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I believe the "man child" is the saved remnant (144,0000) during the tribulation raptured out perhaps midway. They too shall rule with a rod of iron.

Isaiah 66:7,8:

[7] Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[8] Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Rev. 2:26,27:

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus Christ was never in danger of being gobbled up by the red dragon. The whole passage is in the context of the Great Tribulation not the first coming of Christ.


That is a novel interpretation. The red dragon used Herod to try to gobble up Jesus.

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That is a novel interpretation. The red dragon used Herod to try to gobble up Jesus.


I disagree with Wilchbla on this one; I think that chapter twelve is a parenthetical chapter describing the various characters in Revelation. I think the Manchild is Christ, and the dragon tries to kill him at the First Advent with Herod and then Him being caught up to Heaven is His ascension.

Revelation 2:26-27 is a good thought, but Revelation 12 speaks of the Manchild as being singular, it seems more like it would be Christ alone than anything else.

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I've seen this on other boards. First you tolerate them because you want a "lively debate" or because they are "nice folks who love Jesus just like you" and you don't want to be harsh or "unchristian" then the next thing you know it they run the board and you find yourself being rebuke on a board that holds the same doctrinial statement as you do. Happens in churches and happens in bible forums.


That is the sobering truth isn't it. If firm lines are not drawn on important doctrinal matters truth is usually diluted over time and before you know it you have nearly as much error as truth which in turn attracts more error and slowly drives out the truth that remains.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

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Thanks for everyones responses. I often don't care to debate because then it is just a matter of 2 sides trying to win an argument. Often it ends up bringing no glory God. I like this forum because for the most part the doctrinal views of most fall in line with mine. I can try to help others that come here with sincere questions and not have to worry about every thread becoming a debate. I just want to make sure that the doctrinal norm of this forum is not changing.

To answer covenanter, on his radio show Hank compared those that hold the theological views of a pretrib dispensationalism to being like Nazis. If I was smart I would have downloaded the podcast. This was a while ago when his book came out about this topic which I happen to own. By the way, you know his is strongly opposed to Calvinism, right? ;)

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Rick, can you show me all the scripture you can think of supporting the Pre-trib rapture? Also, Is you view possible without Da 9:27 referring to The Anti-Christ; because, I don't believe that it is referring to The Antichrist.

Covenanter, Can you explain Re 1:7, Mt 24:30, 1Th 4:14-17, Lu 17:23-24. Your view has had really good points; I also believe some of Matthew 24 is regarding the temple; but, without at least these verses explained I don't see it possible how i can hold your view.

I'm still leaning towards what I will be posting below. However I need to Investigate it more. I decided to re-edit it back in because if there is something wrong with it you all might find it.

I intend to put all my words in blue and put Nathaniel: (In case someone is color blind; though sometimes the words aren't entirely mine. I learned this from a sermon of someone who was in a similar boat as me previously. Though I'm not 100% sure on all the person's end times ideas. However his ideas on Matthew 24 seemed solid.

I don't understand everything but, I'll do the best to show most of my view from what is often called the Olivet Discourse.
I think the a key to understanding the difference between the past and future of Matthew 24 is:

These things - 70 AD
That day - end times

With that in mind if you read this i think the result lines up with scripture.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mt 23:34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (Nathaniel: Notice these things also notice this generation)
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Nathaniel: I believe the house he is talking about is the temple. If you look by decree who made the house desolate? Da 9:27, Lu 21:22 Theres a good article here http://biblicaltruth...%20Scans%29.htm on the 70 weeks of Daniel. (this isn't the person I was referring to earlier)
Mt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Nathaniel: I believe this verse shows that they aren't part of spiritual Israel until they believe then they are graffed back in)
Mt 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Nathaniel: Notice these things seems to reference the temple)
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Nathaniel: Notice there seems to be two questions when these things shall be and his coming and the end of the world.)
Mt 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Nathaniel: This seems to be a overview/outline of what he will expound on now. Unless the gospel has been preached to all nations which could be possible if you reference Mr 16:20. The end would then be referring to temple because of Mt 24:27, 1Th 4:14-17, I don't see those things happening in 70 AD.)
Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Nathaniel: Reference to Daniel 9 and Lu 21:20.)
Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (Nathaniel: Reference Lu 21:23-24 and Ro 11:25)
Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (Nathaniel: Notice we changed to then (after the great tribulation)
Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Nathaniel: Notice the change from these days to those days which I believe is now talking about also. Now if you read again Lu 21:23-24 then go further to Luke 21:25. That the fulness of the gentiles must come first.)
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (Nathaniel: Notice it was then for quite awhile and now it said Now.)
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Nathaniel: This generation look at these verses Mt 23:33-36. Also notice these things)
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Nathaniel: Now notice that day)
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Nathaniel: Lets look at Luke 17 below)

Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Lu 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Nathaniel: Who is they? Isn't it the wicked? Noah knew the flood came. Noah was left on the earth the bad people were taken away and destroyed. reference with 1Th 5:2-9)
Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (Nathaniel: It seems it will be similar to the days of Noah, however the Noah was righteous and wasn't taken away from the flood he was in the ark. He was left behind.)
Lu 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Lu 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Nathaniel: It seems they asked where they were taken. reference with Re 19:17-26 and Mt 24:28)

(For quicker reference and comparison Luke 21:5-36 below.)

Lu 21:5 ¶ And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Lu 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Lu 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Lu 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Lu 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Lu 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Lu 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Lu 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Lu 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Lu 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Lu 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Lu 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Lu 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Lu 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Lu 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Lu 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Lu 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Lu 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Lu 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lu 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Lu 21:29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Lu 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lu 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Lu 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Lu 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Edited by Nathaniel

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Seems like they have pretty much taken over in this forum. I've seen this on other boards. First you tolerate them because you want a "lively debate" or because they are "nice folks who love Jesus just like you" and you don't want to be harsh or "unchristian" then the next thing you know it they run the board and you find yourself being rebuke on a board that holds the same doctrinial statement as you do. Happens in churches and happens in bible forums. Nothing new under the sun.


