Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

DennisD

Church of Christ

Recommended Posts


Musical instruments were certainly authorized in the worship of God in the OT. The entire chapter of 1 Chronicles 25 talks about who was appointed to play various instruments in the house of God. 1 Chronicles 23:5, 2 Chronicles 5:13, 2 Chronicles 7:6, Psalm 33:2, Psalm: 150 etc. all speak of instruments being used in the worship of God. Unless you can show that there was some reason for that to change in the NT the practice stands as completely biblical. Biblically we know all sorts of musical instruments were used in the OT in the worship of God and in Revelation harps are specifically mentioned as being used in heaven. I can't imagine what the reasoning behind thinking that God does not want Christians using instruments in his worship is. It must be pretty convoluted.


Why Seth, if you have to go to the OT to get mechanical instruments, why do you not bring forth animal sacrifices as well? They were authorized under the OT as well. I trust that you do not call for animal sacrifices though. Just remember that we are not under the OT any longer. Col 2:14 tells us that it was nailed to the cross. Yes, it is there for our learning (Rom 15:4), but we do not worship in the same manner. We live under the NT.

As for Revelation, it is symbolic and you are mistaken as to it being clear that there will be mechanical instruments in heaven.

You don't have to understand God's reasoning since He is much smarter than you are; you just have to obey Him. We all do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[
Why Seth, if you have to go to the OT to get mechanical instruments, why do you not bring forth animal sacrifices as well? They were authorized under the OT as well. I trust that you do not call for animal sacrifices though.


We would, except that the NT makes it clear that the sacrifices were only for a picture of things to come and that Christs sacrifice ended the requirement to offer animals.


Just remember that we are not under the OT any longer. Col 2:14 tells us that it was nailed to the cross. Yes, it is there for our learning (Rom 15:4), but we do not worship in the same manner. We live under the NT.


Can you give one single NT reason why instrumental music should not be used today? Obviously it can't be wrong in and of itself or else those OT verses talking about using it to praise God would not be there. Your only possible avenue would be to show from the NT that that aspect of worship has changed and it is no longer acceptable. There isn't a single thing that would imply that.

As for Revelation, it is symbolic and you are mistaken as to it being clear that there will be mechanical instruments in heaven.


"Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:"

"Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Doesn't look symbolic to me, and even if it were, why would such "symbolism" be used if it were improper to use such instruments in praise of God?

You don't have to understand God's reasoning since He is much smarter than you are; you just have to obey Him. We all do.


Granted, but you have not established that not using musical instruments is a command of God. What scriptures there are on the subject would point the other way actually.

A Simple Question: Is it a sin not to use mechanical instruments in worship service?


No, it isn't wrong "not" to use them, if that were the only problem with the COC I wouldn't take to much issue with them. I would just consider it a odd belief not substantiated or even indicated in any way by scripture but one that was relatively harmless. The most serious problem with the COC is that they add works to grace for salvation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A simple answer to your question, no, yet, the other is of more importance.


Silly of you to bring up sacrifices, grace come in, and of course animal sacrifices never saved no one, that is impossible, yet there was a sacrifice, that being Jesus, and its all about Jesus, He gets all the glory.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

Only Jesus, the blood of Jesus, can take away the sin.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Its so easy, yet Christ is a stumbling block for many, they just can't seem to believe that Jesus is enough, that salvation is only in Jesus, they just feel they have to add something to it.

Salvation only come by grace thought faith in Jesus, not of works, not of self, its a gift. And even John 3:18 and 3:36 makes it so clear, he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, he that doesn't does not. No baptizing there, and never in the Bible does it require baptizing to be saved.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Even this verse is plain, he that believeth shall not be damned. think, its says he that believeth not shall be damned, not he that is not baptized shall be damned, only he that believeth not. Yet there is more.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Clearly, he that confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, nothing about baptizing, its pointing to only Jesus, its all about Him.

