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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

CoC,

Correct me if I'm wrong on these points, but the Church of Christ folks I've run into have believed these things; I'd like to know if you do as well:


1. Before conversion you can't pray the sinner's prayer vocally because God doesn't hear sinners, you must have someone else pray it on your behalf.

2. Being baptized isn't good enough; you must be baptized by someone from the CoC.

3. Being baptized by someone from the CoC still isn't good enough; you must be part of and remain a member of a local Church of Christ assembly.

4. Being a baptized member of a local CoC church still isn't good enough, you must "stay right" or something else that isn't clear (no CoC member has ever been able to specify to me) to remain "saved."

5. Even if you are a faithful, working, baptized member of the CoC, that still isn't a guarantee. You must continue to believe all the doctrines laid down by the CoC and be against the ones they are against. If you disagree with the CoC (an example being someone convinces you of the Trinity or Godhead or other doctrines that the CoC are against) then you are no longer saved.


I'm not saying you believe these things: I'm asking you. Please respond to all five points.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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You know Seth, (55) I am sure that you are likely right in that Salyan simply does not want to go over the same subject again; I am sure that there are others who feel the same way, but the truth remains that it is always the right time to discuss salvation. As far as stony ground….I don’t give up on hoping that the Word will hit its mark. One person may choose to ignore or reject the truth but you never know who might be reached at some point. I know that there are many Christians who do not think that door knocking is of any benefit; they believe that it just doesn’t work. I will admit that most people will reject the Word but I have been on more than one door knocking campaign and even 1 person reached is worth the effort.

I believe that the confusion, (57) at least in some cases, is in a misunderstanding of the subject of works. The Bible speaks about meritorious works and it also speaks of works of obedience. Baptism is not a work of merit. It is a work of obedience. I was not baptized in order to earn my salvation; I, nor any other person, will ever merit salvation. We simply can not earn our salvation. But, does that mean that there is nothing for me to do? Not according to the Bible. One thing which we are required to do is to be baptized. We are commanded to be baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are told to be baptized for salvation (Mark 16:16). We are taught that we are to be baptized to wash away our sins (Acts 22:16). Yes, it is the blood of Christ which washes us but it is through baptism we contact that blood. Annie, are you suggesting that we simply set back and wait for the HS to teach us the truth? Are you saying that man does not play a part in reaching the lost or that it is not though preaching that man is reached? If that is what you are suggesting, I would suggest you read 1 Cor 1:21 (Cf Acts 9, 22, 26).

Jerry, (58) I do not agree with your views on Salvation. I am sad to know that you don’t see the truth (I don’t say that with any malice or pride but with sincere concern) but I don’t understand your enjoyment in sharing the truth (at least what you see as the truth). I love to share the Word of God with others. I know of many who think it is a waste of time, who think that there are so many things that we can better spend our time doing. I love the Word of God, and I love sharing it with anyone and everyone that I can. Yes, there are many who reject it and many who will treat anyone sharing the Word very hatefully. I spoke of door knocking. I have on more than one occasion had the door slammed in my face; I recall one home where the door was slammed in our face not once but twice (wife and then the husband). The Bible teaches that the person is not rejecting me (or who ever is sharing the truth) but God.

First of all Matt (59), I am not a pastor but a preacher. Pastors are Elders not preacher, but that is another discussion. Also, a person does not have to be baptized by a preacher nor by a pastor; any man can baptize another person. As I stated above, baptism is not a meritorious work but a work of obedience. Man is the one who is being baptized.

Tim, I am not attempting to lead anyone astray. I am simply trying share the truth with others. Ah…out comes the word Campbellism. I have been called a Campbellite before. I am not and your calling me such does nothing more than shows your lack of knowledge on church history as a whole and on the restoration specifically. Alexander Campbell did not found the church of Christ (Jesus did that) nor did he even found it in the US. The church was here prior to Alexander Campbell even coming to the US. You should do some research.

Tim, I can and have supported everything that I have said about both Salvation and MI. The Bible is quiet clear even if man does not want to hear it.