I am IFB. I was Dispensational when I joined, I just found some things that didn't seem to line up. I already am different than the world, I certainly didn't want to be different from lots of my fellow believers. Surely if I could see Dispensationalism in scripture I wouldn't have changed. Umm, if its a problem I hold a different end times view. I'll leave if it is necessary. Lots of you have been a great help so far. I looked back at when I first posted here on the introduction board. It is truly amazing how the Lord has helped me so far! I don't want to a burden as, I can't promise I will never post on the subject. So.. If The mods/Bromatt or the majority of you all see me as a problem I'll go. Edited by Nathaniel

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I am IFB. I was Dispensational when I joined, I just found some things that didn't seem to line up. I already am different than the world, I certainly didn't want to be different from lots of my fellow believers. Surely if I could see Dispensationalism in scripture I wouldn't have changed. Umm, if its a problem I hold a different end times view. I'll leave if it is necessary. Lots of you have been a great help so far. I looked back at when I first posted here on the introduction board. It is truly amazing how the Lord has helped me so far! I don't want to a burden as, I can't promise I will never post on the subject. So.. If The mods/Bromatt or the majority of you all see me as a problem I'll go.

Dispensational teaching has never been accepted by all Baptists or by all Christians. As I posted previously...In looking into various aspects of this I found it interesting that C. H. Spurgeon stood against Dispensationalist teachings. At one point Spurgeon commented that Darby's writings were "too mystical" and that if Darby were to "write in plain English his readers would probably discover that there is nothing very valuable in his remarks."

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Dispensational teaching has never been accepted by all Baptists or by all Christians. As I posted previously...In looking into various aspects of this I found it interesting that C. H. Spurgeon stood against Dispensationalist teachings. At one point Spurgeon commented that Darby's writings were "too mystical" and that if Darby were to "write in plain English his readers would probably discover that there is nothing very valuable in his remarks."


Yes, I read some things Spurgeon said about J.N Darby, they were interesting. Edited by Nathaniel

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Rick, can you show me all the scripture you can think of supporting the Pre-trib rapture? Also, Is you view possible without Da 9:27 referring to The Anti-Christ; because, I don't believe that it is referring to The Antichrist.


First of all, in this conversation it's a major step to even believe in a future Tribulation at all. If you don't, then you're a Preterist or Amillennial, or something like that. If you do, then you're a futurist. Please understand that before I proceed. I say that because both of your questions are actually in house debates amongst Futurists. I know futurists that disagree on the answers to both of those questions but still believe in a future Rapture of the church and a future Tribulation period. You don't have to agree with my answer to understand that the events in Revelation are still future.

Scriptures for pre-Trib?

Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

The Philadelphian church was promised to be spared from the hour of temptation that would come upon the entire Earth. I believe that you can make a solid case that this promise is not limited to one local church located in Asia Minor, but that it is a promise to the church as a whole. When you read this verse, ask yourself these questions: At what time in history was the entire Earth tried - not just Christians? What time period is Revelation talking about? Do you believe that this promise can only apply to the one church, or could it apply to the church as a whole for a specific future event?

Jeremiah 30:7, “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

The whole point of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to God. It's called the "Jacob's Trouble" for that very reason. There's no point for the church to go into it, and furthermore the church isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 until she comes back with the Lord at Armageddon.

I Thessalonians 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The wrath to come is a future event - it's "to come," it's not here right now like Hell is. Some use this to say that we're rapture out in the middle of the Tribulation, but they ignore all the wrath in the first 3 1/2 years to do it.

Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Our hope is in Jesus Christ's return. That is what we're supposed to be looking forward to. If we're to endure any part of the Tribulation, we'd be stupid and foolish to not be preparing for it. The Bible says we're worse than in infidel if we don't take care of our own - and yet there is no command in Scripture for us to prepare for the Tribulation. We're told to anxiously await Christ's return.


Who broke the covenant in Daniel 9:27?

Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

1. Whoever is confirming the Covenant does it for a week. That means there was a specific time period in which it began and a specific time period in which it was supposed to end. One week, or seven years.

2. In the middle of the week, whoever confirmed this covenant also stops it. He makes the sacrifices stop after three and one half years.

3. Here's the kicker: whoever does this, according to this verse, also makes the place desolate. It's not Christ, because Christ told the people about this very thing in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:15-16, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Whoever this is, when the Jews see it happen, and they all do - they are told to run for the hills. The same person to makes the covenant with Israel is the same person to breaks it and then desolates the temple. It's not the high priest, it's not Antiochus Epiphanies, it's not Hitler, it's not God or Christ - it's someone we haven't seen yet.

Is. 28:15, 18, "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

"18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

I believe this covenant is with a future Antichrist, and it is called the covenant with death and Hell. It is signified also as the fourth Seal:

Rev. 6:7-8, "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say , Come and see.
8) And I looked , and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

The events for the first three seals describe the first three years of the Tribulation and this Seal is the middle of it, describing the time in which the Antichrist will declare himself to be God - something in which no High Priest did back in 70 A.D.

II Thess. 2:3-8, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

This Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ returns. Hasn't happened yet.

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My insertions
I'm going out now to a performance of"Jephtha" by Hounslow Baroque. [Anything but CCM!]
Beautiful music - but 12 performers & 12 audience. Everyone else missed a treat. They included Bach "Sheep may safely graze" & "Jesu, joy of man's desiring."


Rick, can you show me all the scripture you can think of supporting the Pre-trib rapture? Also, Is you view possible without Da 9:27 referring to The Anti-Christ; because, I don't believe that it is referring to The Antichrist.