Them there is this verse:


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)
Nothing about baptizing, yet he that calls on the Lord, shall be saved.


Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32

Who ever confess Jesus before men, nothing whatsoever about baptizing.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20 (KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17 (KJV)

Yes, Christ will stand at the door of a mans heart, yet he will not come in unless He is asked, and its not by baptizing, Jesus just says come, come and believe.
Yes, seems so many just start stumbling when it come to just trusting Christ, they sense they have to do something, add just a bit to it, and refuse to believe, refuse to place all that faith into Christ, and Him alone. Yes, Jesus has a wonderful gift to offer whosoever, will just accept it, He only ask they you believe on Him, trust and obey.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)

Yes, so simple, believe on Him, that is all it takes, its not about works, its about Jesus, He is enough, and it be only Him that can save a soul from the depths of hell.
Yes, there is one and only one way to the Father, Christ tells us its though Him alone, John 16:6. not through Him plus water baptism, just Him alone. One can only trust and obey Him, and when they do, they will know the moment it happens, the moment the Holy Ghost enters their body, 1 Corinthians 6:19. And they will never be the same, not after they realize the love Jesus has given them by dying upon that cross that they may have:

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Life more abundantly, and that life is before those who have Jesus as their Savior. Oh how we have so much to look forward to, and its due to one that can save us from our sins, if we will just trust Him and accept the free gift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



One might be the United Churches of Christ, the other one, the church of Christ, if so, they be different. First Christin Churches hold to much of the beliefs of the churches of Christ, but they have music instruments. Freewill Baptist hold to many of them as well.

Not defending, trying to keep the record strait. I've never seen a 'church of Christ' with music instruments.

Also, if the CoC are like the IFB in that they are not a denomination but separate, independent churches as are the IFB, one can't proclaim they don't have their story straight because they don't all agree on all points any more than all IFB churches don't agree on all points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest



I can't speak of anyone in your town. What I can say is that the 1st century church did not use mechanical instrument. Neither did the 2nd Century church. The 3rd Century church did not......It wasn't until around 1000 that the Catholic church (obviously they had already fell away in other ways.) added Mechanical instruments. What I can say is that the NT does not authorize it.


Are there those who fall away from the truth? Certainly there are those who do. We would not have the Catholic church or any other denomination if they did not, but any sound congregation will not use mechanical instruments.
Each person is free to make us his or her own mind for him/herself. Each of us will have to answer for our choices and will be judged by the word (John 12:48). I choose to worship the Lord as He has set forth.


If you could provide one scripture reference which forbids the use of a piano or other "mechanical" music device in New Testament Christian churches someone might listen to you. Otherwise, the CoC is no different than the Catholic Church in that regard, dogma/history of the church carry more weight than scripture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



We would, except that the NT makes it clear that the sacrifices were only for a picture of things to come and that Christs sacrifice ended the requirement to offer animals.




Can you give one single NT reason why instrumental music should not be used today? Obviously it can't be wrong in and of itself or else those OT verses talking about using it to praise God would not be there. Your only possible avenue would be to show from the NT that that aspect of worship has changed and it is no longer acceptable. There isn't a single thing that would imply that.



"Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:"

"Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Doesn't look symbolic to me, and even if it were, why would such "symbolism" be used if it were improper to use such instruments in praise of God?



Granted, but you have not established that not using musical instruments is a command of God. What scriptures there are on the subject would point the other way actually.



No, it isn't wrong "not" to use them, if that were the only problem with the COC I wouldn't take to much issue with them. I would just consider it a odd belief not substantiated or even indicated in any way by scripture but one that was relatively harmless. The most serious problem with the COC is that they add works to grace for salvation.


Seth, you can not provide even 1 verse that says "thou shalt not make animal sacrifices." Allow me to be clear that I am not suggesting that we sacrifice animals since the NT does in fact teach that we have a better sacrifice (Christ) and therefore do not need to make such. You also do not have any passage that says not to use hamburgers and coke on the Lord's supper either. Again, I am not suggesting that we use such or that it would even be ok. The Bible clearly tells us what we are to use.

