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The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 has a bow with no arrows, and he is followed by other riders that spell nothing but death and destruction for a large population of the Earth. If the rider is Christ, and He is truly "conquering," then why the death and destruction and why all the martyrs with the Fifth Seal?

If the rider is a future antichrist, it fits much better. He conquers peaceably, with flattery, according to Daniel, which is why he doesn't have any arrows. But what follows him is martyrs and the judgment of God on this Earth.

I agree that the Sixth Seal lines up very well with the parts of the Olivet prophesy that refer to the Second Coming, because the Sixth and Seventh Seal are the Second Coming (see chart in post #3). In post #34 I showed verses that demonstrate that Revelation 1:7 does in fact refer to more than just the tribes of Israel.

Good discussion.

Edited by Rick Schworer

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In post #34 I showed verses that demonstrate that Revelation 1:7 does in fact refer to more than just the tribes of Israel.


In Zechariah, a third part of the Jews are delivered. Those who were not delivered, perished because of the civil war within Jerusalem, before the final destruction. The fight against Jerusalem was effectively internal, by the warring factions.

I don't want to argue too many points, but think it best to state our case & allow Nathaniel (are you still reading this?) & others to search the Scriptures with our guidance.

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Locusts creep me out.


They are not a creeping thing. They were permitted as food in the OT and John the Baptist lived on them with wild honey. I can remember someone saying he had seen candied grasshoppers in Harrods store in London.

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Candied grasshoppers creep me out too.

Hey, don't mess this up, Invicta, we're trying to build a little unity and common ground here. The only thing we've all managed to agree on so far in this thread is that locusts are creepy, and you come in to protest that? :D

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Well if you believe the bible even King David could raise about a million and a half man army at one point.

"1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

Then in the time of King Asa he was able to actually raise an army of half a million or so just from two tribes and defeat an attacking army of over a million.

2 Chronicles 14:8-12 And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.Then Asa went out against him, and they set the battle in array in the valley of Zephathah at Mareshah. And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O LORD, thou art our God; let not man prevail against thee. So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.


The large numbers in ancient battles is one of several issues "scholars" have with biblical accounts. They claim it is impossible that the numbers were anywhere near that large in that time period. I guess that depends on who you believe. "Logistics" is a poor reason to reject the sizes of the armies in revelation unless your consistent and use "logistics" to "prove" the bible is wrong in the OT too as some scholars do.


Did David have horsemen? I thought horses were forbidden to the Israelites? D=Sorry if I an wrong. I believe that Solomon was the first to use horses. He was also an arms trader, buying chariots from the Egyptians and selling them on.

Zerah managed to invade with 1,000,000 troops. 9 ¶ And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.

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Zerah managed to invade with 1,000,000 troops. 9 ¶ And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.


That is 2 Chron: 14.

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We have seen that the white horseman is Christ himself, victorious, & continuing to conquer. A bow without arrows is useless, but that is NOT the picture. Remember Psalm 45?

3 Gird thy sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

Seals 2, 3 & 4 reveal the judgement on his enemies. Seal 5 gives the reason.

Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What did Jesus say?

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The long prophesied judgment on the Jews who rejected the prophets, & their Messiah, & his Gospel preachers, is about to fall.

The 6th seal reveals the terror they will feel as they suffer the wrath of the Lamb of God.

As Rev. 7 opens, we see the answer to another situation - the believers trapped in Jerusalem as the city awaits its judgment. The servants of God are sealed for their protection. They will not suffer with the rebellious city.

The result - the triumphant believers around the throne! They have been rescued from the great tribulation that fell on the city. The martyrs live & reign with Christ!

Hallelujah! In anticipation of the NH&NE Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Before we leave the seals, Rev. 8 begins with silence, & prayer.

The trumpets are a partial judgment, so represent a warning, yet Rev 9:20 ... the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not....