I believe the 70 weeks ended when the Jews were declared "uncircumcised" by Stephen, & the Gospel was opened to uncircumcised Gentiles. (Cornelius.) About 3½ years or ½ a week after the cross, when Messiah was cut off.

Covenanter, Can you explain Re 1:7, Mt 24:30, 1Th 4:14-17, Lu 17:23-24. Your view has had really good points; I also believe some of Matthew 24 is regarding the temple; but, without at least these verses explained I don't see it possible how i can hold your view.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Those verses are obviously linked, & I won't fall out with anyone who sees the second coming there. However John sees the fulfillment of the piercing as occurring at the cross. (John 19:34-37)

Jesus was condemned for claiming the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven for himself. (Mat 26:64) In that context it referrred to his ascension, as seen by Daniel:

Dan 7:13 ¶ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Those who condemned him would see him, whom they refused to see with understanding. They saw him through Stephen's eyes, and stopped their ears. They would "see" him when his Olivet prophecy was perfectly fulfilled a generation later. His "coming" would be like that prophesied by Micah:

Mic 1:1 ¶ The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 ¶ Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

In AD 70 Jesus proves his ascension by fulfilling his prophecy against those who condemned him.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dead believers are asleep in Jesus. Asleep, dead, as far as we are concerned, but enjoying the presence of Jesus in heaven - living & reigning with him. They will be resurrected, & we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15) What disps teach is the rapture, we understand as the resurrection. Which word is Scriptural?

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I have no quarrel with those who see that as the second coming, when all, good & wicked, alive & dead, will see Jesus coming in glory.

It need not mean that. The Jewish Christians saw the signs, & fled the city. The martyrs in heaven saw Jesus vindicated by his judgment.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Note that Jesus had prophesied:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


I'm still leaning towards what I will be posting below. However I need to Investigate it more. I decided to re-edit it back in because if there is something wrong with it you all might find it.

I intend to put all my words in blue and put Nathaniel: (In case someone is color blind; though sometimes the words aren't entirely mine. I learned this from a sermon of someone who was in a similar boat as me previously. Though I'm not 100% sure on all the person's end times ideas. However his ideas on Matthew 24 seemed solid.

I don't understand everything but, I'll do the best to show most of my view from what is often called the Olivet Discourse.
I think the a key to understanding the difference between the past and future of Matthew 24 is:

These things - 70 AD
That day - end times

With that in mind if you read this i think the result lines up with scripture.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mt 23:34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (Nathaniel: Notice these things also notice this generation)
Agreed.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Nathaniel: I believe the house he is talking about is the temple. Agreed. If you look by decree who made the house desolate? Da 9:27, Lu 21:22 Theres a good article here http://biblicaltruth...%20Scans%29.htm on the 70 weeks of Daniel. (this isn't the person I was referring to earlier)

That is a simple & clear link. IMNSHO the disps lose a lot of credibility when they insert 2,000 years into the 70 weeks, & then claim that the 1,000 years of Rev. 20 cannot be 2,000 years - of the present Gospel age millennium.


Mt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Nathaniel: I believe this verse shows that they aren't part of spiritual Israel until they believe then they are graffed back in)
Agreed.
Mt 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Nathaniel: Notice these things seems to reference the temple)
Agreed.
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Nathaniel: Notice there seems to be two questions when these things shall be and his coming and the end of the world.)
Yes, but what did they understand by their question? "World" has a number of meanings.

Mt 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Nathaniel: This seems to be a overview/outline of what he will expound on now. Unless the gospel has been preached to all nations which could be possible if you reference Mr 16:20. The end would then be referring to temple because of Mt 24:27, 1Th 4:14-17, I don't see those things happening in 70 AD.)

When Paul wrote to the Romans, he said: Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Does that require preaching to all nations, or sending the Gospel to all nations? I don't see an AD 70 problem.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Nathaniel: Reference to Daniel 9 and Lu 21:20.)
Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (Nathaniel: Reference Lu 21:23-24 and Ro 11:25)
Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

History tells us that the days of tribulation were interrupted/shortened to allow the elect (Jewish Christians) to escape the doomed city. They saw the signs.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (Nathaniel: Notice we changed to then (after the great tribulation)
Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
The Roman esgles gathered, & the coming of the Son of man to judge those who had rejected him was recognised by the Christians. Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Nathaniel: Notice the change from these days to those days which I believe is now talking about also. Now if you read again Lu 21:23-24 then go further to Luke 21:25. That the fulness of the gentiles must come first.)
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (Nathaniel: Notice it was then for quite awhile and now it said Now.)
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Nathaniel: This generation look at these verses Mt 23:33-36. Also notice these things)

I see a change at 24:35. The Jerusalem Christians were warned when to flee. The passing of heaven & earth at the second coming will be without warning. There is a general instruction to be faithful, watch & pray. We cannot flee to the mountains - we are safe in Christ.

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Nathaniel: Now notice that day)
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Bed time now. I'll look at the rest tomorrow.
Edited by Covenanter

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(Nathaniel: Lets look at Luke 17 below)
It is interesting that Luke separates this narrative from Jesus' Olivet prophecy.


Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
He is talking to his hearers, not some future generation.

Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
It is easy to see the lightning flash as a picture of the second coming, when everyone who has ever lived will be raised or changed:
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is that the intention? I think not. There will be many false messiahs - some are named in Acts & the epistles. The disciples must not be led astray - when the Son of man [be] in his day comes to fulfill his destruction prophecies, there will be no doubt. And there wasn't - the Jerusalem believers knew when to leave the city.