Yes, I can and have given reasons why they are not to be used. We do not use them because we have no authority (In the NT) for them. You can not provide even one passage that justifies/authorizes their use. We are told to sing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16) We are not told to use mechanical instruments. Not one verse that commands it, not one verse that gives us an example of it and not one verse that even inplies that we should use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A simple answer to your question, no, yet, the other is of more importance.


Silly of you to bring up sacrifices, grace come in, and of course animal sacrifices never saved no one, that is impossible, yet there was a sacrifice, that being Jesus, and its all about Jesus, He gets all the glory.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

Only Jesus, the blood of Jesus, can take away the sin.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Its so easy, yet Christ is a stumbling block for many, they just can't seem to believe that Jesus is enough, that salvation is only in Jesus, they just feel they have to add something to it.

Salvation only come by grace thought faith in Jesus, not of works, not of self, its a gift. And even John 3:18 and 3:36 makes it so clear, he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, he that doesn't does not. No baptizing there, and never in the Bible does it require baptizing to be saved.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Even this verse is plain, he that believeth shall not be damned. think, its says he that believeth not shall be damned, not he that is not baptized shall be damned, only he that believeth not. Yet there is more.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Clearly, he that confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, nothing about baptizing, its pointing to only Jesus, its all about Him.

Them there is this verse:


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)
Nothing about baptizing, yet he that calls on the Lord, shall be saved.


Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32

Who ever confess Jesus before men, nothing whatsoever about baptizing.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20 (KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17 (KJV)

Yes, Christ will stand at the door of a mans heart, yet he will not come in unless He is asked, and its not by baptizing, Jesus just says come, come and believe.
Yes, seems so many just start stumbling when it come to just trusting Christ, they sense they have to do something, add just a bit to it, and refuse to believe, refuse to place all that faith into Christ, and Him alone. Yes, Jesus has a wonderful gift to offer whosoever, will just accept it, He only ask they you believe on Him, trust and obey.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)

Yes, so simple, believe on Him, that is all it takes, its not about works, its about Jesus, He is enough, and it be only Him that can save a soul from the depths of hell.
Yes, there is one and only one way to the Father, Christ tells us its though Him alone, John 16:6. not through Him plus water baptism, just Him alone. One can only trust and obey Him, and when they do, they will know the moment it happens, the moment the Holy Ghost enters their body, 1 Corinthians 6:19. And they will never be the same, not after they realize the love Jesus has given them by dying upon that cross that they may have:

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Life more abundantly, and that life is before those who have Jesus as their Savior. Oh how we have so much to look forward to, and its due to one that can save us from our sins, if we will just trust Him and accept the free gift.


It seems that you are wanting to discuss salvation. We were discussing the issue of mechanical instruments but if you wish to discuss salvation, I will be glad to do so again.

Here is a simple question. How many times is the question "What must I do to be saved?" (in one form or another) found in the NT? What is the answer given in each of those times?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


No, but I also don't see where using them is a sin either.


John, it is a sin because there is no authority for it. God has told us what He wants and it is our resposibility to give Him what He wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



If you could provide one scripture reference which forbids the use of a piano or other "mechanical" music device in New Testament Christian churches someone might listen to you. Otherwise, the CoC is no different than the Catholic Church in that regard, dogma/history of the church carry more weight than scripture.


Tim, first allow me to say that there is no passage, not one, in the NT nor in the OT that explicitly states, "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments." But then again you can not provide even 1 passage in the NT (which is what we are under now) that gives you a command to use it, nor an example of their use in NT worship, nor can you provide even 1 passage that implies (inferrence) that we are to use them. Where is your authority? You go back to the OT to try to find it. We are not under the OT any longer.

