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These questions stem from some other threads but I would like to concentrate upon this aspect here.

Will there be no Rapture, one Rapture, two Raptures, three Raptures or more? There seems to be several views of this, some I've heard before, some I don't think I have.

Along with how many Raptures there will be, please explain when you believe one or more may take place, or why you think there will be none. Also, who will be Raptured when?

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The concept of the rapture appears to be a recent invention. Scripture support is from the resurrection texts. (1 Thes. 4)

If we start with Jesus' teaching we find 2 resurrections in John 5.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The first resurrection is conversion - salvation - when we become spiritually alive, & have eternal life.

The second resurrection takes place at an hour when ALL come forth, for the resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation.

No millennium, no rapture/tribulation scenario. When Jesus returns it's resurrection to life or damnation.

In his kingdom parables we see the same. e.g. the wheat/tares.

Mat. 13:40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

In this case, the tares are gathered first, so comparing John with Matthew, there can be NO significant time interval between the resurrection of the righteous & the wicked.

It's the same in 1 Thes, 2 Thes. 1, & 2 Peter.

2 Thes. 1: 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Occam's razor applies - keep it simple. Scripture does not require a complex disp interpretation. No "interpretation" is necessary. Accept what the Lord & his Apostles say.

Edited by Covenanter

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1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There will be a rapture, a time when all of God's children will be taken off this earth, it will happen right before the tribulations, at that time the Holy Spirit will be taken off of this world, and the Wicked One will be revealed.It is the 1st resurrection.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

There is more than one stage for the rapture of the saved people, I spoke of only the 1st portion of it. That will also be the 1st resurrection.

When that takes place all unsaved people will be left on this earth, all that have died lost will stay in their graves, and they will not be resurrected until right come to the end, right before the 'Great White Throne Judgment.'

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So the Bible can truly say, 'Blessed are they who have a part in the 1st resurrection, the rapture, why blessed? They will not go through the tribulations, 1st 3&1/2 years nor the great tribulation last 3&1/2 years, they will be with the Lord during that time.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Some read theses verses as well as others, and get confused, thinking both resurrections take place at the same time, they do not, which is clear form verses such as Revelation 20:6.

Some ever deny the rapture becasue that word in not in the Bible. Yet that word describes what will take place at the 1st resurrection.

Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In that day there will be households where the wife will be taken, the lost husband left behind. If could well be that a large plane is flying though the sky, the pilot is saved, the co-pilot is lost, the pilot is taken, the co-pilot is left behind. Of course that is what the above verses is referring to.

I forget just what verse in the New Testament, some were calming that the resurrection, rapture, had already take place. It has not, but it could take pace at any moment. There is nothing that has to take place for the rapture to happen, the rapture is imminent, could happen any day, even today, or tomorrow, or maybe Sunday morning as our church services starts.

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1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There will be a rapture, a time when all of God's children will be taken off this earth, it will happen right before the tribulations, at that time the Holy Spirit will be taken off of this world, and the Wicked One will be revealed.It is the 1st resurrection.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

There is more than one stage for the rapture of the saved people, I spoke of only the 1st portion of it. That will also be the 1st resurrection.

When that takes place all unsaved people will be left on this earth, all that have died lost will stay in their graves, and they will not be resurrected until right come to the end, right before the 'Great White Throne Judgment.'

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So the Bible can truly say, 'Blessed are they who have a part in the 1st resurrection, the rapture, why blessed? They will not go through the tribulations, 1st 3&1/2 years nor the great tribulation last 3&1/2 years, they will be with the Lord during that time.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Some read theses verses as well as others, and get confused, thinking both resurrections take place at the same time, they do not, which is clear form verses such as Revelation 20:6.

Some ever deny the rapture becasue that word in not in the Bible. Yet that word describes what will take place at the 1st resurrection.

Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In that day there will be households where the wife will be taken, the lost husband left behind. If could well be that a large plane is flying though the sky, the pilot is saved, the co-pilot is lost, the pilot is taken, the co-pilot is left behind. Of course that is what the above verses is referring to.

I forget just what verse in the New Testament, some were calming that the resurrection, rapture, had already take place. It has not, but it could take pace at any moment. There is nothing that has to take place for the rapture to happen, the rapture is imminent, could happen any day, even today, or tomorrow, or maybe Sunday morning as our church services starts.


An interesting and novel theory, but how do you square that with the words of the Lord himself?