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CoC,

Correct me if I'm wrong on these points, but the Church of Christ folks I've run into have believed these things; I'd like to know if you do as well:


1. Before conversion you can't pray the sinner's prayer vocally because God doesn't hear sinners, you must have someone else pray it on your behalf.

2. Being baptized isn't good enough; you must be baptized by someone from the CoC.

3. Being baptized by someone from the CoC still isn't good enough; you must be part of and remain a member of a local Church of Christ assembly.

4. Being a baptized member of a local CoC church still isn't good enough, you must "stay right" or something else that isn't clear (no CoC member has ever been able to specify to me) to remain "saved."

5. Even if you are a faithful, working, baptized member of the CoC, that still isn't a guarantee. You must continue to believe all the doctrines laid down by the CoC and be against the ones they are against. If you disagree with the CoC (an example being someone convinces you of the Trinity or Godhead or other doctrines that the CoC are against) then you are no longer saved.


I'm not saying you believe these things: I'm asking you. Please respond to all five points.


Rick,

I posted just after you did; sorry that I missed your post. I will be glad to answer your questions or any others as well. Allow me to clearify the apparent idea that you seem to have about the church of Christ. We do not have any creeds or such. We simply look to the Bible and follow that. The Bible is our only authority. I believe that the Baptist actually believe this. Of course, as individuals there are differing views on various issues. I will do the best I can to answer your questions.

1. If you are speaking of the sinner’s prayer in the sense that I understand it (“Lord come into my heart….or such) then there is no such thing. The Bible does not teach any such thing. We are not saved by saying some sinner’s prayer.
2. Actually, I answered this question in my previous post. The issue isn’t the specific person baptizing but the person who is being baptized.
3. You must remain faith even to the point of death (Rev 2:10). I trust that this question is getting at the doctrine of “once saved always saved.” The Bible does not teach this false doctrine.
4. I am not sure exactly what your asking here so I can not really answer your question other than to repeat what I stated in #3 since I suppose you are again discussing once saved always saved.
5. Again, you appear to be discussing once saved always saved. If you wanted to discuss the subject, you should have just brought it up. This seems to be your concern. I do want to say as to your reference to the trinity or Godhead, that you have brought this up before. I attempted to clear up your misconception but must have not succeeded. While there are some who profess to be members of the Lord’s church who deny the trinity, most members of the Lord’s church teach the “trinity.” That is that there is 3 in 1. We know from the Bible that there is but one God but there are three “persons” in the Godhead (Father, Son, HS). I must admit that I do not completely understand everything about God I will continue to study and do the best that I can.
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Rick,

I posted just after you did; sorry that I missed your post. I will be glad to answer your questions or any others as well. Allow me to clearify the apparent idea that you seem to have about the church of Christ. We do not have any creeds or such. We simply look to the Bible and follow that. The Bible is our only authority. I believe that the Baptist actually believe this. Of course, as individuals there are differing views on various issues. I will do the best I can to answer your questions.

1. If you are speaking of the sinner’s prayer in the sense that I understand it (“Lord come into my heart….or such) then there is no such thing. The Bible does not teach any such thing. We are not saved by saying some sinner’s prayer.
2. Actually, I answered this question in my previous post. The issue isn’t the specific person baptizing but the person who is being baptized.
3. You must remain faith even to the point of death (Rev 2:10). I trust that this question is getting at the doctrine of “once saved always saved.” The Bible does not teach this false doctrine.
4. I am not sure exactly what your asking here so I can not really answer your question other than to repeat what I stated in #3 since I suppose you are again discussing once saved always saved.
5. Again, you appear to be discussing once saved always saved. If you wanted to discuss the subject, you should have just brought it up. This seems to be your concern. I do want to say as to your reference to the trinity or Godhead, that you have brought this up before. I attempted to clear up your misconception but must have not succeeded. While there are some who profess to be members of the Lord’s church who deny the trinity, most members of the Lord’s church teach the “trinity.” That is that there is 3 in 1. We know from the Bible that there is but one God but there are three “persons” in the Godhead (Father, Son, HS). I must admit that I do not completely understand everything about God I will continue to study and do the best that I can.