No, I don't place anything above scripture, but I do recognize the fact that the example (both in the NT and in secular writtings) of the apostles and others of that time is a valid example to look at. I do believe that inspired men carry more weight that does those who have nothing more that men's traditions to offer. The inspired apostles and others of that time did not use them. You use them, not because you have authority for it but because of men's traditions which began with the catholic church around 1000 AD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The topic, church of Christ, is such a broad subject, and I answered the question if using music instruments was a sin with a no, yet as I said, this other is of much greater importance, in fact, its the most important.

You asked, "How many times is the question "What must I do to be saved?" Of which I have already answer, Paul says it this way, that is should a person want to be saved..

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To be saved, confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, and thou shall be saved. Simple isn't it, not even no baptizing. In other words he is saying the same thing that Ephesians 2:8.9, says

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace, plus faith, to be saved, there is nothing possible for you do in order to gain salvation for its not of self, not of works, its a gif, yet you just can't resist adding to it, water baptism, its so hard to accept a free gift, it just seem there has to be something done to get that gift of salvation outside of faith and believing, so many add water baptism. When in fact, Jesus is enough. Jesus saves, water, a baptistery, has never saved anyone.

If, that is if I believe one had to be baptized in order to be saved, myself being a Baptist pastor, I would have to take a baptistery every where I went just in case there was not a body of water handy just in case I come across someone wanting to be saved. There is no way that I could witness to anyone, talking to them about being saved, telling them that they will have to attend the next church services in order to be baptized and fit for heaven, and that it they died before they could be baptized that they could not enter heaven. But I don't have to fear that, because God's Word tells us, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now I know why that beautiful old song says, "Amazing grace, and not, "Amazing Baptistery," for its all about that amazing grace that our Lord shown and offered to such worms as us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Tim, first allow me to say that there is no passage, not one, in the NT nor in the OT that explicitly states, "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments." But then again you can not provide even 1 passage in the NT (which is what we are under now) that gives you a command to use it, nor an example of their use in NT worship, nor can you provide even 1 passage that implies (inferrence) that we are to use them. Where is your authority? You go back to the OT to try to find it. We are not under the OT any longer.


"Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

"1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."


Christ did not come to destroy the entire OT and end it's usefulness to us. If God accepted something as proper in the OT and you think things have changed and it is no longer acceptable in the NT the burden of proof is on you. Such a change can be show for sacrifices and the ceremonial law, but God suddenly disproving of instruments when he clearly had no objection to them in the OT? There isn't any evidence for that, I mean even at the resurrection what happens? The trumpet is sounded, and the dead are then raised. I certainly don't mind acapella singing, but there is an enormous OT precedent for instruments being used in the worship of God and nothing in NT that would change that. Indeed in the OT they are often portrayed as an asset in worship and in bringing the presence of God. For example what happened when the evil spirit was troubling saul? David played his harp and it departed. Then in 2 Kings 3:15 Elisha called for a minstrel and had the Spirit of the Lord come upon him as he heard the minstrel play. The biblical use of instruments by God's people in worship was extensive.

As far as needing specific NT "authority" for each and every aspect of worship, where is the NT "authority" to use a english translation of Gods word? Where is the "authority" for a group of Christians to have a "church building" instead of meeting in a house? Where is the "authority" to have "hymn books" in said church building? I could take any one of those issues and make your argument that there is no NT "authority" for it. Such "no authority" issues could be raised almost without number. See how silly that gets?

Biblically Christians have liberty to do anything they like as long as it is not sin in and of itself, and is not a bad testimony and stumbling block to others that leads them astray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's that little thing they blow on so that they can sing on key? Seems if it wrong to have any musical instrument, that would be wrong as too, so don't they rightly contradict their self.

Off topic a bit. The local SBC downtown invited the Mennonite choir to come sing. Afterwards one person complimented them on their singing. He replied, "I noticed your choir sings rater good too, yet with all that loud music, it drowns them out, you cannot understand hardly a word they sing for the loud music. If y'all would throw out most of those instruments, where they could be heard sining, they would probably get many compliments."