The saints will be raised on the last day.


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


But the judgment will also be on the last day

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It seems you have adopted man made theories. Edited by Invicta

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Yes, and Jesus will, the rapture will be the last day of having Jesus' Churches and for the Holy Spirit abiding as it now does. At that moment the church age will come to an end. Those left behind will face a time of suffering like never before has been seen on this earth. And he will not allow His brothers and sisters to go though it, He has promised to take them out before it begins.


Just prior to the ending of this world the resurrection of the unsaved will take place. Picture this.

Re 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus setting on the Great White Throne, before him is all the unsaved waiting to be judged, earth and the heaven fled away from him, over the shoulders of the lost they may get a glimpse of the earth, it holds everything they lived for, it holds all of their treasures, but its destroyed.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus finds no place for them, they are them judged according to their works them cast into the lake of fire.

Those with Christ shall them live that abundant life in heaven with God and His Son Jesus, which will never have and ending.

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These questions stem from some other threads but I would like to concentrate upon this aspect here.

Will there be no Rapture, one Rapture, two Raptures, three Raptures or more? There seems to be several views of this, some I've heard before, some I don't think I have.

Along with how many Raptures there will be, please explain when you believe one or more may take place, or why you think there will be none. Also, who will be Raptured when?


There will be a rapture of the church before the tribulation and a rapture of the tribulation saints before the Second Coming. The 144,000 possibly will be taken out at the half way of the point of the Tribulation along with the two witnesses after they are killed. If you lump it all together (the Jew, Gentile and church of God) being raptured out at the end of the tribulatin then you fall into all kinds of doctrinal contradictions especially in soteriology.

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There will be a rapture of the church before the tribulation and a rapture of the tribulation saints before the Second Coming. The 144,000 possibly will be taken out at the half way of the point of the Tribulation along with the two witnesses after they are killed. If you lump it all together (the Jew, Gentile and church of God) being raptured out at the end of the tribulatin then you fall into all kinds of doctrinal contradictions especially in soteriology.

Could you post the verses which go with each of these so I can look into it more closely?

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There is no Rapture in Scripture, not in the sense of what is commonly referred to today. For, the Rapture and the Second Coming are one event. There are two resurrections - one at the beginning of the thousand year reign, of the killed Tribulation saints, and then one at the end of the thousand years, of all other believers.

(Revelation 20:1-6 KJV) - "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, {3} And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. {4} And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Hence...

1. Seven-year Tribulation period.
2. Christ returns, defeats the enemies who were coming against Jerusalem (see Revelation 19).
3. Rapture of all living saints, resurrection of all killed throughout the Tribulation (remember: only two resurrections! One at end of the Tribulation/beginning of the Millenium, one at the end of the Millenium! Hence...one Rapture, at the return, as a resurrection in 1 Thessalonians [what is...4:16-17?] is present).
4. Millenium, period of peace, Christ rules on earth.
5. Satan gathers Gog and Magog, some of his buddies (Ezekiel 38), and attacks Jerusalem.
6. They are utterly consumed, satan is cast into the lake of fire, new heavens and new earth.

See the rest of Revelation, and Revelation 19.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

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But if there is no rapture of the saints before the tribulation, which is the Day of God's Wrath, then we'd be living through that wrath. And the Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath...?

Is that speaking to tribulation wrath or the ultimate wrath of God in casting all who rejected Christ into hell/lake of fire?

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Is that speaking to tribulation wrath or the ultimate wrath of God in casting all who rejected Christ into hell/lake of fire?


My answer is Tribulation wrath, if all the saved living at that time when the tribulations start, has to face the tribulation wrath, that is not a blessed hope, But of course they will not face it, Christ has not appointed the saved to wrath.

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My answer is Tribulation wrath, if all the saved living at that time when the tribulations start, has to face the tribulation wrath, that is not a blessed hope, But of course they will not face it, Christ has not appointed the saved to wrath.

Please give Scripture to support that teaching. Edited by Covenanter

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But if there is no rapture of the saints before the tribulation, which is the Day of God's Wrath, then we'd be living through that wrath. And the Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath...?


There is, I agree, no way that believers will suffer the wrath of God. However, Jesus warned us, 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16)

1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Wrath is final punishment of the wicked. There is no way believers will suffer wrath - tribulation - yes; wrath - never.

Believers suffer tribulation at the hands of the wicked. The wicked suffer wrath-tribulation in hell.