Lu 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Nathaniel: Who is they? Isn't it the wicked? Noah knew the flood came. Noah was left on the earth the bad people were taken away and destroyed. reference with 1Th 5:2-9)
Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (Nathaniel: It seems it will be similar to the days of Noah, however the Noah was righteous and wasn't taken away from the flood he was in the ark. He was left behind.)
Lu 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Lu 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Noah built the ark, & survived the wrath of God, while Lot fled the city, & escaped the wrath of God. The antediluvians & the Sodomites despised the warnings, carried on with their evil lifestyle, & suffered the wrath of God poured out on them. Likewise, those who persistently rejected first Jesus, then the Gospel, & carry on their life without considering the warnings will wish they had another chance - but will not repent:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,

There is a warning there against looking back, to the OC, circumcision & temple worship. (17:32 Remember Lot's wife.) Paul warns against that in Galatians.

Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Nathaniel: It seems they asked where they were taken. reference with Re 19:17-26 and Mt 24:28)
This text gives some support to the concept of the "rapture." Matthew puts it late in Mat. 24, after Jesus has said: Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. If my understanding of that is correct, it is the second coming, when all are resurrected or changed for eternity.

We should not treat prophecy as a subject for intellectual argument or speculation, but as serious warnings as to how we should live, & be ready to give account, knowing that Jesus will come again to raise & judge the living & dead for eternity.

Watch & pray....!


(For quicker reference and comparison Luke 21:5-36 below.)

Lu 21:5 ¶ And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Lu 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Lu 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Lu 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Lu 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Lu 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Lu 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Lu 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Lu 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Lu 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Lu 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Lu 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Lu 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Lu 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Lu 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Lu 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Lu 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Lu 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Lu 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lu 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
That looks surprising, but we need to remember all the persecutions the Jews inflicted on the Christians, both in Israel & wherever the Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached. That "official" persecution would come to an end.
Lu 21:29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Lu 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

This generation - AD 70. Note the fig tree, and all the trees. Not a prophecy of an end-times state of Israel, but the clear warning signs of the destruction.

What follows is a warning to all of us.

Lu 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Lu 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Lu 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Edited by Covenanter

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Where have I been the last seven years? I never knew that Preterist Hank Hanagraph (I used to love listening to him on the radio) wrote a novel as a counter to LaHaye's Left Behind series. Ha! And it was even done by the same publisher! You may want to check it out.

Linky

Thanks - it arrived from Amazon this morning.

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It is interesting that Luke separates this narrative from Jesus' Olivet prophecy.


Well, I've been at a sort of dead end, I couldn't think of much to say; and, I think there was somewhere in the bible not to look much into one issue and neglect the others. So I have been taking a short break from it. However I didn't want to leave you all hanging. So I was in my bed preparing to go to sleep and thinking over what you all had posted so I cold post something later. However I thought of that what I quoted above and and thought what if... Luke separated if from the prophesies and that is the key.. So I got up out of bed and looked at.

Lu 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

I then looked back a few passages for context;
Lu 21:5 ¶ And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Lu 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Now I've read over the Olivet a-lot lately so, I knew the comparison of Matthew 24

Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The end of the world isn't included in Luke 21:7. (The sign of the coming I will need to look further into.)


Lu 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Lu 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Lu 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Lu 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

and then compared with

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mt 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mt 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It would seem that is the key of dividing the questions in Mt 24:3. Now I probably am too excited to go to bed; I want to look further into it. I'll see where the Lord leads me tonight. I think I'll post something for Rick too after this.

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First of all, in this conversation it's a major step to even believe in a future Tribulation at all. If you don't, then you're a Preterist or Amillennial, or something like that. If you do, then you're a futurist. Please understand that before I proceed. I say that because both of your questions are actually in house debates amongst Futurists. I know futurists that disagree on the answers to both of those questions but still believe in a future Rapture of the church and a future Tribulation period. You don't have to agree with my answer to understand that the events in Revelation are still future.



I tend to lean towards a futurist position. Also, I had some things that didn't seem to line up.. Maybe you can answer the problems I'm having with your view? Thanks again :)


Scriptures for pre-Trib?

Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

The Philadelphian church was promised to be spared from the hour of temptation that would come upon the entire Earth. I believe that you can make a solid case that this promise is not limited to one local church located in Asia Minor, but that it is a promise to the church as a whole. When you read this verse, ask yourself these questions: At what time in history was the entire Earth tried - not just Christians? What time period is Revelation talking about? Do you believe that this promise can only apply to the one church, or could it apply to the church as a whole for a specific future event?


Isn't Re 3:10 for that specific church? Wouldn't other churches would have received the same if it applied to them? If we look at

Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

and

Re 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

That verse would be in between; so, I think according to scripture, whatever mentioned would have been in the present. I don't know when the entire earth has been tried.. However according to Covenanter there is an alternative I'm not saying I necessarily subscribe to that. However If i was to say just because I myself don't know when it happened it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If I did that I think that goes against.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Also that hour of temptation could refer to persecution something like in;

Re 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Jeremiah 30:7, “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

The whole point of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to God. It's called the "Jacob's Trouble" for that very reason. There's no point for the church to go into it, and furthermore the church isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 until she comes back with the Lord at Armageddon.



That could possibly fall under the destruction of the temple. Also I think Jacob's Trouble could be a hint.. I think there was a verse that even small things are significant in scripture like a dot. It is interesting to me that it says Jacob's trouble.



I Thessalonians 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The wrath to come is a future event - it's "to come," it's not here right now like Hell is. Some use this to say that we're rapture out in the middle of the Tribulation, but they ignore all the wrath in the first 3 1/2 years to do it.




I don't think the wrath necessarily has to refer to the wrath in Revelation because;

Mt 3:7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Why would the Pharisees and Sadducees need be warned of a tribulation that hasn't happened yet?
The way i see it the wrath in Mt 3:7 could be referring to hell and/or the destruction of the temple because of;

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mt 23:34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.




Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Our hope is in Jesus Christ's return. That is what we're supposed to be looking forward to. If we're to endure any part of the Tribulation, we'd be stupid and foolish to not be preparing for it. The Bible says we're worse than in infidel if we don't take care of our own - and yet there is no command in Scripture for us to prepare for the Tribulation. We're told to anxiously await Christ's return.



Even I who don't have a clear position of the end times look for that; to me it seems clear in scripture. I don't see how "The Tribulation" has to fit into this verse. If I understand correctly Covenanter who doesn't believe the pre-trib rapture, Looks for a blessed hope?

Also in regards to preparing

Lu 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Lu 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Lu 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Lu 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Lu 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Lu 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
Lu 12:22 ¶ And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
Lu 12:23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
Lu 12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
Lu 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
Lu 12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Lu 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Lu 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Lu 12:29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
Lu 12:30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
Lu 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Lu 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Lu 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Lu 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Lu 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Lu 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Lu 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Lu 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Lu 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Lu 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Lu 12:41 ¶ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Lu 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.




Who broke the covenant in Daniel 9:27?

Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

1. Whoever is confirming the Covenant does it for a week. That means there was a specific time period in which it began and a specific time period in which it was supposed to end. One week, or seven years.

2. In the middle of the week, whoever confirmed this covenant also stops it. He makes the sacrifices stop after three and one half years.

3. Here's the kicker: whoever does this, according to this verse, also makes the place desolate. It's not Christ, because Christ told the people about this very thing in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:15-16, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Whoever this is, when the Jews see it happen, and they all do - they are told to run for the hills. The same person to makes the covenant with Israel is the same person to breaks it and then desolates the temple. It's not the high priest, it's not Antiochus Epiphanies, it's not Hitler, it's not God or Christ - it's someone we haven't seen yet.

Is. 28:15, 18, "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

"18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."



I''m still looking into this because, I'm confused after reading Daniel 11.



I believe this covenant is with a future Antichrist, and it is called the covenant with death and Hell. It is signified also as the fourth Seal:

Rev. 6:7-8, "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say , Come and see.
8) And I looked , and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

The events for the first three seals describe the first three years of the Tribulation and this Seal is the middle of it, describing the time in which the Antichrist will declare himself to be God - something in which no High Priest did back in 70 A.D.

II Thess. 2:3-8, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

This Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ returns. Hasn't happened yet.



At this point at the very least I agree with you currently that the man of sin in Revelation is future. Contrary to my previous thoughts however, I'm wondering if Matthew actually has reference to the seals.



Edited by Nathaniel

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Hey Nathaniel,

I'll do my best to answer to your questions.

1. Whether or not "Jacob's Trouble" is 70 AD or future?

Jer. 30:7-10, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

The underlined portions within the context are indicators that Jacob's Trouble is future. The "Day of the Lord" is interpreted by futurists to refer to (for the most part) the end times. Very common in prophesy when you see the phrase "in that day" it is talking about the day of the Lord. Also you'll notice that David is raised up - where is he today? I believe in a resurrection of Old Testament saints before the Millennium (in-house futurism, once again) that they might be there to enjoy the promises. 70 AD was not a time of salvation or redemption for Israel, but the Day of the Lord, though it is dark, in the end is a time of salvation for the nation of Israel. This is what you see when you read about them returning and being at peace - something which hasn't happened yet.

2. "Wrath to come" - is it Hell or the Tribulation?

Remember: we’re getting into heavy in-house futurism here. You don’t have to agree with all of it to be a futurist.
You make a good point about John the Baptist, and I've considered that before. I don't automatically discount it, but I still lean towards the wrath to come being the Tribulation. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Millennium. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, within you. The two do overlap in Scripture, because you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being in the Kingdom of God - this is why Jesus said "Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS." The Jews wanted the millennial kingdom without the repentance that was needed to enter the spiritual kingdom first.

What's that got to do with John the Baptist? God offered the Kingdom to Israel with His Son. He wouldn't offer something and then make it to where you can't accept it, it was genuine. I don't know exactly how it would have worked out, but there were still opportunities for Israel to accept Christ as their Messiah. If they would have done that, prophesy still would have worked its way out, including Calvary. But 2,000 years ago there would have been a Tribulation period and a Millennium. Like I said, this is tough stuff and much more knowledgably men than me don't have it worked out yet. The wrath to come could have come 2,000 years ago.

I digress. Even if the "wrath to come," spoken of by John the Baptist was Hell - that doesn't mean that every time it's used it's Hell. The "wrath of the Lamb" in Revelation 6 isn't Hell. The "wrath" of the Seventh Trumpet isn't Hell. There are several times where the word "wrath" is used to describe the Tribulation period. If you look at the immediate context of the passages in I Thess that speak of the wrath to come you'll see a direct reference to the Second Coming.

I Thess. 1:18, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

I Thess 5:

"1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11) Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12) And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13) And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14) Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16) Rejoice evermore.
17) Pray without ceasing.
18) In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19) Quench not the Spirit.
20) Despise not prophesyings.
21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25) Brethren, pray for us.
26) Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27) I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

Also, the best passage on the Rapture of the Church is in the chapter right before this one as well.


3. Philadelphia's "hour of temptation" that "shall come upon all the world."

I think it's the Tribulation because the whole book of Revelation talks about the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a worldwide event that affects everyone and kills most everyone. I don't think the promise is exclusive to one little church in Asia Minor 1900 years ago.

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Hey Nathaniel,

I'll do my best to answer to your questions.