I appreciate the effort, but I feel like you didn't answer my questions specifically. There are tons of Christians who don't believe in Eternal Security, that's only a small part of what I'm trying to understand here. The fact that you believe in the Trinity is surprising to me, every CoC I've run into doesn't. This is interesting. I'll ask some follow-up questions to perhaps better explain what I'm trying to gather here:

1) Are you saying an unsaved sinner can't pray a "prayer of faith" to ask Jesus into their heart, or to ask forgiveness as it is commonly taught? You told me there is no such thing as the "sinner prayer," but that was only half of the question. Does God hear the prayer of unsaved sinners or not? If not, does someone else have to pray on behalf of the sinner?

2) Let me clarify, I've been baptized - am I saved? Is getting baptized enough, or do I have to have faith in the baptism (or faith in Christ through the baptism) to be washed by the blood? Furthermore, there are TONS of professing Christians that believe that baptism is part of salvation but they are not and never have been a member of a local Church of Christ assembly or baptized by one. Is their baptism good enough to save them or are they required to be baptized by a member of the CoC? Please be specific.

3) This question is much deeper than the "once saved, always saved" thing. Once again, there are tons of Christians that believe you must stay faithful to remain saved. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you do they have to keep going to a Church of Christ church to remain saved? What if they think a Baptist, Nazarene, or some other type of church is a better fit for them after becoming CoC? What if there is no CoC locally and they must attend a church of a different type? The churches in the New Testament all had huge problems and some of them were even doctrinal errors, yet they were still the Lord's churches.

4) What does "remain faithful" mean, specifically? If I'm going to church is that good enough? What does a person have to do or not do? We're talking about eternity here, there needs to be specifics.

5) I think you've answered this. In your strain of the CoC, it appears that you can disagree on some doctrinal issues. The CoCs I've run into in the past all had to believe the same thing and if someone disagreed they would no longer be saved. According to them, you're on your way to Hell because you believe in the Trinity. I'm being honest: the specific question I asked them was, "If a Church of Christ member does everything else right but believes in the Trinity is he okay?" The answer was 'he is lost and on his way to Hell and needs to repent.' Edited by Rick Schworer
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A very short sinners prayer, right from the New Testament.

Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

And remember what Jesus stated about the two.

Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Yes, its very clear, God heard the publican.

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I didn't take it as so much an "objection" to talking about salvation issues as being tired of the exact same stony ground being gone over again in a short period of time. How long or how much seed to throw on stony ground? I personally don't mind it being discussed but I don't think any of us are under any illusions as to the result. Coc333 will insist baptism is part of salvation and that we are ignoring the scriptures, and pretty much everyone else will say in various ways that he is a unbiblical heretic and that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and is the first step of obedience to Christ rather than having anything to do with salvation. End of story.

:goodpost:
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Now, let us turn to the topic of mechanical instruments (MI). There are multiple people involved in this discussion so I will attempt to answer any and all points in this one post rather than posting individual replies. Forgive me if I miss one of your points; I will try my best to get to each one. Again, I will try to post the specific post number which is found in the top right hand of each post.

Seth, (post 38), you failed to list even one passage that says that it is ok to use MI in NT worship services. The passages which you did list (Matt 5:17, 1 Cor 10:11, 2 Tim 3:16-17) does not in any way justify MI. Yes, the OT is inspired. Yes, it is there for our benefit, for our learning (Rom 15:4) and yes, Christ came to fulfill rather than to destroy. He did fulfill and it was nailed to His cross (Col 2:14).

Here is a thought for you. What does 2 Peter 1:3 tell us? It tells us that God has provided to us everything pertaining to life and Godliness (of course we are under the NT which is what Peter is discussing). We are not told that we are to use MI in NT worship. Therefore, it must not pertain to life and Godliness. Rom 10:17 tells us that faith comes from the Word of God (NT in our case). We are not told to use MI in the NT worship. Therefore it must not be of faith that MI is used.

