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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Surogates? - Pastors and Scholars Please Read and Advise

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futurehope
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To say that because my womb is closed that I may not be "meant to have children" is saying that an HIV positive crack whore pregnant with her 6th is IS meant to be a mother.

And I am assuming that all of you that believe it is to be left to God to open or shut a womb does not use any preventative measures (birth control, tubes tied, etc). Considering that, by this reasoning, doing so would be against His will as He will shut your (your wife's) womb when He is ready for you to no longer have children.




The same as a person who doesn't accept cancer as a death sentence and seeks treatment. "Man's ways" are to use chemo and radiation. Does that make it wrong for a person to reject God's plan of death and use medicine? Ultimately it is God's decision but I don't see it as being wrong to everything within our power to live.

No one said that there was anything wrong with trying to treat a disease; but to take the matter of conception outside of the confines of marriage and the way that God designed things, is wrong.

I think the most important thing is to make sure that we pray for His will. Each step of our infertility journey has been covered in prayer. And not prayer that our will be done, but His. The scariest story in the Bible to me is Rachel demanding children "lest she die". She never once asked what God wanted of her only that she get what she wanted. She got what she wanted and died in the process. And then there was Sarah who followed her will and we all know what happened there. Exactly the point! She tried to go about it her own way because she lacked the faith to have patience and trust that God would keep His promise. Sarah was the type of woman that in today's world would have been running to the clinic to start working on IVF or surrogacy. So, since we all DO know what happened their, why should women follow in her footsteps?We ask God that He guide our steps and that we do His will. I ask him daily that if His will is for us to remain childless that He give me the strength to accept it and to remove this desire from me. If it is His will for us to have children we ask that He show us the way and show us if we are going down the wrong path. We are planning on doing IVF (not with a surrogate) and we ask Him to only give us a child if it is His will. If we conceive then how do you explain that?
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Annie, seriously, can we at least make arguments for or against this that actually apply and not stretch things far beyond what they actually mean?

How is this stretching things? You have pulled from thin air the idea that since the Bible doesn't mention any other options, God designed only ONE way for babies to be conceived and born. Scripture nowhere asserts your idea. Maybe I've misunderstood; I want to give you a chance to clarify. What Scriptures lead you to believe that a baby MUST be conceived only through the act of sex, then MUST develop in his own mother's womb? Yes, I know that references scattered throughout Scripture indicate that this is the normal, natural way, which is obvious to everybody...Nobody's saying that surrogacy is normal or natural. You are saying that, since surrogacy is not the "natural, normal" way--the way, as you say, that "God designed" childbirth--it goes against God's will. All I did was to take your logic and use it in other arguments to show that it doesn't hold water. Just because something is not "normal" or "natural" doesn't stop you from doing it.

Your main argument has been that since God is in control, we'd better not mess with that by taking our own action. My point all along has been that we take action all the time in life issues, even though, indeed, God is in control. Your arguments are not consistent with the way you live, if you approve of taking medicine and having surgery and undergoing organ transplants (which are mentioned nowhere in the Bible--do they then go against God's design?).


You missed the point. You're concerned about "God's design." You are hung up on the idea that "God did not design" for babies to be conceived this way (even though you haven't given Scriptural support for that idea). My point here is that God's "design" goes far beyond the mere location and events of conception and pregnancy. God's biological design--the way He designed that life be created--is that a baby be conceived by a father and a mother, a sperm cell and an egg cell, to form offspring that adds to the family unit. No one can argue with this. This truth is what makes cloning wrong.


I'm missing your meaning here. Of course love and intimacy is a part of conceiving a child. But love and intimacy, as you know, do not guarantee conception. And...if I may be crass for a moment...anyone who has had to "try" to get pregnant the natural way knows that love and intimacy often elude them at the prescribed times.

An orgy? Do you know what an orgy is? I doubt the parents, doctor, and/or surrogate mother are acting with wildly unbridled passions and lust. I fail to see any connection here. You have ignored the motives and purposes of what you are describing.

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Futurehope,
If a soldier in Iraq, gets both legs blown off, and doctor's are able to fit him with bionic or prosthetic legs, is that OK with you? How about if your father or mother's only chance for survival is an artificial heart?
What if you need a pacemaker? What if you can't eliminate normally and must have a catheter or colostomy? Are those things normal? Let me ask you: Are drugs and medicines a "normal" thing for your body? I don't think so. But I don't see any rebuke from the Lord here, against what doctors do...when you NEED it.

Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

I think that, by far, the most miraculous thing about "procreation is the meeting of the wife's egg and the husband's sperm. Like I said before, not being able to conceive 'normally" is a medical problem. But, if you can procreate normally, praise God, you don't NEED a physician.

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Annie and Heartstrings:

The point is that neither of you are looking at this for what it is. You are trying to compare taking medicine with playing God to determine the point in time a life will begin. Yes, I am well aware that God could stop that life from beginning, but He could also stop the murderer from killing; just because He doesn't intervene doesn't meen it is within His will. Neither of you seem to have the ability or determination to trust God to provide life, but believe it is something we should have the power and authority to take it into our own hands. Both of you have brought in examples that have nothing to do with the topic and tried to blanket all medical practices with what John and I have stated.

Annie, for someone who claims to know their bible so well, I find it hard to believe that you actually think masturbation is not sin...but I have heard of more rediculous things. Even the most disgusting and vile people know that it is sin, so I won't waste my time posting the scripture as I'm pretty sure you are already fully aware of it. As for the "orgy" comment: at it's very root, it involves several people entering into group sexual acts that are to be left between a husband and wife; just like conception should be left there.

Bottom line, you've both been given the biblical examples, and ignore them to your own desires. Yes, what is "normal" is what should be done. I think the bible makes it very clear that doing what is "natural" is appropriate and going outside of that is almost always sin. I know understanding this requires the use of a little logic, but it's probably worth your time to be a little logical before chasing after your own wishes, wills, and desires.

God's design is perfect, it is us that is corrupt, but He is still able to use us in our corrupt state to do His will. If a woman is truly praying for God to give her a child, but won't sit still long enough and be patient long enough for God to provide that miracle, she isn't showing any real faith, but simply an "I want" conversation with God. I'll make this clear one last time: I have no problem with "treatments" of a disease that prevents a woman from conceiving, I do have a problem with IVF and surrogacy and the reasons are obvious. If you want to treat a disease, do it; but don't try to take the power or authority to give life into your own hands. With the logic you all are trying to apply, it's okay to clone, and kill, because the mysteries of how to do it have been unlocked. Sound foolish? So does a woman who claims to have faith taking matters out of God's hands and into her own (or a doctor's).

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The point is that neither of you are looking at this for what it is. You are trying to compare taking medicine with playing God to determine the point in time a life will begin.

Isn't that what humans do all the time? God has obviously given humans the ability to choose in this area. Conception REQUIRES human action; it is not "all God."

Annie, for someone who claims to know their bible so well, I find it hard to believe that you actually think masturbation is not sin...but I have heard of more rediculous things. Even the most disgusting and vile people know that it is sin, so I won't waste my time posting the scripture as I'm pretty sure you are already fully aware of it.

First, when and where did I "claim to know my Bible so well?" I hope I would never be so prideful as to claim that I know everything about the Bible. Such a claim would be ludicrous in the extreme. And, I did not say that masturbation is not sin. I just asked you, "Is it?" and then asked for Scripture on that topic. You have evaded that question with rhetoric instead of answering it directly. And, no, I am not aware of any Scripture that addresses masturbation. If you know of one or more passages, please tell me about them.

Bottom line, you've both been given the biblical examples, and ignore them to your own desires. Yes, what is "normal" is what should be done. I think the bible makes it very clear that doing what is "natural" is appropriate and going outside of that is almost always sin. I know understanding this requires the use of a little logic, but it's probably worth your time to be a little logical before chasing after your own wishes, wills, and desires.

With all due respect, this is just more rhetoric. Where does the Bible "make it very clear that doing what is natural is appropriate and going outside of that is almost (almost???) always sin"? If this is indeed very clear in Scripture, then you would abstain from using anything unnatural (like surgery, transplants, processed foods, synthetic materials--the list goes on and on) in your life, or you would be sinning. It seems to me that it is your logic, not mine, that needs shoring up. First, there is no biblical basis for what you have asserted. Second, your logic doesn't make sense, for the reasons I've been mentioning. Third, you don't even live by what you have asserted (that doing anything unnatural is sin).

With the logic you all are trying to apply, it's okay to clone, and kill, because the mysteries of how to do it have been unlocked.

I will repeat, this is not at all what I'm saying. I'm not saying it is OK to do fertility treatments BECAUSE the mysteries have been unlocked. What I am saying is that we can use modern advances in medicine, technology, communication, etc., UNLESS it goes against Scripture. We can use the Internet, but we can't look at porn. We can enjoy television, but not every program. We can take advantage of modern medicine, but some things are off limits (like abortion, cloning, euthanasia, etc.). What you have failed to show from Scripture is why surrogacy is off limits. (I have already acknowledged that if embryos are destroyed, then obviously there are problems.)
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Good posts Futurehope.