As for me, I dislike all of that loud music, I enjoy hearing what is begin sung.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does "worship" comprise?

Reading Scripture - including the NT writings;
Praying;
Singing Psalms, hymns & spiritual songs;
Preaching the Word;
Prophecy - i.e. speaking unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Musical instruments are given as examples in that passage on church gatherings:
1Cr 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Is v.7 an argument against the use of pitch-pipes?

It is a reasonable understanding that lifeless melodic instruments give a distinction in the sounds aka a tune to guide the singing.

Now, to what extent is it SINFUL to worship in a way not specifically authorised in the NT? Should we keep our shoes on? Should we insist on Jews & Sikhs removing their head coverings? And women keeping long hair & head coverings?

As believers in Jesus as Lord & Saviour, our sins are forgiven - ALL our sins, past present & future. Is the "sin" of singing to a tune played on a musical instrument a "continuing sin" that is utterly forbidden. (Rom. 6)

There are much more serious sins, involving musical instruments.

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 ¶ So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; ...
....
32 And, lo, thou [art] unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Are we sinning by using instruments to help our worship? What dies John say?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest



Tim, first allow me to say that there is no passage, not one, in the NT nor in the OT that explicitly states, "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments." But then again you can not provide even 1 passage in the NT (which is what we are under now) that gives you a command to use it, nor an example of their use in NT worship, nor can you provide even 1 passage that implies (inferrence) that we are to use them. Where is your authority? You go back to the OT to try to find it. We are not under the OT any longer.

No, I don't place anything above scripture, but I do recognize the fact that the example (both in the NT and in secular writtings) of the apostles and others of that time is a valid example to look at. I do believe that inspired men carry more weight that does those who have nothing more that men's traditions to offer. The inspired apostles and others of that time did not use them. You use them, not because you have authority for it but because of men's traditions which began with the catholic church around 1000 AD.


If you could provide one scripture reference which forbids the use of a piano or other "mechanical" music device in New Testament Christian churches someone might listen to you. Otherwise, the CoC is no different than the Catholic Church in that regard, dogma/history of the church carry more weight than scripture.

Your argument holds no water. If it held water then, you could not use a mechanical device to attend worship services. That's right NO CARS allowed for travel to worship services. If I were an English teacher and you were writing a paper I would have to tell you your argument for your supposition is invalid. You're basing your argument on pure preference and dogmatic tradition from your church.
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." -Hebrews 10:25 No where in the O.T. or N.T. can you find a scripture telling you to get in a mechanical device to attend "assembling" i.e. worship services.

MODIFIED BELOW...QUOTING YOU...
first allow me to say that there is no passage, not one, in the NT nor in the OT that explicitly states, "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments transportation." But then again you can not provide even 1 passage in the NT (which is what we are under now) that gives you a command to use it, nor an example of their use in NT worship, nor can you provide even 1 passage that implies (inferrence) that we are to use them. Where is your authority? You go back to the OT to try to find it. We are not under the OT any longer.


I do recognize the fact that the example (both in the NT and in secular writtings) of the apostles and others of that time is a valid example to look at. I do believe that inspired men carry more weight that than does do those who have nothing more that men's traditions to offer. The inspired apostles and others of that time did not use them. You use them, not because you have authority for it but because of men's traditions which began with the catholic church around 1000 AD invention of the automobile around 1900 AD.


Based on your argument...START WALKING to Sunday Services.

Can't you see how absurd your argument is?
Now, on the other hand, if you want to say you don't use mechanical instruments in service because of preference, that's fine. Don't use them because of preference but, don't attempt to say it is because you are following the teaching of the Bible. Don't attempt to make a doctrine out of something that is not clearly spelled out in scripture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's amazing how dispensationally wacky Church of Christ folks get. I showed one how musical instruments were used over and over again in the Old Testament during praise, but he threw that out because it was OT. Then some lady in their church who had been committing adultery repented and shaved all her hair off as a form of cleansing, something they got from the Old Testament. :smilie_loco:4

Edited by Rick Schworer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The topic, church of Christ, is such a broad subject, and I answered the question if using music instruments was a sin with a no, yet as I said, this other is of much greater importance, in fact, its the most important.