It amazes me how everyone keeps bringing up things which do not have anything to do with worshipping God. Toilets (post 9), English translations (38), Buildings (38), Automobiles (41), shoes (40) are all brought up to try to justify the use of MI in NT worship. Again, not one of these has anything to do with proper worship. Not one of these in anyway changes the worship of God. If this is the best anyone has then there isn’t much that you have to “hang your hat on” in relation to MI.

Seth, you say that “Biblically Christians have liberty to do anything they like as long as it is not sin in and of itself, and is not a bad testimony and stumbling block to others that leads them astray.” I suppose that you can use hamburgers and coke on the Lord’s Supper if you so desire. We both know better than that. Yet we have no command not to. The Bible is clear as to how man is to worship God.

It says that we are to do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). Remember that truth is in fact the Word of God (John 17:17). We will focus our discussion on the singing aspect of worship rather than each aspect of worship. We are told to sing (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). I am told to do so with understanding (1 Cor 14:15). I am told what to sing and what singing is for (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). Yet, I am not told in even 1 passage in the NT that I am to play a MI. Surely God is smart enough to know what He wants, isn’t He? Surely if He want MI, he would have given command or even an example of their use in the NT and yet He did not do so. Why?

I so often hear someone make the argument that God has not told us NOT to use them. He did not give us any command NOT to use them. IF only He would have said thou shalt NOT use MI, I would not use them. How many of those same people would agree with that same argument if it was turned against them. What if “Bob” was to go to the repair shop and tell the mechanic that he wanted his car’s oil changed? He leaves the car there and goes shopping with his wife. Upon returning a few hours later he finds a bill which is not only for an oil change but also includes 4 new tires and a paint job. Bob tells his mechanic that he did not authorize him to do such. To which the mechanic replies…you did not tell me not to either. Would Bob pay the bill? Would the law expect him to? Why is it we would have no problem understanding this in our own lives but when God tells us what he wants, we think he also has to tell us what he did not want?

Noah is a prime example of what could have been done. God said use Gopher wood. What if Noah had have chosen to include pine and cedar and maybe some oak, after all, God did not say not to, did He?

Jerry, you are talking about a pitch pipe. (39) We do not use a pitch pipe at the congregation that I am with though I have seen it used. It is blown to find the pitch and then put away prior to singing. It is not used as a part of the worship service and does not change worship to God in any way. If it was used while singing, I would be the first to say that the Bible does not permit it.

Covenant (40) once again you go to the OT. We are under the NT. Please provide even 1 verse in the NT which authorizes the use of MI in NT worship. Until then, you are simply offering your own desire over that of God’s Word.

Covenant, sin is sin. It is all the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) or failing to do that which we know is good (James 4:17). The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 and it separates us from God (Isa 59:1-2).

But, we are not abiding in Him if we are not continuing to obey Him.

Rick ( 42), Rick, Rick Rick…..where do I even begin? Are you suggesting that because one person who claims to be a member of the church of Christ did something which has no bases on scripture (the lady you mentioned) that we all are somehow confused? Surely you can see the lack of any understanding in that? I see so many different views among the IFB on this very site. Am I to take the views of one and then label you as believing that even though you don’t? Are there those who profess to be faithful members of the Lord’s church who teach and/or practice error? Certainly…I can name more than one; but whatever any one person teaches, the word still says what it says and it does not authorize the use of MI.


I noticed that you listed the things mentioned that are not in the NT and there post # and how that none of them have to do with worship. You are correct in the ones you repeated. But you skipped at least one. In post 13 baptistries are mentioned. Do you have a problem with them?? You see I would think that as important as baptism is (whether for obedience as my view or salvation your view) it would have a huge bearing on WORSHIP. And what is a baptistry used for? Baptism, a part of worship (obedience or salvation makes no difference to the thought). But can you show me where Bible baptisms were done?? John baptized in the Jordon. Philip and the eunuch "came unto a certain water". No where is a baptistry mentioned. There may be places that simply say baptized without any discriptive of the place, but there is no baptistry. Therefore they must be sinful, right???
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Baptisteries, is a baptisteries mechanical? One thing for sure, its man made, not mentioned in the New Testament, and all New Testament baptizing was in water, such as at the river, creek, ect.