Edited by Covenanter

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Seals 2, 3 & 4 reveal the judgement on his enemies. Seal 5 gives the reason.


I'm curious as to how you explain seals two through four from your perspective:

Rev. 6:3-8, "And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Edited by Rick Schworer

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"Earth" (Gk "ge") does not necessarily mean the planet. John was concerned with the Gospel to the planet (the nations) - he had the great commission. However, he knew the Olivet prophecy of judgment for the rebellious Jews in the land of Israel. The numbers are of the prophesied judgemnt.

We need to compare the vision with Zechariah's horsemen.

Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
....
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
12 ¶ Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me [with] good words [and] comfortable words.

Zechariah's vision was to encourage the Jews who had returned to get of with rebuilding the temple & the city ready for Messiah.

The horsemen are angelic beings, keeping watch on the land & reporting the the LORD.

We see them again in Z.6. They quieten the enemies in north & south, Babylonia & Egypt, so the rebuilding can proceed in peace, ready for Joshua (Jesus) the priest king - one of only 2 priest-kings in the OT. The other is Melchizedek, the pre-incarnate Christ.

Zec 6:8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
....
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

By the time of John's visions, the rebellion of the Jews against their Christ is such that the watching horsemen-angels return for judgment.

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I'm not trying to box you in, I just want to know where you're coming from.

So, in your interpritation, "earth" means Jews, right? So does that mean these seals are war, famine, a bad economy, and death by sword, hunger, and wild beasts, all for the Jews, right? Dated only in 70 A.D.?

I think we've debated this thing enough, I'm fine with just presenting the two sides for others to decide if that's what you want to do.

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See #33 for earth/ge.

Strong:
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
B ) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region


Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land1093 of Juda,

Mat 2:20 Saying , Arise , and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land1093 of Israel:

Mat 4:15 The land1093 of Zabulon, and the land1093 of Nephthalim,

Mat 9:26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land1093.

Mat 9:31 But they, when they were departed , spread abroad his fame in all that country1093.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land1093 of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground1093 without your Father.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth1093: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I think it reasonable to see "ge" as probably referring to the land of Israel. Like the Jews today use "eretz." Edited by Covenanter

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In Zechariah, a third part of the Jews are delivered. Those who were not delivered, perished because of the civil war within Jerusalem, before the final destruction. The fight against Jerusalem was effectively internal, by the warring factions.

I don't want to argue too many points, but think it best to state our case & allow Nathaniel (are you still reading this?) & others to search the Scriptures with our guidance.



Yeah I'm still reading this :D Sorry, I just haven't thought of much I could add that would be profitable to the conversation. But yes I was hoping for the "case" and then searching the scriptures to see if they align :D

Covenanter: Your idea does seem to have lots of logic in some points I can see where your coming from. But in others I cant see it. (Mainly in Revelation) So maybe you can show me how those things were fulfilled in your view.


PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE MY PRE-MIL AND A-MIL IDEA!!!
I WOULD FEEL BAD IF ANYONE DID AS I CURRENTLY DON'T BELIEVE IT!!
AND I THINK AT THE MOMENT SCRIPTURE REFUTES IT!

The only way I saw that one could say the seals were for Israel is first if you render lots of the earth for land in Greek and then if the seals stopped at (Mt 24:21) and then if you don't take (Re 7:16) and (Re 8:1) literally then apply the 7th seal in as opened and the silence as a indefinite time (which hasn't ended.)
Then using (2Pe 3:9). Combined (Re 7:1) compared with (Mt 24:31) saying the winds didn't blow and so we were not gathered from the four winds yet. Or something along that lines. Thus making a Pre-Mil A-mil approach (Which I thought of while pondering how one could make your idea fit. As something seems off with it to me at this point to be honest.)

