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Lastly, Covenanter, there was nothing "ad hominem" about post #18. I was being transparent about what you believe, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.


What I believe is apparent in my posts. This thread is to discuss Revelation, not me.

Your arguments for an AD 90 date are not derived from Scripture, but from the ambiguous letter of Irenaeus - written in Greek but known only in Latin translation.
See this link. Edited by Covenanter

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What I believe is apparent in my posts. This thread is to discuss Revelation, not me.


When in 70 A.D. was 1/4 of mankind killed according to the Fourth Seal, 1/3 of all tree burned and all green grass burned up (First Trumpet), 1/3 of sea life killed (Second Trumpet), a 200 million man cavalry in the Sixth Trumpet which wiped out another 1/3 of mankind, the Fifth Angel who declares a battle in which the blood comes up to the horses' bridles, or how about the Second Vial in which God goes further than the Trumpet version and turn the entire sea to blood and kills everything in it? Or the Sixth Vial in which the Euphrates River is completely dried up only to be followed by the Seventh Vial in which 100 pound hailstones pound people into the ground? Let's not forget the Fourth Vial in which the sun burns people alive? When in 70 A.D. or even all of human history did these events occur?

I'm not "interpreting" anything. I'm simply reading the text and believing it for what it says - it says those things will happen, and you’re claiming the text doesn’t mean what it says. Edited by Rick Schworer

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While the date of when Revelation was written means everything to a Preterist, it's merely a side issue to a Futurist.

On the contrary - the futurist interpretation makes the opening verses meaningless.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

How can John's readers - companion(s) in tribulation keep those things which are written therein when the time is 2,000 years away???

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The more sure we are that we are right and we can never be wrong, the more likely we are wrong.


Then what do you do with Psalms 119:99,100?

"I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation."

"I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."

I am convinced that I am right in everything that I preach. Every God-called preacher is of the same persuasion. If he is not, then he ought not to be preaching and is probably not called of God. Edited by brosmith

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On the contrary - the futurist interpretation makes the opening verses meaningless.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

How can John's readers - companion(s) in tribulation keep those things which are written therein when the time is 2,000 years away???


As a Preterist, you stand the entire book of Revelation on its head because of your interpretation of Rev. 1:3. This is a common practice of any cult, and though I don't believe Preterism to be a cult, it behaves like one in this regard. It's like the Catholics teaching that we really are supposed to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood because, "That's what Jesus said in John 6!"

Your answer to the problems I raised in post #18, #25, and #27 is the same answer it always is: Revelation was written before 70 A.D. so everything in it has to have been fulfilled in 70 A.D. To hang a system of interpretation on this is to put yourself in a situation where you are continually explaining Revelation by saying it doesn't mean what it says.

As I've already stated, even if Revelation was written before 70 A.D., it doesn't change the fact that everything from Revelation 4:1 is yet future and has not yet been fulfilled, once again, please revisit posts #18, #25, and #27. Just like Matthew 24 wasn't fulfilled entirely in 70 A.D. either.

Rev. 1:3, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

The answer to your question is simple. I see three interpretations of Revelation 1:3:

1. Everything in Revelation was to occur very soon as we perceive time.

2. Everything in Revelation was to occur very soon as God perceives time.

3. Jesus Christ could return at any moment, and we need to be ready for when He does.

Out of the three, I think the one that fits best with the rest of the Bible and Revelation is number three. Number two has some validity to is as well, but number one is out because it doesn't fit with the weight of Scripture. A Preterist takes the square peg of Revelation and with every plague, curse, and as yet unfulfilled prophesy he tries to cram it into the round hole of his presupposition primarily based on one possible interpretation of one verse.

A futurist, for the most part, just takes the whole book for what it says. It's ironic: a Preterist takes Rev. 1:3 so literal, and then throws the rest of the book out when it comes to the literal interpretation. A Futurist typically thinks that Jesus just meant He could come back at any moment, and I suppose you could say we don’t that that verse literal enough, but then we take the rest of the book for exactly what it says.

