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Not changing the subject, just having a little fun with the absurdity of your logic.

I know why you don't have insturments: because they aren't mentoned in the NT. Which, neither are pews, podiums, baptistries, hymnals . . . or even Bibles.
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No absurdity at all. None of the things which you list change worship to God at all. Again, mechanical instruments do. The Bible does not authorize them. We are commanded to sing and that is all that we should do. I have often wandered why we think that God doesn't know what He wants and what He doesn't. If He tells us what He wants, should we not simply give Him that and leave other things off?

By the way, Ez.ra stood in a pulpit in Nehemiah 8:4. That doesn't say podium but pulpit/podium....same thing. Of course that was not in the 1st century church either....
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With regards to musical instruments...many Baptist churches, as well as other churches, didn't allow musical instruments early on and for many years beyond that.

One of the complaints the conservative churches in England had when Moody toured their land was his use of an organ that he brought with him for Sankey to play.


The Catholics added instruments...around 1000 AD, I believe it was.
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With regards to musical instruments...many Baptist churches, as well as other churches, didn't allow musical instruments early on and for many years beyond that.

One of the complaints the conservative churches in England had when Moody toured their land was his use of an organ that he brought with him for Sankey to play.


Many believers, when they were exiled from England in Netherlands, before about 1640, did not allow any bible versions, The preacher had to read and traanslate directly from the original languages as he spoke. They did not allow instruments, either. In the Brethren breaking of bread services, they did not allow instruments but did in their Gospel preaching services.
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The Episcopal church is a denomination which teaches infant baptism, the acceptance of women and homosexual priests and bishops and other matters that one can look into which are unbiblical. Any church carrying the Episcopal name is yoked with their denomination.

Beyond that, this particular thread is regarding the Church of Christ, which I'm looking forward to learning more about. There are other threads on the false teachings of the Episcopal church and the wickedness they are yoked with.


I'm by no means an expert, but I think it is only a small handful of Episcopals that have women or homosexual priests/bishops. The ones I know are sound, aside from the infant baptisim or course.
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No absurdity at all. None of the things which you list change worship to God at all. Again, mechanical instruments do. The Bible does not authorize them. We are commanded to sing and that is all that we should do. I have often wandered why we think that God doesn't know what He wants and what He doesn't. If He tells us what He wants, should we not simply give Him that and leave other things off?

By the way, Ez.ra stood in a pulpit in Nehemiah 8:4. That doesn't say podium but pulpit/podium....same thing. Of course that was not in the 1st century church either....


Who says it has to? It certainly doesn't forbid them.
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Who says it has to? It certainly doesn't forbid them.



God says it has to. Heb 7:12-14 teaches us that authority is required. Vs 12 reads, "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Why? Read the rest of this passage. Because there was no authority for someone of the tribe of Judah to be a Priest....notice that the Hebrew writer affirms the fact that it was not explicitly forbidden that a man of the tribe of Judah could serve since the tribe of Judah was never discussed in relation to the priesthood.

Col 3:17 tells us that whatever we do we are to do in the name of the Lord or by His authority. He has not given us such authority.

I might add that faith comes from God's word (Rom 10:17). Something that is not in His Word is not by faith

I would also suggest you read Lev 10:1-2 and notice that Nadab and Abihu were destroyed because they offered strange (UNAUTHORIZED) fire. What are we offerening that is UNAUTHORIZED?

We could also study King Saul and his sacrifices to the Lord in 1 Sam 13. God was not pleased with him there. In 1 Sam 15 Saul claimed that he and the people were going to offer of the animals which he had brought back. Notice what Samuel said in verse 22. Nothing we have to offer is better than what God asks for.
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The first century church did not use mechanical instruments.


Get the latex gloves...this guy can't make up his mind. In the same town, there are two "Churches of Christ" one offers no musical instruments while the other has a regular piano and other instruments for special music.

COCs need to get their story straight.
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Get the latex gloves...this guy can't make up his mind. In the same town, there are two "Churches of Christ" one offers no musical instruments while the other has a regular piano and other instruments for special music.

COCs need to get their story straight.


One might be the United Churches of Christ, the other one, the church of Christ, if so, they be different. First Christin Churches hold to much of the beliefs of the churches of Christ, but they have music instruments. Freewill Baptist hold to many of them as well.

Not defending, trying to keep the record strait. I've never seen a 'church of Christ' with music instruments.




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Musical instruments were certainly authorized in the worship of God in the OT. The entire chapter of 1 Chronicles 25 talks about who was appointed to play various instruments in the house of God. 1 Chronicles 23:5, 2 Chronicles 5:13, 2 Chronicles 7:6, Psalm 33:2, Psalm: 150 etc. all speak of instruments being used in the worship of God. Unless you can show that there was some reason for that to change in the NT the practice stands as completely biblical. Biblically we know all sorts of musical instruments were used in the OT in the worship of God and in Revelation harps are specifically mentioned as being used in heaven. I can't imagine what the reasoning behind thinking that God does not want Christians using instruments in his worship is. It must be pretty convoluted.

Edited by Seth-Doty
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Get the latex gloves...this guy can't make up his mind. In the same town, there are two "Churches of Christ" one offers no musical instruments while the other has a regular piano and other instruments for special music.

COCs need to get their story straight.


I can't speak of anyone in your town. What I can say is that the 1st century church did not use mechanical instrument. Neither did the 2nd Century church. The 3rd Century church did not......It wasn't until around 1000 that the Catholic church (obviously they had already fell away in other ways.) added Mechanical instruments. What I can say is that the NT does not authorize it.