This idea i had is less literal than I like to take things, I don't believe in my idea. (currently at the very least. I don't think I ever will unless the Holy spirit leads that way; likewise i wouldn't recommend my idea to anyone else at this point (PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE MY PRE-MIL AND A-MIL IDEA!!! I WOULD FEEL BAD IF ANYONE DID AS I CURRENTLY DON'T BELIEVE IT!! AND I THINK AT THE MOMENT SCRIPTURE REFUTES IT!) This is here to show you where I don't see Covenanter's view; And for you all to tear the idea to shreds; so, I have more evidence against it. (As was part of my main idea of this thread to let you all tear my idea to shreds if it was possible; then move on to the next idea I would hopefully have). As It seems like believing that idea i had (a Post-Trib A-mil) approach is doing what is mentioned in 2Pe 3:16 I'm pretty sure there are other scriptures which prove wrong my idea as well.



Most if not all the verses that I quoted in (verse numbers i think they are called?) in this post. For quick reference.


Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Re 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.


Re 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour


2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.





PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE MY PRE-MIL AND A-MIL IDEA!!! I WOULD FEEL BAD IF ANYONE DID AS I CURRENTLY DON'T BELIEVE IT!! AND I THINK AT THE MOMENT SCRIPTURE REFUTES IT!

To hopefully make sure this gets seen I'll copy and paste it!

PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE MY PRE-MIL AND A-MIL IDEA!!!
I WOULD FEEL BAD IF ANYONE DID AS I CURRENTLY DON'T BELIEVE IT!!
AND I THINK AT THE MOMENT SCRIPTURE REFUTES IT!



Edited by Nathaniel

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Israel is not extinct, and God always keeps His promises.

Brother Nathaniel, please understand that Covenanter is a Preterist. Meaning he believe that there is no such thing as a Great Tribulation as described by Jesus and spoken of in great detail in fifteen chapters of Revelation. He assigns all this to Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Though I have no idea what he does when it talks about 1/3 of the Earth's population being killed, 1/3 of life in the sea being killed, and 1/3 of everything green being burnt up. That never happened in 70 A.D.

There are so many prophesies that haven't been fufilled yet: When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about the 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

He doesn't believe in a Millennium either, though I do give him credit for believing in the future New Heavens and New Earth. If one does believe like Ian, at least he does have hope in that. He relegates all the wonderful prophesies of the Millennium to the NH & NE, ignoring the prophesies that are wonderful indeed, but clearly not of the NH & NE, such as people living to very old ages but still dying (no death in NH & NE) and Millennial prophesies of the sea being filled with the knowledge of the Lord (no sea in the NH & NE).

He would have you to combine the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment altogether in one general judgment. I'm not sure how he handles the Battle of Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog and the thousand years in between. I do know that he thinks the thousand years in Revelation 20 started in 70 A.D., and is still going on. This, of course, would mean that Satan was bound, right now, in the bottomless pit. As in bound during the Dark Ages as well, when Satan ruled the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe he got out for awhile or has a really long chain. In spite of all the war, suffering, and problems since Jesus left this Earth, Covenanter would have you to believe that Jesus is ruling the world right now and that we are in the Millennium. This ignores the fact that Paul calls Satan the god of this world.

Basically, in the end, Jesus said the events in Revelation were going to happen soon. This is what Covenanter bases everything on to backdate Revelation before 70 A.D. and squeeze all of the catastrophic events in Revelation to 70 A.D. Yes, Jesus said that, but He also said that things that happened in the Great Tribulation were so extreme that we've never seen them before and they'd never happen again. To assign that to Jerusalem getting sacked in 70 A.D. is to ignore Nebuchadnezzar's attack in 606 B.C. and Hitler's holocaust.

Another favorite attack is bringing up history and, most recently, claiming that Jesuits invented the idea of pre-Millennialism. I have no idea how pre-Millennialism would help the RCC, because the greatest soul winners over the last two hundred years have all been pre-Millennial and much of the time led people out of the Roman Catholic Church. The history argument against pre-Millennialism and Dispensations is an argument that is to try and get you out of your Bible. Historically, many theologians have been dead wrong, so why should we care? I care what the Bible says.