You asked, "How many times is the question "What must I do to be saved?" Of which I have already answer, Paul says it this way, that is should a person want to be saved..

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To be saved, confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, and thou shall be saved. Simple isn't it, not even no baptizing. In other words he is saying the same thing that Ephesians 2:8.9, says

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace, plus faith, to be saved, there is nothing possible for you do in order to gain salvation for its not of self, not of works, its a gif, yet you just can't resist adding to it, water baptism, its so hard to accept a free gift, it just seem there has to be something done to get that gift of salvation outside of faith and believing, so many add water baptism. When in fact, Jesus is enough. Jesus saves, water, a baptistery, has never saved anyone.

If, that is if I believe one had to be baptized in order to be saved, myself being a Baptist pastor, I would have to take a baptistery every where I went just in case there was not a body of water handy just in case I come across someone wanting to be saved. There is no way that I could witness to anyone, talking to them about being saved, telling them that they will have to attend the next church services in order to be baptized and fit for heaven, and that it they died before they could be baptized that they could not enter heaven. But I don't have to fear that, because God's Word tells us, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now I know why that beautiful old song says, "Amazing grace, and not, "Amazing Baptistery," for its all about that amazing grace that our Lord shown and offered to such worms as us.


I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the Lord’s church and specific topics related to the church of Christ. I must admit that it is a lot of work trying to have multiple discussions with so many people on multiple topics; I will do my best and hope that you will forgive me if I miss anyone’s specific issue. In order to try to better handle this, I will write on the specific issues rather than trying to answer each and every post separately. I will identify the specific person and post # which is found in the top right corner. I hope that this will be helpful and easier to keep up with. It will certainly cut down on the number of post that I am putting on here.

Now, to the specific issue of salvation: Jerry, you are at this moment the only one focusing on this issue so it should be rather easy to keep up with the conversation. I will first deal with the specific passages/issues that you put forth and then will turn to my previous question.

You present some wonderful passages which discuss salvation. Romans 10:9-10 and Eph 2:8-10 (you only list 8-9 but 10 must be included) are two passages which I frequently use in discussion of the topic of salvation. These passages discuss the importance of Grace, faith, confession and the role that each plays in man’s salvation.

First, we see that Eph 2:8-10 clearly teaches us that we are saved by grace. This is of course God’s part. God has graciously given us that which we certainly do not deserve and that is a means by which we can be saved. We know that He has given that means to you and to me and to every person who has or will ever live. Titus 2:11 tells us that that saving grace has appeared to all men. We know that not all men will be saved so there must be something more. I believe that is a simple thing to understand and that you and I would agree on that point.

Obviously, we can see the importance of faith. Eph 2:8-10 not only tells us that we are saved by grace but that it is by grace through faith. No problem there. We both agree on that point. We can further see that faith is a part of salvation in Rom 10:9-10. We must believe that God has raised him (Jesus) from the dead. There are many other passages that teach that faith is required. We can think of John 3:16, Acts 8:31, etc.

We can also see that confession is important. I don’t think that you and I would have any disagreement on that fact. Rom 10:9-10 tells us that we must confess. Jesus tells us in Matt 10:32-33 that we must confess Him before men. We read in Acts 8:37 of the Ethiopian Eunuch and his confession.

You did not mention repentance but I doubt we would have much problem with agreeing on the need to repent. The Bible certainly teaches us that we must repent. Jesus stated as much in Luke 13:3-5. We are told to do so in Acts 2:38, 3:19 etc. We are given the example of Saul/Paul would was certainly penitent (Acts 9, 22, 26). I believe you would agree with this fact. Please correct me if I am wrong? I might add that neither of the two passages you mentioned discusses repentance. This demonstrates that we can not take these two passages alone and say that that is all that is involved.