Are there those who fall away from the truth? Certainly there are those who do. We would not have the Catholic church or any other denomination if they did not, but any sound congregation will not use mechanical instruments.
Each person is free to make us his or her own mind for him/herself. Each of us will have to answer for our choices and will be judged by the word (John 12:48). I choose to worship the Lord as He has set forth.
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Musical instruments were certainly authorized in the worship of God in the OT. The entire chapter of 1 Chronicles 25 talks about who was appointed to play various instruments in the house of God. 1 Chronicles 23:5, 2 Chronicles 5:13, 2 Chronicles 7:6, Psalm 33:2, Psalm: 150 etc. all speak of instruments being used in the worship of God. Unless you can show that there was some reason for that to change in the NT the practice stands as completely biblical. Biblically we know all sorts of musical instruments were used in the OT in the worship of God and in Revelation harps are specifically mentioned as being used in heaven. I can't imagine what the reasoning behind thinking that God does not want Christians using instruments in his worship is. It must be pretty convoluted.


Why Seth, if you have to go to the OT to get mechanical instruments, why do you not bring forth animal sacrifices as well? They were authorized under the OT as well. I trust that you do not call for animal sacrifices though. Just remember that we are not under the OT any longer. Col 2:14 tells us that it was nailed to the cross. Yes, it is there for our learning (Rom 15:4), but we do not worship in the same manner. We live under the NT.

As for Revelation, it is symbolic and you are mistaken as to it being clear that there will be mechanical instruments in heaven.

You don't have to understand God's reasoning since He is much smarter than you are; you just have to obey Him. We all do.
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Why Seth, if you have to go to the OT to get mechanical instruments, why do you not bring forth animal sacrifices as well? They were authorized under the OT as well. I trust that you do not call for animal sacrifices though.


We would, except that the NT makes it clear that the sacrifices were only for a picture of things to come and that Christs sacrifice ended the requirement to offer animals.


Just remember that we are not under the OT any longer. Col 2:14 tells us that it was nailed to the cross. Yes, it is there for our learning (Rom 15:4), but we do not worship in the same manner. We live under the NT.


Can you give one single NT reason why instrumental music should not be used today? Obviously it can't be wrong in and of itself or else those OT verses talking about using it to praise God would not be there. Your only possible avenue would be to show from the NT that that aspect of worship has changed and it is no longer acceptable. There isn't a single thing that would imply that.

As for Revelation, it is symbolic and you are mistaken as to it being clear that there will be mechanical instruments in heaven.


"Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:"

"Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Doesn't look symbolic to me, and even if it were, why would such "symbolism" be used if it were improper to use such instruments in praise of God?

You don't have to understand God's reasoning since He is much smarter than you are; you just have to obey Him. We all do.


Granted, but you have not established that not using musical instruments is a command of God. What scriptures there are on the subject would point the other way actually.

A Simple Question: Is it a sin not to use mechanical instruments in worship service?


No, it isn't wrong "not" to use them, if that were the only problem with the COC I wouldn't take to much issue with them. I would just consider it a odd belief not substantiated or even indicated in any way by scripture but one that was relatively harmless. The most serious problem with the COC is that they add works to grace for salvation.
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A simple answer to your question, no, yet, the other is of more importance.


Silly of you to bring up sacrifices, grace come in, and of course animal sacrifices never saved no one, that is impossible, yet there was a sacrifice, that being Jesus, and its all about Jesus, He gets all the glory.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

Only Jesus, the blood of Jesus, can take away the sin.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Its so easy, yet Christ is a stumbling block for many, they just can't seem to believe that Jesus is enough, that salvation is only in Jesus, they just feel they have to add something to it.

Salvation only come by grace thought faith in Jesus, not of works, not of self, its a gift. And even John 3:18 and 3:36 makes it so clear, he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, he that doesn't does not. No baptizing there, and never in the Bible does it require baptizing to be saved.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Even this verse is plain, he that believeth shall not be damned. think, its says he that believeth not shall be damned, not he that is not baptized shall be damned, only he that believeth not. Yet there is more.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Clearly, he that confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, nothing about baptizing, its pointing to only Jesus, its all about Him.

Them there is this verse:


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)
Nothing about baptizing, yet he that calls on the Lord, shall be saved.


Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32

Who ever confess Jesus before men, nothing whatsoever about baptizing.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20 (KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17 (KJV)

Yes, Christ will stand at the door of a mans heart, yet he will not come in unless He is asked, and its not by baptizing, Jesus just says come, come and believe.
Yes, seems so many just start stumbling when it come to just trusting Christ, they sense they have to do something, add just a bit to it, and refuse to believe, refuse to place all that faith into Christ, and Him alone. Yes, Jesus has a wonderful gift to offer whosoever, will just accept it, He only ask they you believe on Him, trust and obey.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)

Yes, so simple, believe on Him, that is all it takes, its not about works, its about Jesus, He is enough, and it be only Him that can save a soul from the depths of hell.
Yes, there is one and only one way to the Father, Christ tells us its though Him alone, John 16:6. not through Him plus water baptism, just Him alone. One can only trust and obey Him, and when they do, they will know the moment it happens, the moment the Holy Ghost enters their body, 1 Corinthians 6:19. And they will never be the same, not after they realize the love Jesus has given them by dying upon that cross that they may have:

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Life more abundantly, and that life is before those who have Jesus as their Savior. Oh how we have so much to look forward to, and its due to one that can save us from our sins, if we will just trust Him and accept the free gift.

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One might be the United Churches of Christ, the other one, the church of Christ, if so, they be different. First Christin Churches hold to much of the beliefs of the churches of Christ, but they have music instruments. Freewill Baptist hold to many of them as well.

Not defending, trying to keep the record strait. I've never seen a 'church of Christ' with music instruments.

Also, if the CoC are like the IFB in that they are not a denomination but separate, independent churches as are the IFB, one can't proclaim they don't have their story straight because they don't all agree on all points any more than all IFB churches don't agree on all points.
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