Good thought rancher.

Of course I think its a silly argument, yet, if on the other hand you deem mechanical music ungodly, and there is no authority for it, that its a sin, them one would contradict their self if they used a mechanical man made baptisteries.

Seems John was baptizing where there was much water.

John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

No mechanical baptisteries for him.

Never been in one, we have plenty of water, even in dry spells, and we are in a dry spell right now, although a bit cool at this time of year.

Least I have never seen the commandment that thy mayest use a baptisteries.

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I appreciate the effort, but I feel like you didn't answer my questions specifically. There are tons of Christians who don't believe in Eternal Security, that's only a small part of what I'm trying to understand here. The fact that you believe in the Trinity is surprising to me, every CoC I've run into doesn't. This is interesting. I'll ask some follow-up questions to perhaps better explain what I'm trying to gather here:

1) Are you saying an unsaved sinner can't pray a "prayer of faith" to ask Jesus into their heart, or to ask forgiveness as it is commonly taught? You told me there is no such thing as the "sinner prayer," but that was only half of the question. Does God hear the prayer of unsaved sinners or not? If not, does someone else have to pray on behalf of the sinner?

2) Let me clarify, I've been baptized - am I saved? Is getting baptized enough, or do I have to have faith in the baptism (or faith in Christ through the baptism) to be washed by the blood? Furthermore, there are TONS of professing Christians that believe that baptism is part of salvation but they are not and never have been a member of a local Church of Christ assembly or baptized by one. Is their baptism good enough to save them or are they required to be baptized by a member of the CoC? Please be specific.

3) This question is much deeper than the "once saved, always saved" thing. Once again, there are tons of Christians that believe you must stay faithful to remain saved. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you do they have to keep going to a Church of Christ church to remain saved? What if they think a Baptist, Nazarene, or some other type of church is a better fit for them after becoming CoC? What if there is no CoC locally and they must attend a church of a different type? The churches in the New Testament all had huge problems and some of them were even doctrinal errors, yet they were still the Lord's churches.

4) What does "remain faithful" mean, specifically? If I'm going to church is that good enough? What does a person have to do or not do? We're talking about eternity here, there needs to be specifics.

5) I think you've answered this. In your strain of the CoC, it appears that you can disagree on some doctrinal issues. The CoCs I've run into in the past all had to believe the same thing and if someone disagreed they would no longer be saved. According to them, you're on your way to Hell because you believe in the Trinity. I'm being honest: the specific question I asked them was, "If a Church of Christ member does everything else right but believes in the Trinity is he okay?" The answer was 'he is lost and on his way to Hell and needs to repent.'


Rick, allow me to try again.

1. The Bible does not at any point give any command to nor any example of any person “praying Jesus into his heart.” We are not saved through some prayer. Now, does God hear a prayer given by a sinner (a non-Christian/someone not saved)? I have hear people who have said yes and I have heard those who have said no, but it isn’t what a person says but what God’s word says. We have John 9:31 which says, “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” This man made the statement that God doesn’t, but what this man speaking by inspiration. I don’t see any indication that he was. We have the example of Cornelius in Acts 10 who was not a Christian at this point and prayed. God certainly heard his prayers. We have various passages which discuss the prayers of the saints. (1 John 5:14-15, Heb 4:14-16, etc.) I certainly believe that as a Christian I have blessings which those who are not in Christ do not (Eph 1:3). The real question is does God answer the prayers of sinners?

2. One must be baptized (Mark 16:16; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3, etc). It does matter why we are baptized. Acts 2:38 states that we must be baptized for (unto) remission of sins. If I am “baptized because I have already been saved” then I am not obeying this command. My faith is in Christ; it is in that if I submit to Him/obey Him then I am saved. I am not saved because I have earned/merited anything but because I did what He commanded me to because He is Lord and He is the perfect sacrifice. I realize that most people who profess “faith only” accuse me of preaching a meritorious works salvation; that is simply not the case. I can not say it enough. I can do nothing that will ever earn my salvation…ever, but that does not mean that there is nothing that I must do. Again, it does not matter who the man is who baptizes the individual. What does matter is the heart (mind) of the person who is being baptized.