I have no idea what he thinks about the rapture. Maybe he thinks it happened in 70 A.D. as well, I'd like to know. In the Olivet Prophesy, Jesus talks about how when all these things happen, to look up for your redemption draweth nigh. If the Olivet was limited to only the destruction of Jerusalem, then those looking up saw nothing and were not delivered, and there was no redemption drawing nigh. If you believe Revelation 19 and several Old Testament passages you see Israel being surrounded by her enemies and Jesus Christ returning to Earth bodily and destroying those armies. THAT is redemption drawing nigh.

I'm not trying to smear Ian, and he's more than welcome to correct me if I've said he believes something here that he doesn't. I say all this because I feel it's only fair for you to know what you're getting into when you listen to him and I'd have no problem with someone exposing what I believe. I like Ian, and I know he loves the Lord and has a heart for helping people and spreading the Gospel, but he’s really off on his end times stuff.


I think i can assure you I'm being very careful. (I've read much of your and Covenanter's discussions on other boards (it was a really long one and the forum got locked.) Though most of the posts seemed to be a bit over my head so ). I know some of dispensationalism (I used to believe it) but i read some things that didn't align with scripture... Maybe you can answer those I'll put them below as maybe I had some weird view of dispensationalism. Since you both posted I was looking for more of summary of your views.

Kinda like


The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;


And I didn't really understand your chart for some reason. So maybe you (or anyone) can give me a summary of their views kinda like that? But with some scripture too? As when i look other places they always seem biased towards their own opinion lots of it attacking each. (and I cant ask questions). So getting it from a person is a great opportunity to compare them with scripture and see if any are correct.


Rick (about dispensationalism which i understand to be the ground for pre-trib)
One of the things i was taught in a dispensationalism commentary was,
Christ has two brides Israel and The church. (which I believe is false) If you believe that can you explain that to me? It seems to go against (Mt 19:4-9) (1Jo 3:5)
Also somewhere though not by the majority I read one person thought people will be saved by works in the millennial kingdom. For some reasoning based on if the world is so great how can anyone be saved by faith (which i believe to be false). For one because of (Eph 2:8-9) and Ga (2:16). Also in the garden even Adam knowing of God, in the world so great and the instructions of God he ate the apple; and Israel also at many times if i remember correctly they knew of the great deliverance's and then later much of Israel had such unbelief and so that its no reason to justify works salvation in the millennial kingdom.

Forgive me for the poor grammar and such I'm running out of time tonight. I need to get to my nightly bible reading before I get too tired. (I'm excited because I'm back at genesis now.) I read most of the bible through though some i listened too early on until i found errors in the recording false readings of verses (As I normally early on would read along with the audio bible) (beware of the firefighters KJV audio bible I don't remember where they were exactly though I think it was in Leviticus (early on in the bible) and it wasn't a small error..)

Edited by Nathaniel

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So, in your interpritation, "earth" means Jews, right? So does that mean these seals are war, famine, a bad economy, and death by sword, hunger, and wild beasts, all for the Jews, right? Dated only in 70 A.D.?
--------
I asked you three questions, brother, thanks for answering the first - but what about the other two?

1. earth/Gk "ge" is variously translated, with various meanings. when unspecified, it may mean the world or the land of Israel. It doesn't mean "Jews" but in context, the land of Israel.
2. the judgments are on a massive scale, such as occur in a specific territory, Israel, rather than referring to the whole earth.
3. It did occur in AD 70.

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Covenanter: Your idea does seem to have lots of logic in some points I can see where your coming from. But in others I cant see it. (Mainly in Revelation) So maybe you can show me how those things were fulfilled in your view.


I hope that will become apparent in my posts.