The thing is, the Bible is clear with regards to the sanctity of life, who is to control the womb, etc. There is plenty in the Bible to support that we are not to attempt to prevent life, God has put forth one means for life to be perpetuated and He has stated clearly that's to be His domain.

There is no biblical basis for preventing life or for producing life in an unbiblical manner.

We can either accept the Word of God, or we can go with the many non-biblical arguments. As for me and my house, we choose to accept the Word of God.

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I hope no one here every has to deal with infertility or has a friend or family member have this problem .

Its painfully clear that its still a taboo topic and that the people facing it will not get the support they need .
They will instead be told that its "God's Will " or to be content etc ...

Its like a death and people who have family die are surely not told to deal with it and get over it .

Infertility = death the death of dreams and hopes

I am sorry that those who have it are never understood and treated kindly but instead told how wrong they are

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Good posts Futurehope.

The thing is, 1 the Bible is clear with regards to the sanctity of life, 2 who is to control the womb, etc. 3 There is plenty in the Bible to support that we are not to attempt to prevent life, 4 God has put forth one means for life to be perpetuated and 5 He has stated clearly that's to be His domain.

6 There is no biblical basis for preventing life or for producing life in an unbiblical manner.

We can either accept the Word of God, or we can go with the many non-biblical arguments. As for me and my house, we choose to accept the Word of God.


You make six statements here without showing the scripture to back them up.
By all means, show us what the word of God says on each statement.

But on statement 6........
Nobody here is advocating "producing life"; man cannot "produce life"/
And who here is advocating "preventing life? Are you arguing against "birth control" now?

There is no biblical basis for preventing life or for producing life in an unbiblical manner.
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You make six statements here without showing the scripture to back them up.
By all means, show us what the word of God says on each statement.

But on statement 6........
Nobody here is advocating "producing life"; man cannot "produce life"/
And who here is advocating "preventing life? Are you arguing against "birth control" now?



knowing John, he fully support quiver full (like the Duggars). Some catholics don't believe in birth control either.

But anyway, I do believe we should be content what we can and can not do too (and some people case is not able to have children). I can't always be upset that I have limits because of my deafness. People tell me all the time "oh, you should be glad you are deaf because there are some things I wish I didn't have to hear".

I have a hearing child and it is VERY frustrating to raise him as a hearing person. Why? because people have a high standard on how a hearing person should talk, write, act, etc. Plus, he can hear things that I can't. But I can do it. I just can't be upset with God for restricting my communication, even with my own child. Nor be upset with other people because they have their own opinion . Even Parents with deaf kids have to deal with comments that hurt them. People would tell them that they should accept their kid is deaf and don't attempt to make them hearing-- meaning no hearing aids, no cochlear implant, nothing.. just teach him sign languages. Others think they should force their child to communicate with hearing people so he can be part of their culture and have good jobs (which I think this is untrue.. the result is usually the same no matter which direction you go). Being genetically deaf, it is really scary for me to have another child, wondering if my children will be deaf too. Not that it is bad to have deaf kids, it is the responsibility that go with it that can be overwhelming. Being scared to pass your genetic traits to your kids (and deciding if you should not have them no matter how badly you want them) is just as frustrating as not able to have kids.. and top of it all, you have people tellling you NOT to have kids.

I can relate somewhat about it.
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Isn't that what humans do all the time? God has obviously given humans the ability to choose in this area. Conception REQUIRES human action; it is not "all God."

Yes, people do this all the time, but that doesn't make it right. Yes, He has given us the ability to choose - we either choose right or wrong...you have chosen to support sin. Yes, human action is required - whether to sin or not, there is human action.


First, when and where did I "claim to know my Bible so well?" I hope I would never be so prideful as to claim that I know everything about the Bible. Such a claim would be ludicrous in the extreme. And, I did not say that masturbation is not sin. I just asked you, "Is it?" and then asked for Scripture on that topic. You have evaded that question with rhetoric instead of answering it directly. And, no, I am not aware of any Scripture that addresses masturbation. If you know of one or more passages, please tell me about them.

Most of your posts are rather prideful as to the understanding of God's word and thinking that you have understanding. So, do you or don't you believe masturbation is sin?