1. Whether or not "Jacob's Trouble" is 70 AD or future?

Jer. 30:7-10, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

The underlined portions within the context are indicators that Jacob's Trouble is future. The "Day of the Lord" is interpreted by futurists to refer to (for the most part) the end times. Very common in prophesy when you see the phrase "in that day" it is talking about the day of the Lord. Also you'll notice that David is raised up - where is he today? I believe in a resurrection of Old Testament saints before the Millennium (in-house futurism, once again) that they might be there to enjoy the promises. 70 AD was not a time of salvation or redemption for Israel, but the Day of the Lord, though it is dark, in the end is a time of salvation for the nation of Israel. This is what you see when you read about them returning and being at peace - something which hasn't happened yet.



Somehow I think I skipped over Jer. 30:7. I don't remember reading that part; or considering it when i posted on it. I'll look into it and the rest of your post more closely probably tomorrow. I stayed up and my eyes hurt so I'm going to be going to bed early. Thanks for your help.

Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.


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My comments



Hey Nathaniel,

I'll do my best to answer to your questions.

1. Whether or not "Jacob's Trouble" is 70 AD or future?

Jer. 30:7-10, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

The underlined portions within the context are indicators that Jacob's Trouble is future.
Obviously - it's prophecy. We have to consider from the context whether "future" is
1. the return from captivity in Babylon - the immediate & obvious meaning;
2. the first century saving work of Jesus (who rose to sit on David's throne - Acts 2) & brought about the NC - as taught in the next chapter;
3. the tribulation associated with Daniel's 70th week - AD 70;
4. Some yet future occasion.

There is an unjustified tendency for futurists to take OT prophecy - before the exile, during the exile, & after the return, & impose it on what they term "end times." The first rule of prophecy is to examine the times & context, & the second rule is to study how the NT writers use that prophecy. The effect of the futurists is to separate Scripture from it's context & it's immediate readers.


The "Day of the Lord" is interpreted by futurists to refer to (for the most part) the end times. Very common in prophesy when you see the phrase "in that day" it is talking about the day of the Lord. Also you'll notice that David is raised up - where is he today? I believe in a resurrection of Old Testament saints before the Millennium (in-house futurism, once again) that they might be there to enjoy the promises. 70 AD was not a time of salvation or redemption for Israel, but the Day of the Lord, though it is dark, in the end is a time of salvation for the nation of Israel. This is what you see when you read about them returning and being at peace - something which hasn't happened yet.

Who is Israel, & Jacob? Who are the seed (pl) of Abraham? Those natural descendants of Abraham, together with all believers in Jesus regardless of ethnicity. (In the OT circumcised proselytes, & in the NT, all believers.)

AD 70 was a time of deliverance for true believing Israel, as Jewish persecution ended, & of vindication of Jesus by his Olivet prophecy.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



2. "Wrath to come" - is it Hell or the Tribulation?
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Certainly hell, but note the next chapter which refers to the AD 70 wrath coming on rebellious Israel.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.



Remember: we’re getting into heavy in-house futurism here. You don’t have to agree with all of it to be a futurist.
You make a good point about John the Baptist, and I've considered that before. I don't automatically discount it, but I still lean towards the wrath to come being the Tribulation.

I'll stop there for the moment.
Edited by Covenanter

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Rick:



The Kingdom of Heaven is the Millennium. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, within you. The two do overlap in Scripture, because you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being in the Kingdom of God - this is why Jesus said "Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS." The Jews wanted the millennial kingdom without the repentance that was needed to enter the spiritual kingdom first.

Are "the kingdom of heaven" & "the kingdom of God" distinguished in Scripture? Only Matthew writes of "the kingdom of heaven." That is a separate study. The millennium, however we understand it, is a period of time, when the martyrs live & reign in with Christ heaven.

What's that got to do with John the Baptist? God offered the Kingdom to Israel with His Son. He wouldn't offer something and then make it to where you can't accept it, it was genuine. I don't know exactly how it would have worked out, but there were still opportunities for Israel to accept Christ as their Messiah. If they would have done that, prophesy still would have worked its way out, including Calvary. But 2,000 years ago there would have been a Tribulation period and a Millennium. Like I said, this is tough stuff and much more knowledgably men than me don't have it worked out yet. The wrath to come could have come 2,000 years ago.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
...
14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I suggest that looking for theological differences between "the kingdom of heaven" & "the kingdom of God" is wrongly dividing.

Was "the kingdom of heaven" & "the kingdom of God" a "take-it-or-leave-it" offer to Israel? I think NOT. The King came as promised, & his own were obliged to receive him. There is no suggestion that there would be another offer 2 millennia later, AFTER 2/3 of surviving Jews had been slaughtered at Armageddon. The Gospel was freely offered for 40 years before the wrath to come came on Israel.



I digress. Even if the "wrath to come," spoken of by John the Baptist was Hell - that doesn't mean that every time it's used it's Hell. The "wrath of the Lamb" in Revelation 6 isn't Hell. The "wrath" of the Seventh Trumpet isn't Hell. There are several times where the word "wrath" is used to describe the Tribulation period. If you look at the immediate context of the passages in I Thess that speak of the wrath to come you'll see a direct reference to the Second Coming.

Cautious agreement, as AD 70 was the wrath of the Lamb on Jerusalem. See my previous post.


I Thess. 1:18, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

I Thess 5:

"1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11) Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12) And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13) And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14) Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16) Rejoice evermore.
17) Pray without ceasing.
18) In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19) Quench not the Spirit.
20) Despise not prophesyings.
21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25) Brethren, pray for us.
26) Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27) I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

Also, the best passage on the Rapture of the Church is in the chapter right before this one as well.

! Thes. 4 & 5 are concerned with the second coming for resurrection & judgment, with reassurance of the state of dead believers. I do not see the supposed "rapture" being taught there.




3. Philadelphia's "hour of temptation" that "shall come upon all the world."

I think it's the Tribulation because the whole book of Revelation talks about the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a worldwide event that affects everyone and kills most everyone. I don't think the promise is exclusive to one little church in Asia Minor 1900 years ago.

