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Now we agree, we can move forward ... :grouphug:

Ah, now ain't it sweet? :clapping:

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.


Here's a thought about the locusts that I heard many years ago...how about helicopters?

I'm not sure how the shape fits in, but the crowns of gold could be the propellers; faces could be painted on them, with long hair (like planes during the world wars), breastplates would be the metal, sound of the wings the propellers, tails like scorpions could be some kind of ray shot from the end of the chopper...

I know it's only a supposition, but, actually, so is a lot of what we think about certain things in Rev.
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This is the view I've always heard, John, from my youth.

Of course, there's always the Chinese... :saint2:


Most of what I've read and heard over the years went with the Chinese. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, some said it would be a combined force from the Soviet Union and China. I recall some pointed out that the Soviet Union still had some calvary units and this was their "proof" the Soviet Union would be a part of a communist bloc 200 million man army, which would include communist China.

To me, the wording of Scripture didn't seem to fit this but I've never had an interest into digging into it. I know some tried to say the wording actually was John's attempt to describe tanks and armour and such, but again, that didn't seem right to me either.

This is similar to those who proclaim the end-times could not have come until now because without nuclear weapons many of the things written in Revelation would be impossible. My question: Impossible with God???
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The 7 seals ??????

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Note first that Christ prevailed (Gk ἐνίκησεν - nikao) and that the white horseman went forth conquering, and to conquer. (nikao, nikao) He has prevailed, is conquering & will conquer. He begins by opening the seals.

Why should we think of the white horseman as antichrist.

Remember his warning to the women of Jerusalem (Luke 23:27ff), which echoed Isaiah's warning in Isaiah 2.

The seals culminate in that cry of terror Jesus prophesied:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the *earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

*earth (Gk ge which doesn't always mean the whole planet.) See my post #33 on Rev. 1:7.

Jesus is showing John a "picture book" of his judgement to come of Jerusalem. We already all agree that the seals agree with the Olivet prophecy.

My suggested scheme:
Seals - Jesus reveals his plans for judgement

Trumpets - the warning sounds out
Note the temple & Jerusalem are still standing, & the Law & Prophets - aka Moses & Elijah - witness against them, before the vials are poured out. (Rev. 11)
Note Luke 16:31.

Vials - his wrath is poured out.

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The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 has a bow with no arrows, and he is followed by other riders that spell nothing but death and destruction for a large population of the Earth. If the rider is Christ, and He is truly "conquering," then why the death and destruction and why all the martyrs with the Fifth Seal?

If the rider is a future antichrist, it fits much better. He conquers peaceably, with flattery, according to Daniel, which is why he doesn't have any arrows. But what follows him is martyrs and the judgment of God on this Earth.

I agree that the Sixth Seal lines up very well with the parts of the Olivet prophesy that refer to the Second Coming, because the Sixth and Seventh Seal are the Second Coming (see chart in post #3). In post #34 I showed verses that demonstrate that Revelation 1:7 does in fact refer to more than just the tribes of Israel.

Good discussion.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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In post #34 I showed verses that demonstrate that Revelation 1:7 does in fact refer to more than just the tribes of Israel.


In Zechariah, a third part of the Jews are delivered. Those who were not delivered, perished because of the civil war within Jerusalem, before the final destruction. The fight against Jerusalem was effectively internal, by the warring factions.

I don't want to argue too many points, but think it best to state our case & allow Nathaniel (are you still reading this?) & others to search the Scriptures with our guidance.
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Locusts creep me out.


They are not a creeping thing. They were permitted as food in the OT and John the Baptist lived on them with wild honey. I can remember someone saying he had seen candied grasshoppers in Harrods store in London.
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Candied grasshoppers creep me out too.

Hey, don't mess this up, Invicta, we're trying to build a little unity and common ground here. The only thing we've all managed to agree on so far in this thread is that locusts are creepy, and you come in to protest that? :D

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Well if you believe the bible even King David could raise about a million and a half man army at one point.

"1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

Then in the time of King Asa he was able to actually raise an army of half a million or so just from two tribes and defeat an attacking army of over a million.

2 Chronicles 14:8-12 And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.Then Asa went out against him, and they set the battle in array in the valley of Zephathah at Mareshah. And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O LORD, thou art our God; let not man prevail against thee. So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.


The large numbers in ancient battles is one of several issues "scholars" have with biblical accounts. They claim it is impossible that the numbers were anywhere near that large in that time period. I guess that depends on who you believe. "Logistics" is a poor reason to reject the sizes of the armies in revelation unless your consistent and use "logistics" to "prove" the bible is wrong in the OT too as some scholars do.


Did David have horsemen? I thought horses were forbidden to the Israelites? D=Sorry if I an wrong. I believe that Solomon was the first to use horses. He was also an arms trader, buying chariots from the Egyptians and selling them on.

Zerah managed to invade with 1,000,000 troops. 9 ¶ And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.
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Zerah managed to invade with 1,000,000 troops. 9 ¶ And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.


That is 2 Chron: 14.
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We have seen that the white horseman is Christ himself, victorious, & continuing to conquer. A bow without arrows is useless, but that is NOT the picture. Remember Psalm 45?

3 Gird thy sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

Seals 2, 3 & 4 reveal the judgement on his enemies. Seal 5 gives the reason.

Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What did Jesus say?

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The long prophesied judgment on the Jews who rejected the prophets, & their Messiah, & his Gospel preachers, is about to fall.

The 6th seal reveals the terror they will feel as they suffer the wrath of the Lamb of God.

As Rev. 7 opens, we see the answer to another situation - the believers trapped in Jerusalem as the city awaits its judgment. The servants of God are sealed for their protection. They will not suffer with the rebellious city.

The result - the triumphant believers around the throne! They have been rescued from the great tribulation that fell on the city. The martyrs live & reign with Christ!

Hallelujah! In anticipation of the NH&NE Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Before we leave the seals, Rev. 8 begins with silence, & prayer.

The trumpets are a partial judgment, so represent a warning, yet Rev 9:20 ... the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not....

Edited by Covenanter
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Seals 2, 3 & 4 reveal the judgement on his enemies. Seal 5 gives the reason.


I'm curious as to how you explain seals two through four from your perspective:

Rev. 6:3-8, "And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Edited by Rick Schworer
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"Earth" (Gk "ge") does not necessarily mean the planet. John was concerned with the Gospel to the planet (the nations) - he had the great commission. However, he knew the Olivet prophecy of judgment for the rebellious Jews in the land of Israel. The numbers are of the prophesied judgemnt.

We need to compare the vision with Zechariah's horsemen.

Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
....
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
12 ¶ Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me [with] good words [and] comfortable words.

Zechariah's vision was to encourage the Jews who had returned to get of with rebuilding the temple & the city ready for Messiah.

The horsemen are angelic beings, keeping watch on the land & reporting the the LORD.

We see them again in Z.6. They quieten the enemies in north & south, Babylonia & Egypt, so the rebuilding can proceed in peace, ready for Joshua (Jesus) the priest king - one of only 2 priest-kings in the OT. The other is Melchizedek, the pre-incarnate Christ.

Zec 6:8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
....
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

By the time of John's visions, the rebellion of the Jews against their Christ is such that the watching horsemen-angels return for judgment.

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