3. A person who obeys the Gospel does have to remain faithful (Rev 2:10). That does include actually continuing to be a part of the worship service, the assembling of the saints (Heb 10:24-25). Since denominationalism is sinful (1 Cor 1:10, Eph 4:1ff, John 17), then I can not be a part of such. Allow me to explain it this way…..we will link it to our discussion of MI….if it is a sin to worship the Lord with MI, then I am not being faithful to participate in such worship. I realize that you do not believe it is a sin but I submit to you that the Bible does teach that it is and thus it would be sinful to participate in such and I would not be faithful in doing so. I am also not faithful in participating in denominationalism/division.

4. Not to oversimplify things but follow the Bible. I can not in one or two sentences answer this question. One must faithfully assemble with the saints, worship God in the manner that he/she is commanded to do, live the life of a Christian avoiding those things which are sinful (Gal 5:19ff, Col 3:1ff, etc). I know that this may not answer your question to your satisfaction but it is the best I can do in a sentence or two. I am not sure if you are getting at the point of a “creed” or not but I will say that we do not have a creed; we do not have two or three or ten points that sums everything up.

5. Please define what you mean by doctrinal. If you are speaking about salvation, proper worship, etc then in no way am I saying that we can disagree with the Bible. There are issues that many people argue over which is silly to worry about. I have heard of a few who do not believe in the trinity but not many. I believe it was Barton W. Stone during the restoration period who denied the trinity. I have a book by one Gospel preacher who denies the trinity but those may be the only two in the church that I know anything of. I don’t know who you have been around but I can only speak of my experience. I will say this, I would be more that happy to discuss this subject with anyone and can provide ample scripture related to this matter.

Again, I hope that I have answered your questions this time. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss the Word.
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Jerry, (66) first we see that this passage is describing a discussion of Christ during His life. It is not speaking of an event in the church age since the church had not been established at this point. Second, this is not describing the “sinner’s prayer” which is so often used by those who claim to believe in “faith only.” I say claimed because I have not found many who profess to believe in faith only who actually preach/practice it. Most add grace, repentance, confession, the blood of Christ (all of which are a part of salvation but exclude the claim of faith only), even “the sinner’s prayer” which is not found in the Bible. Actually, what seems to be the true meaning of the “faith only” doctrine is that being baptized is not part of salvation. I have some friends who are Baptist (Not IFB) who claim that one is saved by faith but once one is saved then he/she must be baptized and if he/she is not baptized then he/she was NEVER saved in the first place. Funny, sounds like a person admitting that one must be baptized in order to be saved.

Rancher (69), tell me how a baptistery has anything to do with the worship service. It is related to salvation in that we are immersed in water in the baptistery but the Bible does not specify where the water must be. We are taught that we must be baptized/immersed in water, much water at that (John 3:23, Acts 8:36ff) but what contains the water is not specified. There actually have been those who would cause division over such an issue; how sad how many ways man can find to divide the Lord’s church.

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Rancher (69), tell me how a baptistery has anything to do with the worship service. It is related to salvation in that we are immersed in water in the baptistery but the Bible does not specify where the water must be. We are taught that we must be baptized/immersed in water, much water at that (John 3:23, Acts 8:36ff) but what contains the water is not specified. There actually have been those who would cause division over such an issue; how sad how many ways man can find to divide the Lord’s church.


Do Coc churches like yours use hymnals? That is certainly as related to worship as using musical instruments is. Edited by Seth-Doty
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Do Coc churches like yours use hymnals? That is certainly as related to worship as using musical instruments is.


Seth, yes we use hymnals/song books. No, it is not the same thing as using MI. The hymnal/song book is an aide which does not change worship in any way. I am commanded to sing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16). If I use a song book am I doing anything other than singing? No, of course not. But, what if I use MI? Am I then doing something more than singing? Absolutely. I am now singing and playing. These are not the same thing.

This is why it is important to study hermenutics. We have been studying the subject here.
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Seth, yes we use hymnals/song books. No, it is not the same thing as using MI. The hymnal/song book is an aide which does not change worship in any way. I am commanded to sing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16).