In the tribulation period of Nero's reign, Christians suffered horrendous persecution. "World" often refers to the Roman world. That was certainly a time of trial, tribulation & suffering for believers. We have this promise from our Saviour:

Jhn 16:1 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
...
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


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I John 1:11, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

His own didn’t receive Him, and because of free will they weren't obligated to either. In this reference, "His own" are not saved people; they are a corporate group of people - the Jewish nation.

"His own" in this passage is not spiritual Israel (you and me), it's national Israel. See post #99.

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In the tribulation period of Nero's reign, Christians suffered horrendous persecution. "World" often refers to the Roman world. That was certainly a time of trial, tribulation & suffering for believers. We have this promise from our Saviour:



They suffered even more horrendous persecution under the papal antichrist.

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Rick:
I was thinking Jacob's Trouble would be the 144,000 Mentioned in revelation however. Reading on to Jeremiah 31. I'm Having problems with that as well because. It seems to most likely be connected with the Babylonian captivity. (I suppose its possible I'm missing something like before; Maybe you can show me if am. Thanks :icon_mrgreen:)

Because of the Similarities with Jer 46.

Jer 46:1 ¶ The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles;
Jer 46:2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.
Jer 46:3 Order ye the buckler and shield, and draw near to battle.
Jer 46:4 Harness the horses; and get up, ye horsemen, and stand forth with your helmets; furbish the spears, and put on the brigandines.
Jer 46:5 Wherefore have I seen them dismayed and turned away back? and their mighty ones are beaten down, and are fled apace, and look not back: for fear was round about, saith the LORD.
Jer 46:6 Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates.
Jer 46:7 Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers?
Jer 46:8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
Jer 46:9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Jer 46:11 Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.
Jer 46:12 ¶ The nations have heard of thy shame, and thy cry hath filled the land: for the mighty man hath stumbled against the mighty, and they are fallen both together.
Jer 46:13 The word that the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt.
Jer 46:14 Declare ye in Egypt, and publish in Migdol, and publish in Noph and in Tahpanhes: say ye, Stand fast, and prepare thee; for the sword shall devour round about thee.
Jer 46:15 Why are thy valiant men swept away? they stood not, because the LORD did drive them.
Jer 46:16 He made many to fall, yea, one fell upon another: and they said, Arise, and let us go again to our own people, and to the land of our nativity, from the oppressing sword.
Jer 46:17 They did cry there, Pharaoh king of Egypt is but a noise; he hath passed the time appointed.
Jer 46:18 As I live, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts, Surely as Tabor is among the mountains, and as Carmel by the sea, so shall he come.
Jer 46:19 O thou daughter dwelling in Egypt, furnish thyself to go into captivity: for Noph shall be waste and desolate without an inhabitant.
Jer 46:20 Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh out of the north.
Jer 46:21 Also her hired men are in the midst of her like fatted bullocks; for they also are turned back, and are fled away together: they did not stand, because the day of their calamity was come upon them, and the time of their visitation.
Jer 46:22 The voice thereof shall go like a serpent; for they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as hewers of wood.
Jer 46:23 They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, and are innumerable.
Jer 46:24 The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north.
Jer 46:25 The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him:
Jer 46:26 And I will deliver them into the hand of those that seek their lives, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of his servants: and afterward it shall be inhabited, as in the days of old, saith the LORD.
Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Also Jer 31 leads me to think that, that prophecy has already fulfilled. (for the most part at least).

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Mt 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Jer 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Lu 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Remember: we’re getting into heavy in-house futurism here. You don’t have to agree with all of it to be a futurist.
You make a good point about John the Baptist, and I've considered that before. I don't automatically discount it, but I still lean towards the wrath to come being the Tribulation. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Millennium. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, within you. The two do overlap in Scripture, because you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being in the Kingdom of God - this is why Jesus said "Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS." The Jews wanted the millennial kingdom without the repentance that was needed to enter the spiritual kingdom first.

What's that got to do with John the Baptist? God offered the Kingdom to Israel with His Son. He wouldn't offer something and then make it to where you can't accept it, it was genuine. I don't know exactly how it would have worked out, but there were still opportunities for Israel to accept Christ as their Messiah. If they would have done that, prophesy still would have worked its way out, including Calvary. But 2,000 years ago there would have been a Tribulation period and a Millennium. Like I said, this is tough stuff and much more knowledgably men than me don't have it worked out yet. The wrath to come could have come 2,000 years ago.


I do still lean toward most of Revelation being future too; However I do think I disagree though on the rest.

I think the Kingdom of Heaven might be different than the Kingdom of God. However, I don't think it would be a earthly kingdom. Becasue of,


Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

From this verse It seems that the kingdom of heaven is a kingdom in heaven.

I also think he wouldn't make anything they couldn't accept. God knows everything; what will and would happen as well. I don't think he came to offer a fleshly kingdom.

Joh 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Also

Isa 53:1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
Ps 118:23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Also


Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I don't think the time of the gentiles has finished yet.


Daniel 9:24 does seem to go along with your ideas kind of. Hypothetically, if there was to be a kingdom it seems it would have been at the end of the 70 weeks. After the Desolation of the temple. However I don't believe it is plausible. Because of God's foreknowledge. As we know that we are here. So there I think it safe to think that he wasn't there wasn't going to be a fleshy kingdom. As he knew I would exist and know things for me in the future that I yet do not.


Ro 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

and some NT scriptures


Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mr 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mr 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Joh 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Ac 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Ac 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ac 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

I believe this is on topic because it shows my train of thought. I believe at this point that we are elect because of God's foreknowledge.