With all due respect, this is just more rhetoric. Where does the Bible "make it very clear that doing what is natural is appropriate and going outside of that is almost (almost???) always sin"? If this is indeed very clear in Scripture, then you would abstain from using anything unnatural (like surgery, transplants, processed foods, synthetic materials--the list goes on and on) in your life, or you would be sinning. It seems to me that it is your logic, not mine, that needs shoring up. First, there is no biblical basis for what you have asserted. Second, your logic doesn't make sense, for the reasons I've been mentioning. Third, you don't even live by what you have asserted (that doing anything unnatural is sin).

Romans 1

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another
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Yes' date=' people do this all the time, but that doesn't make it right. Yes, He has given us the ability to choose - we either choose right or wrong...you have chosen to support sin. Yes, human action is required - whether to sin or not, there is human action.[/quote']

Futurehope, I think you missed my meaning here. The fact is that conception is not "all God." Humans must act in order for a baby to be conceived. Their action (intercourse--->union of sperm and egg) is indeed necessary in order for a new life to begin. If they did not act, a new life most certainly would not begin. Therefore, since humans know "how babies are made," they have been created with the ability to choose either to act or not to act in order to produce life. Humans do have a choice in the matter of procreation (whether to act or not to act). I don't see how you can deny this. God doesn't work outside of man's actions on this one. (There is, of course, one notable Exception.) That is all I was saying.


Futurehope, it grieves me to think that something in my attitude here has given you the idea that I think I "know it all" when it comes to God's Word. Could you point me to a specific example, so that I may evaluate your assertion here?

Regarding masturbation, you have come out strongly against it, without giving Scriptural support. I have made no assertions either way (and I must admit I'm a bit curious why you are trying to pin me down on this one when you are the one making the assertions). I merely asked for that support. Your hesitancy in providing it makes me wonder if you know why you think it is a sinful behavior. I am certainly not interested in having a prolonged discussion about it, here, in mixed company, especially when it doesn't have much to do with the discussion.

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Futurehope, it appears to me that we are not making any progress in this discussion partly because we do not understand each other. For example, for the life of me, I cannot understand what you mean by "natural." I thought I did, but now I realize I don't. If you mean "as nature intended," then logic would dictate that you would "let nature take its course" in all things (including sickness, death, pregnancy complications, etc.) if you are to be consistent. But you don't (or at least I don't think you do). So, that's one aspect of the discussion that has me scratching my head.

Another aspect of this discussion is the "human control" element. You have not addressed that (in your last response to my post on that matter). So, that's another loose end hanging. I think it's an important one.

And, as I've said before, your unwillingness to post Scripture about your other assertion (about the specifics of the fertility treatment process) also has me puzzled. I'm not sure why you need me to make "a statement" before backing up your assertion with Scripture, especially when you are the one who introduced that topic in the first place. It appears to me (I could be wrong) that you are hoping that I will disagree with you, so you can "play a trump card" and say, "Aha! You're wrong. Look at this!" I've already told you that I'm unaware of any Scripture dealing with that topic...That was your cue to say, "Have you considered this one?" Your hesitancy to do so is, as I said, puzzling, and seems to indicate vulnerability in your position. If you want to keep talking about it, post the Scripture, and we'll discuss it. Otherwise, I really don't have anything more to say about it.

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If and how many children we have is up to the LORD> I don't say this to hurt anyone having problems having a child but thru prayer the Lord provides children! in Christ's love pixiedust




How does prayer provide children from the Lord ?

I have prayed and even been anointed yet I have none .

Not trying to be rude I just don't see how you have come up with that statement .
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How does prayer provide children from the Lord ?

I have prayed and even been anointed yet I have none .

Not trying to be rude I just don't see how you have come up with that statement .


There are many factors in this, including our faith and the Lord's timing. Consider how long various women in the Bible prayed for children before the Lord gave them a child.

The Lord answers prayers for children as He does all prayer, first of all it must be within His will to provide what is asked for and second, it must be in His perfect timing.

The Lord has various reasons for seeming to delay in answering. It may be a matter of growing ones faith, of bringing one to fully trust in the Lord, it may have to do with when the perfect time is for receiving the answer, it may have something to do with what the Lord knows one will have to go through between the time of the request and the answer, or a myriad of other things.

In the end, it basically comes down to us putting our full faith and trust in God, which is what He desires. If we truly pray that His will be done we can rest assured that whatever His will is, it's perfect and right in all ways.

LAF, I do pray the Lord will provide you with the answers you seek and that He would grant you peace, comfort and strength with wisdom.
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