Oh well, the Catholic says the same thing about how we interpret John 6. Edited by Rick Schworer

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I hope others will join in the discussion & keep it on topic. I can't tackle the whole of Revelation in one post. I hope we will progress & come to an understanding if not agreement of each other's position. We will certainly understand the Bible better as we relate Scriptures to each other.

We have already considered falling stars & heavenly blackout. (6th seal, compared with Olivet, Isaiah 13 & Ezek. 32.) In terms of interpretation I don't think we need to argue about the letters in Rev. 2 & 3. Every church down the ages should take the warnings & encouragements to heart - we have ears to hear. The heavenly visions of Rev. 4 & 5 are timeless.

There are some words where we assume we know the meaning, but in context a different meaning is intended.

e.g. "Earth" may mean the planet, the land of Israel, or soil, etc. The Greek "ge" (Strong 1093) is variously translated:
earth 188, land 42, ground 18, country 2, world 1

I am not seeking to "correct" the KJV, but to understand it correctly. "Earth" has different meanings:

Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev. 1:7 refers to the piercing of Jesus with the sword, prophesied in Zechariah. Are the kindreds of the earth the whole world population, or the tribes of the land of Israel? Is it the second coming at the end of time, or his AD 70 coming to judge the generation that rejected him? (See Micah 1.) Are Jesus words at his trial, quoting Dan. 7, significant?

Guided by Scripture, we see Rev. 1:7 as Jesus coming to judge that generation of rebellious Jews, rather than every tribe on the planet.

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Guided by Scripture, we see Rev. 1:7 as Jesus coming to judge that generation of rebellious Jews, rather than every tribe on the planet.


Zech. 14:1-4, 12, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."

That never happened in 70 A.D., and the Lord isn't coming to judge any Jews there, He's coming to save them; as in "look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:28)


Rev. 16:12-16, "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Not just Jews.


Rev. 19:11-21, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Not Jews.

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A futurist, for the most part, just takes the whole book for what it says. It's ironic: a Preterist takes Rev. 1:3 so literal, and then throws the rest of the book out when it comes to the literal interpretation. A Futurist typically thinks that Jesus just meant He could come back at any moment, and I suppose you could say we don’t that that verse literal enough, but then we take the rest of the book for exactly what it says.



Post milleniallists also teach that. They say you should read prophecy, not interprete it. They also ignore the fact thta some prophecy has a dual fulfillment. But then they are also futurists.

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Beside the fact that I didn't seen anyone claiming that they "could never be wrong" that sort of statement begs the question, are you completely sure of that? :saint2:



Oh there are some.

I have met Brethren who will not discuss any of their teachings, they will state their beliefs, however bizare and then walk away. One who has preached in our church at times, if you disagree with his interpretation, will shout "You don't believe the scriptures." and turn on his heel and walk away.

They are so brainwashed with Darbyite teaching, they cannot consider any deviation. The fact that other Brethren may have a slightly different interpretation of some points is considered heresy.

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When in 70 A.D. was 1/4 of mankind killed according to the Fourth Seal, 1/3 of all tree burned and all green grass burned up (First Trumpet), 1/3 of sea life killed (Second Trumpet), a 200 million man cavalry in the Sixth Trumpet which wiped out another 1/3 of mankind, the Fifth Angel who declares a battle in which the blood comes up to the horses' bridles, or how about the Second Vial in which God goes further than the Trumpet version and turn the entire sea to blood and kills everything in it? Or the Sixth Vial in which the Euphrates River is completely dried up only to be followed by the Seventh Vial in which 100 pound hailstones pound people into the ground? Let's not forget the Fourth Vial in which the sun burns people alive? When in 70 A.D. or even all of human history did these events occur?



The Brethren make much of the 200 million horsemen being literal horsemen and not tanks, etc.

The historicist view is that this refers to a people of 200,000,000 who were known for being horsemen.