Now, where we clearly have an issue is the subject of baptism. Your disagreement is not with me but with the Word of God since it is what tells us that we must be baptized. We are given the express statement “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…” That isn’t all that difficult to understand unless we don’t wish to understand it. Now, I am certain that you will point out that Jesus did not mention baptism in the second part of Mark 16:16. But this is simply ignoring the fact that He did say it in the first part. Let us also remember that if I don’t believe then I won’t be baptized. After all, what would I accomplish other than to get wet? We can read in many other passages that we must be baptized. Rom 6:3ff, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12, Acts 2:38, 22:16, etc. I realize that some might say that this is not speaking of water baptism but it is in fact speaking exactly of that. There is but 1 baptism (Eph 4:5) That baptism is clearly identified in Acts 19:1ff, John 3:23, Acts 8:36ff.

Now, as to my question: I asked how many times the question “what must I do to be saved?” (in one form or another) in the NT. The answer is 4. I will hold off about putting any further info and give you the chance to look these four up. I hope that you will and see what the answer is in each of the 4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, let us turn to the topic of mechanical instruments (MI). There are multiple people involved in this discussion so I will attempt to answer any and all points in this one post rather than posting individual replies. Forgive me if I miss one of your points; I will try my best to get to each one. Again, I will try to post the specific post number which is found in the top right hand of each post.

Seth, (post 38), you failed to list even one passage that says that it is ok to use MI in NT worship services. The passages which you did list (Matt 5:17, 1 Cor 10:11, 2 Tim 3:16-17) does not in any way justify MI. Yes, the OT is inspired. Yes, it is there for our benefit, for our learning (Rom 15:4) and yes, Christ came to fulfill rather than to destroy. He did fulfill and it was nailed to His cross (Col 2:14).

Here is a thought for you. What does 2 Peter 1:3 tell us? It tells us that God has provided to us everything pertaining to life and Godliness (of course we are under the NT which is what Peter is discussing). We are not told that we are to use MI in NT worship. Therefore, it must not pertain to life and Godliness. Rom 10:17 tells us that faith comes from the Word of God (NT in our case). We are not told to use MI in the NT worship. Therefore it must not be of faith that MI is used.

It amazes me how everyone keeps bringing up things which do not have anything to do with worshipping God. Toilets (post 9), English translations (38), Buildings (38), Automobiles (41), shoes (40) are all brought up to try to justify the use of MI in NT worship. Again, not one of these has anything to do with proper worship. Not one of these in anyway changes the worship of God. If this is the best anyone has then there isn’t much that you have to “hang your hat on” in relation to MI.

Seth, you say that “Biblically Christians have liberty to do anything they like as long as it is not sin in and of itself, and is not a bad testimony and stumbling block to others that leads them astray.” I suppose that you can use hamburgers and coke on the Lord’s Supper if you so desire. We both know better than that. Yet we have no command not to. The Bible is clear as to how man is to worship God.

It says that we are to do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). Remember that truth is in fact the Word of God (John 17:17). We will focus our discussion on the singing aspect of worship rather than each aspect of worship. We are told to sing (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). I am told to do so with understanding (1 Cor 14:15). I am told what to sing and what singing is for (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). Yet, I am not told in even 1 passage in the NT that I am to play a MI. Surely God is smart enough to know what He wants, isn’t He? Surely if He want MI, he would have given command or even an example of their use in the NT and yet He did not do so. Why?