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Comments in blue

The only way I saw that one could say the seals were for Israel is first if you render lots of the earth for land in Greek That is a reasonable understaning of the Gk "ge." and then if the seals stopped at (Mt 24:21) I see the seals/judgment of Israel ending with Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. and then if you don't take (Re 7:16) The generation that rejected it's Messiah is about to be judged. There are many believing Jews who must be delivered first. There are protected, & escape to safety. and (Re 8:1) literally then apply the 7th seal in as opened and the silence as a indefinite time (which hasn't ended.) The Olivet prophesied judgment of the generation has now been detailed. The prayer of the persecuted believers is seen in:

Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

That prayer ascend to heaven & judgment begins as the trumpet sounds. The judgments are very graphic, but are incomplete - God is gracious & allows yet for repentance. Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not.... To interpret/understand, we need to look to the OT for the same sort of language for the judgments of the enemies of Israel. I have already shown how the sun, moon & stars falling are understood in the judgments of Babylon (Isa 13) & Egypt. (Eze 32) Also the LORD's coming to judge Israel & Judah in Micah 1.


Then using (2Pe 3:9). Combined (Re 7:1) compared with (Mt 24:31) saying the winds didn't blow and so we were not gathered from the four winds yet. Or something along that lines. Thus making a Pre-Mil A-mil approach (Which I thought of while pondering how one could make your idea fit. As something seems off with it to me at this point to be honest.)

Again we need to look at the OT pattern of prophetic language. The Gospel went out to the whole world - the great commission - to gather his elect. Countless Jews (of the dispersion) & Gentiles were called, & many thousands of Jews in Israel. The Jewish Christians were protected & delivered - they saw the signs & fled the city before the great tribulation.

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee...



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My comments in blue




I think i can assure you I'm being very careful. (I've read much of your and Covenanter's discussions on other boards (it was a really long one and the forum got locked.) Though most of the posts seemed to be a bit over my head so ). I know some of dispensationalism (I used to believe it) but i read some things that didn't align with scripture... Maybe you can answer those I'll put them below as maybe I had some weird view of dispensationalism. Since you both posted I was looking for more of summary of your views.

Kinda like




I'll leave it Rick to respond to the following

And I didn't really understand your chart for some reason. So maybe you (or anyone) can give me a summary of their views kinda like that? But with some scripture too? As when i look other places they always seem biased towards their own opinion lots of it attacking each. (and I cant ask questions). So getting it from a person is a great opportunity to compare them with scripture and see if any are correct.


Rick (about dispensationalism which i understand to be the ground for pre-trib)
One of the things i was taught in a dispensationalism commentary was,
Christ has two brides Israel and The church. (which I believe is false) If you believe that can you explain that to me? It seems to go against (Mt 19:4-9) (1Jo 3:5)
Also somewhere though not by the majority I read one person thought people will be saved by works in the millennial kingdom. For some reasoning based on if the world is so great how can anyone be saved by faith (which i believe to be false). For one because of (Eph 2:8-9) and Ga (2:16). Also in the garden even Adam knowing of God, in the world so great and the instructions of God he ate the apple; and Israel also at many times if i remember correctly they knew of the great deliverance's and then later much of Israel had such unbelief and so that its no reason to justify works salvation in the millennial kingdom.

Forgive me for the poor grammar and such I'm running out of time tonight. I need to get to my nightly bible reading before I get too tired. (I'm excited because I'm back at genesis now.) I read most of the bible through though some i listened too early on until i found errors in the recording false readings of verses (As I normally early on would read along with the audio bible) (beware of the firefighters KJV audio bible I don't remember where they were exactly though I think it was in Leviticus (early on in the bible) and it wasn't a small error..)


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Since you both posted I was looking for more of summary of your views.

Kinda like

The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;


I'm happy to help however I can. I just bit my tongue while chomping down on an apple and I'm in a massive amount of pain at the moment.

There, better now.