2 Thes. 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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Is that speaking to tribulation wrath or the ultimate wrath of God in casting all who rejected Christ into hell/lake of fire?

Precisely. The wrath poured out during the Tribulation will be nothing, and I do mean nothing, compared to the holy wrath that shall be poured out on God's enemies during all of eternity, in Hell. Nothing, no, nothing at all. Let us look at the context.

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 KJV) - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. {2} For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. {5} Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. {6} Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. {7} For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. {8} But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. {9} For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {10} Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. {11} Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

There is simply no evidence to support a Pre or Mid-Trib Rapture. As, if this is the first resurrection (and it is), well...

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV) - "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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No, the tribulations, 1st 3 & 1/2 years, and the great tribulations, the 2nd 3 & 1/2 years, will not be the same as the lake of fire, yet during that day our Lord will pour His wrath out upon this earth, and it will not be a walk through the park for them on earth during those days. A sample of what will be taking place.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Re 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Re 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Re 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Re 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Re 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Re 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


And again, keep in mind, this is during the tribulations, this is not part of the eternal punishment for the unsaved.

Edited by Jerry80871852

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I'm trying to sort out rapture teaching.

If I understand correctly - AD 70 was included in Jesus' Olivet prophecy, but it was primarily concerned with a yet future tribulation, so that NO prophecy relates to the Gospel age of grace we are living in - that is a parenthesis resulting from the Jews rejecting their Messiah. Therefore NO prophetic Scripture is relevant to us - it's all for what happens on earth after the rapture.

The rapture of believers, & the first resurrection, takes place either before the 7 year tribulation, or 3½ year into it, or at the end. In the preferred scenario, raptured believers have a "grandstand view" of the tribulation on earth. Revelation 4 onwards describes the tribulation, the millennium & the NH&NE, & has no relevance to living believers during the Gospel age.

Armageddon takes place at the end of the tribulation, while the Gog/Magog rebellion takes place after Satan is released after the millennium.

The rapture is not the second coming, the second coming takes place at the end of the tribulation when Jesus begins a millennial reign on earth, over a mixed population of the 1/3 surviving & converted Jews & whoever else survives the tribulation. Resurrected believers will be back on earth reigning with Jesus, who will live in Jerusalem.

During the millennium, people will still be mortal & will have children, & will die at a great age. Increasingly that mortal population will comprised unsaved sinners who will be ready to rebel against Jesus & resurrected saints on earth as soon as Satan reappears from the bottomless pit. The rebellion will be cut short by fire from heaven.

The final judgment takes place including those who have died during the millennium.

The NH&NE is brought into being.

=============
The problem with that is that it is a composite of many Scriptures, both OT & NT, but is not explicitly taught in Scripture.
=============

My understanding is that Jesus ascended to his heavenly throne at his ascension;
that the Apostolic age ended with the prophesied AD 70 tribulation & destruction, after which there was no geographical earthly focus for the Kingdom of God. (John 4) Jesus then took his power & reigned over all the earth from heaven. (Rev. 11:15) Clearly he is King over all the earth, but while Jerusalem stood, there was a focus for the Kingdom of God on earth.

Satan was bound at the cross & the millennial reign of Jesus & believing souls in heaven (who have enjoyed the first (spiritual) resurrection of souls, aka conversion (John 5:24) & anticipate the bodily resurrection at Jesus second coming. (John 5:28-9) 1,000 years denotes a long but indeterminate time. Peter comments on that. ( 2Pet. 3) We are living through the millennium. Believers, having attained the first spiritual resurrection by faith in Christ, suffer & die during the millennium. (Rev. 20:4.)

Wickedness will increase towards the end, with the release of Satan, but the second coming cuts short the resultant tribulation of believers inflicted by the wicked. (2 Thes. 1)

Then the NH&NE come into being.

Edited by Covenanter

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Often we speak of Jesus' next coming as the 2nd coming, yet at that time He will only come in the air, never setting foot on this earth, and at that time the rapture will take place.

At the start of the millennial will be when He next sets foot on this earth, Them His thousand year reign will begin.

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The OIivet Discourse is Jesus answering more than one question from His disciples. The first portion of the Discourse deals with that which was to occur in 70 A.D. while the second portion deals primarily with things that will happen at an unknown future date.

From the descriptions of things that will occur in the future, it seems to clearly indicate that happening will be obvious and so open that all will know it's occuring. The things mentioned have not yet occured, and they didn't occur in 70 A.D., so they are yet future. While the event will catch most (all?) by surprise, it will be a very open event that no one will miss seeing.