It seems anything you use or do "doesn't change worship in any way" but anything you don't does. So far pretty much your only argument against using instruments in worship has been that you don't have a specific recorded case of it in the NT never mind the large number of recorded cases of just that in the OT. You don't have any recorded cases of hymnals in the NT either.

If I use a song book am I doing anything other than singing? No, of course not. But, what if I use MI? Am I then doing something more than singing? Absolutely. I am now singing and playing. These are not the same thing.


Yes, your singing and "reading" the song out of a "man made" book instead of singing just from the heart. :frog:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

What does that say? It says let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom not the words in the hymnal. Singing with grace, not singing with man made hymnals. :frog: Just poking you though I really do think your being extremely inconsistent in your position.
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It seems anything you use or do "doesn't change worship in any way" but anything you don't does. So far pretty much your only argument against using instruments in worship has been that you don't have a specific recorded case of it in the NT never mind the large number of recorded cases of just that in the OT. You don't have any recorded cases of hymnals in the NT either.



Yes, your singing and "reading" the song out of a "man made" book instead of singing just from the heart. :frog:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

What does that say? It says let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom not the words in the hymnal. Singing with grace, not singing with man made hymnals. :frog: Just poking you though I really do think your being extremely inconsistent in your position.


Seth, I am not being inconsistent. You are taking things which are not equal, not the same and attempting to make them equal, make them the same; but you can't.

As I stated in my previous post, the real problem is in our hermonutics. How do we read and interpret the Bible. If we do not get this point correct then we will get so many other issues wrong. I don't know how much studying you have put into church History, especially the restoration period in the US. You might be aware that there was a division (a falling away) between the church of Christ and the Christian Church. Most people who look at this issue think that it was over the use of MI but in fact the real issue is biblical authority. This is all related to proper hermenutics.

You and others seem to think that it all comes down to my personal preference vs your pp; my own interpretation vs your int. And that one is as good as another but it isn't about me nor you. I would like to share a quote with you. Brother Roy Deaver, a gospel preacher who has passed from this life, wrote in his book Ascertaining Bible Authority, "The authority lies not in the fact that I read it, but in the fact that god wrote it; not in the fact that I reasoned correctly, but in the fac that God implied it." pg 57

The Bible does not teach against MI because I prefer it or because I interpreted it as such but because God said what He said. Salvation does not include baptism because I believe it does nor because I interpreted it as such but in fact because that is what God has said.
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Good point, of which I made in a previous post, until a person is saved, a person cannot discerned God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's why you will never get anywhere discussing such issues as most are brining up.

For the unsaved do not have the Holy Spirit {Holy Ghost} dwelling within them, only the saved.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The lost person, not having the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they cannot compare spiritual things.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The do not have the Holy Ghost that's needed in order to learn about God.

I've always been amazed at the number of Christians that will argue over and over with lost people Bible doctrine, trying to convince them of Bible truths, they seem to forget, 1st, the person has to be saved before they will ever understand any Bible doctrine.

That is the reason I refuse to go the message boards of those who believe one is saved differently than we teach and argue Bible doctrine with them. That is the reason when visiting someone at home finding out that they are lost, if they will not let me show them how to be saved, yet they want to argue about the Bible, I quickly and polity leave. For it will go no where.

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Good point, of which I made in a previous post, until a person is saved, a person cannot discerned God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's why you will never get anywhere discussing such issues as most are brining up.

For the unsaved do not have the Holy Spirit {Holy Ghost} dwelling within them, only the saved.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The lost person, not having the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they cannot compare spiritual things.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The do not have the Holy Ghost that's needed in order to learn about God.

I've always been amazed at the number of Christians that will argue over and over with lost people Bible doctrine, trying to convince them of Bible truths, they seem to forget, 1st, the person has to be saved before they will ever understand any Bible doctrine.

That is the reason I refuse to go the message boards of those who believe one is saved differently than we teach and argue Bible doctrine with them. That is the reason when visiting someone at home finding out that they are lost, if they will not let me show them how to be saved, yet they want to argue about the Bible, I quickly and polity leave. For it will go no where.