I'm reeeeeeeeaaaaallllly tired of kibitzing and arguing about Revelation, and I think Ian is too, so from this point I'm guessing we're mainly going to give our point of views and let the chips fall where they may. If I ask you a question, Ian, it's not to challenge you, it's to better understand where you're coming from.

1. Yes, chapter one has an immediacy in it, but nothing from chapter four yet has occurred.

2. Yes, there is correspondence from the Olivet prophesy to the Second Advent in Revelation. That's because the Olivet prophesy has not been fulfilled in entirety as of yet.

3. In Daniel the temple is rebuilt and the Antichrist stops the sacrifices after 3 1/2 years, in the "midst of the week," or in the middle of the future seven year (as in seven days to a week) tribulation.

4. In Revelation 7 there are two groups. The 144,000 which are very specific - 12,000 from each tribe: no more, no less. The 144,000 are sealed before the Earth is hurt, it doesn't say they are delivered. They are on Earth and sealed before the Tribulation begins. Following them, there is a great multitude from every tribe and language on Earth that come out from the Great Tribulation, these are not Jews, they Gentiles from all over the Earth as it specifically says they are from every kindred and nation on Earth and they COME OUT of Great Tribulation.

Dan. 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Rev. 7:9-14, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And I didn't really understand your chart for some reason. So maybe you (or anyone) can give me a summary of their views kinda like that? But with some scripture too? As when i look other places they always seem biased towards their own opinion lots of it attacking each. (and I cant ask questions). So getting it from a person is a great opportunity to compare them with scripture and see if any are correct.


I believe that contained within John's entire vision there are four separate accounts of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, just as there were four accounts of his First Coming. What that chart shows is the simialarities between the Olivet prophesy, the Sixth and Seventh Vial, the Second and Third Woe and Seventh Trumpet, and the Sixth and Seventh Seal. Every futurist already understands that Revelation 19 is Armageddon, but in that chart I'm trying to demonstrate that the other three events in Revelation are Armageddon as well. [WARNING: COMMERCIAL] It's a chart from my book which is available as paperback or I can send you a free eBook if you PM me with your e-mail address.


Rick (about dispensationalism which i understand to be the ground for pre-trib)
One of the things i was taught in a dispensationalism commentary was,
Christ has two brides Israel and The church. (which I believe is false) If you believe that can you explain that to me? It seems to go against (Mt 19:4-9) (1Jo 3:5)


I don't believe that, and I don't know any dispensationalists that do. Christ has one bride, the church. God the Father's estranged wife is Israel.

Also somewhere though not by the majority I read one person thought people will be saved by works in the millennial kingdom. For some reasoning based on if the world is so great how can anyone be saved by faith (which i believe to be false). For one because of (Eph 2:8-9) and Ga (2:16). Also in the garden even Adam knowing of God, in the world so great and the instructions of God he ate the apple; and Israel also at many times if i remember correctly they knew of the great deliverance's and then later much of Israel had such unbelief and so that its no reason to justify works salvation in the millennial kingdom.


That's an in-house debate amongst Futurists, and it certainly isn't a maker-breaker for the whole structure. I don't claim to know exactly how people are saved in the Millennium, but I have a hard time believing it's exactly like us. For starters, we're in the body of Christ, a spiritual organism tied directly to Jesus Christ, He's in us and we're in Him it says in John. At the Rapture, the body is taken up into Heaven. Then later the Bride (the body) is married to Christ. The people living in the Millennium aren't in the bride of Christ, and therefore they're not in the body of Christ. The verses you quoted apply to members of the body of Christ, but there's no guarantee they apply to anyone else. Just like Leviticus doesn't apply to us either.