Let us look at the difficulties of raising a cavalry of 200,000,000. The US had problems raising an army of less than 500,000 recently and that was with all the benefits of mechanised logistics.

There was one invasion mentioned by Herodotus when Xerxes invaded Greece. He had an army of 1-2 Million. He describes them drinking every river dry, and smaller rivers being drunk dry by the pack animals alone.

A calvary needed at least 10 supporting men for every horseman, infantry, logistics, paymasters, functionaries, etc. You would need food and provisions for 200,000,000 horsemen and their animals and about 1 billion support staff and their animals/transport. Not a viable interpretation.

However if you take the historicist view is that this refers to a people of 200,000,000 who were known for being horsemen, then this is much more likely.
.

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The historicist view is that this refers to a people of 200,000,000 who were known for being horsemen.

Let us look at the difficulties of raising a cavalry of 200,000,000. The US had problems raising an army of less than 500,000 recently and that was with all the benefits of mechanised logistics.

There was one invasion mentioned by Herodotus when Xerxes invaded Greece. He had an army of 1-2 Million. He describes them drinking every river dry, and smaller rivers being drunk dry by the pack animals alone.


Well if you believe the bible even King David could raise about a million and a half man army at one point.

"1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

Then in the time of King Asa he was able to actually raise an army of half a million or so just from two tribes and defeat an attacking army of over a million.

2 Chronicles 14:8-12 And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.Then Asa went out against him, and they set the battle in array in the valley of Zephathah at Mareshah. And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O LORD, thou art our God; let not man prevail against thee. So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.


The large numbers in ancient battles is one of several issues "scholars" have with biblical accounts. They claim it is impossible that the numbers were anywhere near that large in that time period. I guess that depends on who you believe. "Logistics" is a poor reason to reject the sizes of the armies in revelation unless your consistent and use "logistics" to "prove" the bible is wrong in the OT too as some scholars do.

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It seems there are some who believe the 200 million man army will be demonic in nature and not human. This is the first I've read of this view. Does anyone know more about this?

I know nothing about the website I just found this on after googling, but I'll put it here for reference:

http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/god%E2%80%99s-war-on-terror%E2%80%A6-the-200-million-man-army/

REVELATION Chapter 9 Verses 13-21


Summary:


The sixth angel is told to loose 4 angels bound on the banks of the Euphrates river. (These are evil angels because good ones do not have to stay bound.) The 4 angels loose a 200 million man army which are NOT humans, but demonic spirits riding on strange horse-like beasts. The demons have breastplates of fire, jacinth (red-orange-blue), and brimstone. . The heads of horses are like lions and breathe fire, smoke, and brimstone. The tails of the horses are like serpents. They have been commanded to kill 1/3 of mankind.

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Oh there are some.

I have met Brethren who will not discuss any of their teachings, they will state their beliefs, however bizare and then walk away. One who has preached in our church at times, if you disagree with his interpretation, will shout "You don't believe the scriptures." and turn on his heel and walk away.

They are so brainwashed with Darbyite teaching, they cannot consider any deviation. The fact that other Brethren may have a slightly different interpretation of some points is considered heresy.


I don't know any "brethren", I don't think there are many in the USA, I have read one book written by somebody in england affiliated with "the brethren" in the 40's I think and it seemed doctrinally pretty sound. The book wasn't related to prophesy but doctrinally that author seemed like he could just as easily be IFB on the topics it dealt with. Other than that I don't know much about their doctrine. I can sympathize with not arguing the point with people who are not going to change their minds anyway. As for myself, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, depends on what mood I am in. :wink

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It seems there are some who believe the 200 million man army will be demonic in nature and not human. This is the first I've read of this view. Does anyone know more about this?


I have a inclination toward that position myself, but don't have a EXTREMELY firm opinion one way or another. I wouldn't rule either possibility out completely. One thing that could possibly be significant and one of the reasons I tend to lean that way is that in verse 20 of chapter 9 it refers to this and several of the preceding events as "plagues". To me that would be a very peculiar expression to use to describe a human army.