I so often hear someone make the argument that God has not told us NOT to use them. He did not give us any command NOT to use them. IF only He would have said thou shalt NOT use MI, I would not use them. How many of those same people would agree with that same argument if it was turned against them. What if “Bob” was to go to the repair shop and tell the mechanic that he wanted his car’s oil changed? He leaves the car there and goes shopping with his wife. Upon returning a few hours later he finds a bill which is not only for an oil change but also includes 4 new tires and a paint job. Bob tells his mechanic that he did not authorize him to do such. To which the mechanic replies…you did not tell me not to either. Would Bob pay the bill? Would the law expect him to? Why is it we would have no problem understanding this in our own lives but when God tells us what he wants, we think he also has to tell us what he did not want?

Noah is a prime example of what could have been done. God said use Gopher wood. What if Noah had have chosen to include pine and cedar and maybe some oak, after all, God did not say not to, did He?

Jerry, you are talking about a pitch pipe. (39) We do not use a pitch pipe at the congregation that I am with though I have seen it used. It is blown to find the pitch and then put away prior to singing. It is not used as a part of the worship service and does not change worship to God in any way. If it was used while singing, I would be the first to say that the Bible does not permit it.

Covenant (40) once again you go to the OT. We are under the NT. Please provide even 1 verse in the NT which authorizes the use of MI in NT worship. Until then, you are simply offering your own desire over that of God’s Word.

Covenant, sin is sin. It is all the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) or failing to do that which we know is good (James 4:17). The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 and it separates us from God (Isa 59:1-2).

But, we are not abiding in Him if we are not continuing to obey Him.

Rick ( 42), Rick, Rick Rick…..where do I even begin? Are you suggesting that because one person who claims to be a member of the church of Christ did something which has no bases on scripture (the lady you mentioned) that we all are somehow confused? Surely you can see the lack of any understanding in that? I see so many different views among the IFB on this very site. Am I to take the views of one and then label you as believing that even though you don’t? Are there those who profess to be faithful members of the Lord’s church who teach and/or practice error? Certainly…I can name more than one; but whatever any one person teaches, the word still says what it says and it does not authorize the use of MI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it really profitable to go down this road again? :icon_rolleyes:

I, for one, would be interested in learning the doctrine of the CoC, but can we please avoid repeating this whole 'baptism & salvation' discussion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it really profitable to go down this road again? :icon_rolleyes:

I, for one, would be interested in learning the doctrine of the CoC, but can we please avoid repeating this whole 'baptism & salvation' discussion?


We could talk about church membership and salvation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

coc333 again, yawn.gif, it seems to me you can use the OT when convenient (your reference to Isaiah), and when Paul wrote the book of Romans there were only 5 other NT (he had writen)+/- books written, the Word of God in existence at that time was the OT. Just my twocents.gif

Edited by Bro Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

It amazes me how everyone keeps bringing up things which do not have anything to do with worshipping God. Toilets (post 9), English translations (38), Buildings (38), Automobiles (41), shoes (40) are all brought up to try to justify the use of MI in NT worship. Again, not one of these has anything to do with proper worship. Not one of these in anyway changes the worship of God. If this is the best anyone has then there isn’t much that you have to “hang your hat on” in relation to MI.


There is no doudt in my mind that you are amazed and easily at that. I'm beginning to understand...if you have no Biblical basis for your Church dogma then you resort to Catholic style avoidance. CoC and RCC both have two Cs in them...I see the similarity now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it really profitable to go down this road again? :icon_rolleyes:

I, for one, would be interested in learning the doctrine of the CoC, but can we please avoid repeating this whole 'baptism & salvation' discussion?



I cannot understand you making this comment, salvation is the most important thing, without it a soul will go to hell to be punished forever. There is never a season that it is not proper to speak about salvation. And without salvation a person cannot under stand God, its a life heart changing experience.

And I can't imagine anyone being opposed to the path to salvation to be proclaim, unless its a lost person that knows not God. And we know quite well that the lost cannot discern God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, until they are 1st saved, they cannot understand spiritual implications of God's Word.

Seems only a lost person and or one that holds to the Calvinist doctrine would oppose to seeing a plan of salvation laid out in a place were a lost person might be. But that is off topic under this topic. But salvation is never off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...