rapture/resurrection of the church age believers before the 7 year tribulation. The tribulation is not for the church, it's focus is on Israel and the Christ rejecting world. The Church age believers will not see God's wrath.

Matthew 24:31 is the Second Advent/Coming of Christ

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