That's my general understanding of the Olivet Discourse.

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I heard a idea that the "rapture" will happen when the seventh angel sounds. It seems plausible at the moment; though I'm not decided about it yet. As I don't really understand how it would work out with the rest of the scriptures. :icon_confused:Some verses which seem to support it below. Then some verses which don't seem to support it.

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



One of the verses that doesn't seem to support the idea is.

(Rev 20:4 [KJV])
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [i saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev 20:5 [KJV])
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

(Rev 20:6 [KJV])
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited by Nathaniel

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The OIivet Discourse is Jesus answering more than one question from His disciples. The first portion of the Discourse deals with that which was to occur in 70 A.D. while the second portion deals primarily with things that will happen at an unknown future date.

From the descriptions of things that will occur in the future, it seems to clearly indicate that happening will be obvious and so open that all will know it's occuring. The things mentioned have not yet occured, and they didn't occur in 70 A.D., so they are yet future. While the event will catch most (all?) by surprise, it will be a very open event that no one will miss seeing.

That's my general understanding of the Olivet Discourse.

That I agree with. The primary prophecy of the destruction of the Temple & Jerusalem is referred to by Paul in Thessalonians, around AD 50.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In AD 50 the temple of God was standing, but would be totally destroyed by the Lord before the generation that rejected their Messiah died out.

There was an active church in Jerusalem, led by James, & preaching the Law & the Prophets. (e.g. Acts 21:20) That church would be removed when the Jerusalem believers saw the Olivet signs.

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We know that the signs Jesus gave in his Olivet prophecy were clear to the Jerusalem Christians, who fled the city 3½ years before the destruction. In that whole prophecy he gives warnings to all of us down the ages, to be living as expecting to give account when he comes for resurrection & judgement.

Some disps see the temple prophecies, also in 2 Thes 2 & Rev. 11 as referring to a rebuilt temple for the "tribulation period" but the is NO specific NT prophecy of a rebuilt temple, nor could there be a valid temple like Ezekiel's, as animal sacrifices are offered.

The prophecies must therefore refer to the existing temple, at the time of the prophecies.

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Looking at Scripture through a "filter" was suggested on another thread, with the implication that we can selected e.g "dispensationalism," or "covenant theology" or some other external hermeneutic to interpret Scripture. I do not like that concept. We need to see what the Scriptures say, particular how Jesus & the Apostles used the OT, to establish Scripture understanding before we interpret.

Throughout Thessalonians, Paul is prophesying specific details of the coming of the Lord Jesus.

He seems to know nothing of a 7-year tribulation, nor of a millennium where resurrected believers live on earth with King Jesus, saved Jews & tribulation survivors. Those interpretations should be understood in the light of specific teaching.

He does teach a present tribulation of believers at the hands of the wicked, & a final tribulation of the wicked at the hands of God, when Jesus returns to vindicate his saints. (2 The 1) Before that "rapture" the temple, together with the man of sin must be destroyed.

Paul therefore teaches that Christ cannot come before the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy. That was the great unfulfilled prophecy of Jesus, when Jesus himself would be vindicated as his words come true in dreadful detail. Since then Christians must live as faithful believers, expecting at some unknown time to give account to the Lord they serve.

The cataclysmic event of recent days should not be seen as indicators that Jesus really is coming in our present generation. Rather they should be seen as signs that the world is presently living under the judgment of God, who will bring the Gospel age of grace to an end at some unknown moment, without further warning.

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Looking at Scripture through a "filter" was suggested on another thread, with the implication that we can selected e.g "dispensationalism," or "covenant theology" or some other external hermeneutic to interpret Scripture. I do not like that concept. We need to see what the Scriptures say, particular how Jesus & the Apostles used the OT, to establish Scripture understanding before we interpret.

Throughout Thessalonians, Paul is prophesying specific details of the coming of the Lord Jesus.

He seems to know nothing of a 7-year tribulation, nor of a millennium where resurrected believers live on earth with King Jesus, saved Jews & tribulation survivors. Those interpretations should be understood in the light of specific teaching.

He does teach a present tribulation of believers at the hands of the wicked, & a final tribulation of the wicked at the hands of God, when Jesus returns to vindicate his saints. (2 The 1) Before that "rapture" the temple, together with the man of sin must be destroyed.