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ro 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Though it seems we are not forced and that It is our choice according to;

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I don't understand it all but;

Ro 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

I digress. Even if the "wrath to come," spoken of by John the Baptist was Hell - that doesn't mean that every time it's used it's Hell. The "wrath of the Lamb" in Revelation 6 isn't Hell. The "wrath" of the Seventh Trumpet isn't Hell. There are several times where the word "wrath" is used to describe the Tribulation period. If you look at the immediate context of the passages in I Thess that speak of the wrath to come you'll see a direct reference to the Second Coming.


I agree that wrath doesn't always have to mean hell. Edited by Nathaniel

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Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Those verses are obviously linked, & I won't fall out with anyone who sees the second coming there. However John sees the fulfillment of the piercing as occurring at the cross. (John 19:34-37)


That is interesting, however I'm having trouble seeing it that way because the rest doesn't seem to fit;

Zec 12:9 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Though on the other hand what other scripture could it mean? The only other I can think of that comes close is;

Ps 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Ps 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

However if we compare

Ps 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Ps 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Ps 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Ps 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

With

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Joh 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

It could make sense because they are all from Psalms.


Jesus was condemned for claiming the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven for himself. (Mat 26:64) In that context it referrred to his ascension, as seen by Daniel:

Dan 7:13 ¶ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Those who condemned him would see him, whom they refused to see with understanding. They saw him through Stephen's eyes, and stopped their ears. They would "see" him when his Olivet prophecy was perfectly fulfilled a generation later. His "coming" would be like that prophesied by Micah:


I have to disagree with you here because;

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Mic 1:1 ¶ The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 ¶ Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

In AD 70 Jesus proves his ascension by fulfilling his prophecy against those who condemned him.

Skipping this for now, I need to look into it further.



1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dead believers are asleep in Jesus. Asleep, dead, as far as we are concerned, but enjoying the presence of Jesus in heaven - living & reigning with him. They will be resurrected, & we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15) What disps teach is the rapture, we understand as the resurrection. Which word is Scriptural?



I don't see anything wrong with that at this point.


Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I have no quarrel with those who see that as the second coming, when all, good & wicked, alive & dead, will see Jesus coming in glory.

It need not mean that. The Jewish Christians saw the signs, & fled the city. The martyrs in heaven saw Jesus vindicated by his judgment.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Note that Jesus had prophesied:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Thats interesting; I'll probably look into that further.

Yes, but what did they understand by their question? "World" has a number of meanings.


I agree it can probably have a few meanings because, I found this in Exodus;

Ex 10:14 And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.
Ex 10:15 For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.

When Paul wrote to the Romans, he said: Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Does that require preaching to all nations, or sending the Gospel to all nations? I don't see an AD 70 problem.
I don't necessarily see one either

Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen

Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
History tells us that the days of tribulation were interrupted/shortened to allow the elect (Jewish Christians) to escape the doomed city. They saw the signs.


I've heard the Roman army retreated temporarily and it was then the Christians escaped. Whether or not its true I don't know.
Edited by Nathaniel

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I John 1:11, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

His own didn’t receive Him, and because of free will they weren't obligated to either. In this reference, "His own" are not saved people; they are a corporate group of people - the Jewish nation.

"His own" in this passage is not spiritual Israel (you and me), it's national Israel. See post #99.

I agree with you. Throughout the OT, national Israel are "my people" & under the OC have the obligation to keep the OC - the Law. All the promises were given to ethnic Israel:

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Those of my people who did receive him were owned as sons of God. We are in Gospel days.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The question of whether national Israel will be saved in some future dispensation is not considered by Paul. To be saved, they must turn from their unbelief. In Rom. 11 he states:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Do you, as futurists seem to maintain, see God's faithfulness to his promises to Israel means slaughtering 2/3 of them after inflicting dreadful tribulation, & then allowing the survivors to look on Christ for salvation? And then the survivors, believers, as mortal human living & having families who will ultimately rally to Satan's call against Christ? All the while ruled by Raptured Christians back on earth?

Fantastic.

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I agree with you. Throughout the OT, national Israel are "my people" & under the OC have the obligation to keep the OC - the Law. All the promises were given to ethnic Israel:

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Those of my people who did receive him were owned as sons of God. We are in Gospel days.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The question of whether national Israel will be saved in some future dispensation is not considered by Paul. To be saved, they must turn from their unbelief. In Rom. 11 he states:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

I believe they have to believe first as well.


Do you, as futurists seem to maintain, see God's faithfulness to his promises to Israel means slaughtering 2/3 of them after inflicting dreadful tribulation, & then allowing the survivors to look on Christ for salvation? And then the survivors, believers, as mortal human living & having families who will ultimately rally to Satan's call against Christ? All the while ruled by Raptured Christians back on earth?

Fantastic.


I have some confusion with this also; I think the futurist position is somewhat like that. I am interested in Rick's explanation. I haven't looked too far into this part. I was focusing more on the seals first. Also I think this is related to Da 7? How do you both (Covenanter and Rick) think it works out?


Edited by Nathaniel

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Do you, as futurists seem to maintain, see God's faithfulness to his promises to Israel means slaughtering 2/3 of them after inflicting dreadful tribulation, & then allowing the survivors to look on Christ for salvation? And then the survivors, believers, as mortal human living & having families who will ultimately rally to Satan's call against Christ? All the while ruled by Raptured Christians back on earth?

Fantastic.


"Fantastic?" - You and I believe the same thing except we have different timelines. You think they needed to heed the admonition to run (Matthew 24) in 70 A.D. to avoid the "tribulation" of Jerusalem being sacked. I believe not only did they need to do that, but that if they run at the 3 and 1/2 year mark in the future Tribulation period, to the place prepared for them in the wilderness, they'll be supernaturally protected and fed by God for entire second half of the Tribulation while the whole world is tried.

Even in judgment God is merciful.

Rev. 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days." Edited by Rick Schworer

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