That's just getting started too. Jesus Christ will be physically ruling the world from a throne in Jerusalem, and the Bible says everyone will know Him. He's not going to be a suffering servant; He'll be the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, ruling with a rod of Iron with the holes in His hands and feet. It just doesn't leave a lot of room for faith: something that you can't see. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say people that obey the rule of Jesus Christ simply don't die in the Millennium (those in the Millennium live super long lives), but those that rebel against Him do. But that's just my opinion, and it's not some hill I'd be willing to die on or anything and to make it the focus of this conversation would be counterproductive to understanding the main structure of Futurism.

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I'm reeeeeeeeaaaaallllly tired of kibitzing and arguing about Revelation, and I think Ian is too, so from this point I'm guessing we're mainly going to give our point of views and let the chips fall where they may. If I ask you a question, Ian, it's not to challenge you, it's to better understand where you're coming from.
"Kibitz" isn't in my vocab. I didn't think we were arguing, but studying it from various viewpoints.
There are many questions that need to be examined for a proper understanding. We are on the same side, as we look for our Lord's glorious return.

1. Yes, chapter one has an immediacy in it, but nothing from chapter four yet has occurred.
The problem with that is that the temple & Jerusalem are still standing in Rev. 11.

2. Yes, there is correspondence from the Olivet prophesy to the Second Advent in Revelation. That's because the Olivet prophesy has not been fulfilled in entirety as of yet.
See pt. 1. I appreciate that argument, but as the focus is "this generation" we need to consider the AD 70 fulfilment.

3. In Daniel the temple is rebuilt and the Antichrist stops the sacrifices after 3 1/2 years, in the "midst of the week," or in the middle of the future seven year (as in seven days to a week) tribulation.
The temple was rebuilt, also Jerusalem. See Ezra, Nehemiah. Haggai, Zechariah. The effective sacrifices were stopped in the middle of the 70th week - at Calvary, when Messiah was cut off. There is no prophecy of a future man-made temple. Ezekiel prophesied during the exile.

4. In Revelation 7 there are two groups. The 144,000 which are very specific - 12,000 from each tribe: no more, no less. The 144,000 are sealed before the Earth is hurt, it doesn't say they are delivered. They are on Earth and sealed before the Tribulation begins. Following them, there is a great multitude from every tribe and language on Earth that come out from the Great Tribulation, these are not Jews, they Gentiles from all over the Earth as it specifically says they are from every kindred and nation on Earth and they COME OUT of Great Tribulation.
That multitude does not exclude Jews - they are counted in. "Kindreds" is normally "tribes" referring to the tribes of Israel. The Gospel was gathering believers from everywhere it was preached - including Israel.

My teaching is not without difficulties, (nor is Rick's) but the difficulties need to be examined before they are summarily dismissed. Revelation is a difficult book to understand, & has a blessed significance for all who read it & take it to heart.

We are all affected by the "Zionist" interpretation of Scripture, with the situation in the Middle East. Are the nations surrounding Israel our enemies, or sinners who need the Gospel? Is the nation of Israel prophetically significant? I have read Romans 11. And I've read on to Romans 15.

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3. In Daniel the temple is rebuilt and the Antichrist stops the sacrifices after 3 1/2 years, in the "midst of the week," or in the middle of the future seven year (as in seven days to a week) tribulation.



It was not the Antichrist who stopped the sacrifices, it was Messiah who caused the sacrifice to cease, by his death and resurrection which rendered the sacrifices obsolete. Antichrist is not mentioned there at all. It was Messiah who confirmed the covenant with the Jews for one week from his baptism till the death of Stephen and the conversion of Cornelius, when the gospel was opened to the Gentiles. Edited by Invicta

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It was not the Antichrist who stopped the sacrifices, it was Messiah who caused the sacrifice to cease, by his death and resurrection which rendered the sacrifices obsolete. Antichrist is not mentioned there at all. It was Messiah who confirmed the covenant with the Jews for one week from his baptism till the death of Stephen and the conversion of Cornelius, when the gospel was opened to the Gentiles.


Isaiah 28:15, 18, "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

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Isaiah 28:15, 18, "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."


What has that to do with what I wrote?

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