Paul therefore teaches that Christ cannot come before the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy. That was the great unfulfilled prophecy of Jesus, when Jesus himself would be vindicated as his words come true in dreadful detail. Since then Christians must live as faithful believers, expecting at some unknown time to give account to the Lord they serve.

The cataclysmic event of recent days should not be seen as indicators that Jesus really is coming in our present generation. Rather they should be seen as signs that the world is presently living under the judgment of God, who will bring the Gospel age of grace to an end at some unknown moment, without further warning.

I totally agree with your first paragraph. We should look to see what Scripture says and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture rather than looking at Scripture through a preconceived view (filter) to see how one can fit the Scripture to that. I've seen problems in this area in various Bible study groups over the years. There are actually some who won't touch upon any area dealing with prophecy, especially ast related to the end-times, unless they have a book, or books, by their favorite prophecy author. Rather than looking to Scripture and studying the Word, they continually refer to their prophecy books. It's really impossible to engage in true Bible study with such.

One problem I have with the imminent Rapture idea is that most say the Rapture couldn't really have happened "until" this or that, yet at the same time they say the Rapture has been imminent since Jesus went to heaven. Many who hold to the imminent Rapture view have or yet do state that the Rapture really couldn't have happened until Israel became a nation again...before the advent of nuclear weapons in abundance...without the Soviet Union...without a strong and growing China...until the Roman Empire was revived (most now say this is the EU)...until the Gospel has been preached to every people group...until the Gospel is available in every language...etc.

There are many things tied up in most imminent Rapture views I've studied which indicates that while they may believe somehow the Rapture has always been imminent, their own views on the matter declare many things had to take place before there could be a Rapture. This is inconsistent yet when I've asked various folks about this they tend to stammer something along the lines of certain things were/are necessary but somehow Jesus could have Raptured us before then anyway...huh?

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One problem I have with the imminent Rapture idea is that most say the Rapture couldn't really have happened "until" this or that, yet at the same time they say the Rapture has been imminent since Jesus went to heaven. Many who hold to the imminent Rapture view have or yet do state that the Rapture really couldn't have happened until Israel became a nation again...before the advent of nuclear weapons in abundance...without the Soviet Union...without a strong and growing China...until the Roman Empire was revived (most now say this is the EU)...until the Gospel has been preached to every people group...until the Gospel is available in every language...etc.


Scripturally there is nothing that must happen prior to the rapture. It could happen at any time, which is why we are told to watch and be ready always for his return. Now we can see things like the restoration of the nation of Israel in scripture, but nothing says that it must happen prior to the rapture. One of the major problems those who do not believe in the rapture have to deal with is why there are so many scriptural exhortations to watch and be ready for the return of Christ. If Christians were to go through the great tribulation and Christ was to appear at the end of it it would be a no brainer. If the anti-christ, the false prophet, the mark of the beast in the hand or head etc. hasn't happened yet then there would be no point watching for Christs return if one believed he was returning at the end of the seven year tribulation.

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Scripturally there is nothing that must happen prior to the rapture. It could happen at any time, which is why we are told to watch and be ready always for his return.

Paul stated that the man of sin & the events of 2 Thes. 2 must take place before the day of Christ. And when he shall come to be glorified in his saints tribulation of the wicked will be total.

2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now we can see things like the restoration of the nation of Israel in scripture, but nothing says that it must happen prior to the rapture. Where is this prophesied specifically in the NT? Rom. 11 prophesies if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
One of the major problems those who do not believe in the rapture have to deal with is why there are so many scriptural exhortations to watch and be ready for the return of Christ.
Do we not need exhortation to faithfully serve him? If you knew he was coming this Easter Day, would you need to change how you live? At death we appear before him.

If Christians were to go through the great tribulation and Christ was to appear at the end of it it would be a no brainer. If the anti-christ, the false prophet, the mark of the beast in the hand or head etc. hasn't happened yet then there would be no point watching for Christs return if one believed he was returning at the end of the seven year tribulation.
You are running ahead of us, & accepting the disp doctrine of a future "great tribulation" rather than simply reading what Scripture says. Jesus taught the great tribulation in the context of the destruction, & warned Christians to flee Jerusalem & Judea to escape it.

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Is there a holy place on earth? Where should we run?

John & I are saying that we should see what Scripture actually teaches, rather than interpreting through any "filter."

Edited by Covenanter

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