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I have a inclination toward that position myself, but don't have a EXTREMELY firm opinion one way or another. I wouldn't rule either possibility out completely. One thing that could possibly be significant and one of the reasons I tend to lean that way is that in verse 20 of chapter 9 it refers to this and several of the preceding events as "plagues". To me that would be a very peculiar expression to use to describe a human army.

Agreed. As I've been looking into this I can see the merit of giving this consideration, mainly for the reason you mention.

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I don't think it can be anything but a satanic army of demons. Horses as we know it, would be too demanding on resources, as Invicta has already pointed out. At the same time, so would an army of tanks. Just replace water, food, and support for fuel, ammo, and mechanics. The Sixth Trumpet follows the Fifth, and in the Fifth you have the flying locusts out of the Bottomless Pit. They're satanic, so I don't see why the Sixth Trumpet beings aren't as well; the description, at face value, is certainly something that looks demonic:

Rev. 9:14-19, "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

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It seems there are some who believe the 200 million man army will be demonic in nature and not human. This is the first I've read of this view. Does anyone know more about this?


This is the view I've always heard, John, from my youth.

Of course, there's always the Chinese... :saint2:

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I hesitate to join in a random discussion on Revelation - we need an overview before going into detail.

This is a suggestion, not an exegesis:

Rev. 9 is plagues from the Abyss - clearly demonic - possibly driving insects as Legion drive the swine. Insects plagued the Egyptians. Also Joel records a plague of locusts - the various names likely being locust instars. (development stages.) Desert locust

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Now we agree, we can move forward ... :grouphug:

Ah, now ain't it sweet? :clapping:

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.


Here's a thought about the locusts that I heard many years ago...how about helicopters?

I'm not sure how the shape fits in, but the crowns of gold could be the propellers; faces could be painted on them, with long hair (like planes during the world wars), breastplates would be the metal, sound of the wings the propellers, tails like scorpions could be some kind of ray shot from the end of the chopper...

I know it's only a supposition, but, actually, so is a lot of what we think about certain things in Rev.

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This is the view I've always heard, John, from my youth.

Of course, there's always the Chinese... :saint2:


Most of what I've read and heard over the years went with the Chinese. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, some said it would be a combined force from the Soviet Union and China. I recall some pointed out that the Soviet Union still had some calvary units and this was their "proof" the Soviet Union would be a part of a communist bloc 200 million man army, which would include communist China.

To me, the wording of Scripture didn't seem to fit this but I've never had an interest into digging into it. I know some tried to say the wording actually was John's attempt to describe tanks and armour and such, but again, that didn't seem right to me either.

This is similar to those who proclaim the end-times could not have come until now because without nuclear weapons many of the things written in Revelation would be impossible. My question: Impossible with God???

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The 7 seals ??????

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Note first that Christ prevailed (Gk ἐνίκησεν - nikao) and that the white horseman went forth conquering, and to conquer. (nikao, nikao) He has prevailed, is conquering & will conquer. He begins by opening the seals.

Why should we think of the white horseman as antichrist.

Remember his warning to the women of Jerusalem (Luke 23:27ff), which echoed Isaiah's warning in Isaiah 2.

The seals culminate in that cry of terror Jesus prophesied:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the *earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

*earth (Gk ge which doesn't always mean the whole planet.) See my post #33 on Rev. 1:7.

Jesus is showing John a "picture book" of his judgement to come of Jerusalem. We already all agree that the seals agree with the Olivet prophecy.

My suggested scheme:
Seals - Jesus reveals his plans for judgement

Trumpets - the warning sounds out
Note the temple & Jerusalem are still standing, & the Law & Prophets - aka Moses & Elijah - witness against them, before the vials are poured out. (Rev. 11)
Note Luke 16:31.

Vials - his wrath is poured out.

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