Amen, as I go out to speak to others there are those who seem to want to stand a argue scripture, versions and religion, I too do the best I can to walk away without slamming a door shut on the hope that later there maybe someone that can reach them with the truth. The two groups that seem to be the most militant on their beliefs when I knock at their door are some Catholics and coc's and th coc,s seem to be the more militant, even to the point I have had some of them to start hollering at me. There also seems to be two groups of coc's and the one is more militant than the other, to the point of confrontation.

With coc333, it seems to me that coc333 is from that group, he is going to stand and argue his points no matter what scripture we give him to share our beliefs with him, I have seen, saylan post asking to try to understand what the coc believe and and think he must believe this back and forth is counterproductive to his ability to understand the difference. All I can say is pray and study the word of God, KJB, and look at the what it says as a whole.
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Good point, of which I made in a previous post, until a person is saved, a person cannot discerned God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's why you will never get anywhere discussing such issues as most are brining up.

For the unsaved do not have the Holy Spirit {Holy Ghost} dwelling within them, only the saved.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The lost person, not having the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they cannot compare spiritual things.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The do not have the Holy Ghost that's needed in order to learn about God.

I've always been amazed at the number of Christians that will argue over and over with lost people Bible doctrine, trying to convince them of Bible truths, they seem to forget, 1st, the person has to be saved before they will ever understand any Bible doctrine.

That is the reason I refuse to go the message boards of those who believe one is saved differently than we teach and argue Bible doctrine with them. That is the reason when visiting someone at home finding out that they are lost, if they will not let me show them how to be saved, yet they want to argue about the Bible, I quickly and polity leave. For it will go no where.



Jerry,

If a lost person can not understand ANY Bible doctrine until he/she is saved and If God's plan of Salvation is Bible doctrine and if a person can not do what is needed until he/she knows what it is that he/she must do (whether it is by "faith only" or whatever else) then no lost person could ever be saved.

We can easily see that does not work.
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Amen, as I go out to speak to others there are those who seem to want to stand a argue scripture, versions and religion, I too do the best I can to walk away without slamming a door shut on the hope that later there maybe someone that can reach them with the truth. The two groups that seem to be the most militant on their beliefs when I knock at their door are some Catholics and coc's and th coc,s seem to be the more militant, even to the point I have had some of them to start hollering at me. There also seems to be two groups of coc's and the one is more militant than the other, to the point of confrontation.

With coc333, it seems to me that coc333 is from that group, he is going to stand and argue his points no matter what scripture we give him to share our beliefs with him, I have seen, saylan post asking to try to understand what the coc believe and and think he must believe this back and forth is counterproductive to his ability to understand the difference. All I can say is pray and study the word of God, KJB, and look at the what it says as a whole.


Jim,

First allow me to say that I do not who you and Rick and others have been talking with or seeing because most of what I have heard about the church of Christ members which you have "met and or known" are far off from the people that I know. Now, are there some people who profess to be Christians who believe in things contrary to what the Bible says? Of course. Are there people who profess to be Christian who will treat people undkindly? Sadly, yes. I wish that people understood the harm they do by being unkind. But, most members of the church that I know would either not speak at all for fear of saying something wrong or would be joyful to talk with someone about the word of God. At one time I would have fallen into the first group; now I welcome the opportunity to speak to anyone who is willing to discuss the Word.

As far as "arguing no matter what scriptures are shown," I could say the same thing for you. I have shown multiple scriptures which clearly contradict many of the things which you are claiming and yet you still refuse to see the truth.

As to Saylan and others who might wish to understand more about what we believe, I am more than happy to discuss any point with anyone who wishes to know about something. I will answer any question to the best of my ability and when I might not know something I will be more than happy to study further so that I can answer the question. Am I "militant?" Only as far as the Word of God teaches me to be. It teaches me to contend for the faith (Jude 3), to preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15), etc. I will be glad to look at anything anyone has to say but I will not believe it just because it is said. (1 John 4:1)
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