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Thank you. I know of Milton the poet but I'm not that familiar with Pardise Lost.


I was recently lent a book of Milton's poems. "Paradise Lost" is from pages 113 to 385. A few years ago, after the BBC read aloud the whole Bible (AV) in 15 minute sections, they read "Paradise Lost." It took several weeks.

I still haven't read it. Perhaps I would if I take it to my desert island with 8 records ...
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:11backtotopic:

I hope you all agree that Jesus was primarily talking about the AD 70 destruction in his Olivet prophecy, even if you see details that you consider yet to be fulfilled.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
.....
29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus lived the Old Covenant Scriptures, often simply quoting them; at other times giving the meaning.

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

To understand, rather than interpret, Mat. 24 we need to refer to the related OT Scriptures. The fall or darkening of sun moon & stars is associated with the end of an great empire or kingdom.

e.g. Babylon, to be overrun by the Medes:

Isa 13:1 ¶ The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
....
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
....
17 ¶ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it.

A very graphic prophecy of a successful invasion.

Also Egypt:

Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt,....
....
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
...
11 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

Jesus' prophecy is of the extinction of Israel as a nation, given in the same terms as Babylon & Egypt.

Peter declares the prophecy of Joel in similar language:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Those were the last days of Israel as a nation; & Peter gave a glorious Gospel call - whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

They were given a generation of 30-40 years to repent & call on the name of Jesus, before that great and notable day of the Lord when their lights would be extinguished.

They had seen the literal sun darkened while the Son of God hung on the cross. Would they take the warning, or would the lights of the nation be extinguished?

A greater than Jonah preached to them.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

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Israel is not extinct, and God always keeps His promises.

Brother Nathaniel, please understand that Covenanter is a Preterist. Meaning he believe that there is no such thing as a Great Tribulation as described by Jesus and spoken of in great detail in fifteen chapters of Revelation. He assigns all this to Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Though I have no idea what he does when it talks about 1/3 of the Earth's population being killed, 1/3 of life in the sea being killed, and 1/3 of everything green being burnt up. That never happened in 70 A.D.

There are so many prophesies that haven't been fufilled yet: When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about the 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

He doesn't believe in a Millennium either, though I do give him credit for believing in the future New Heavens and New Earth. If one does believe like Ian, at least he does have hope in that. He relegates all the wonderful prophesies of the Millennium to the NH & NE, ignoring the prophesies that are wonderful indeed, but clearly not of the NH & NE, such as people living to very old ages but still dying (no death in NH & NE) and Millennial prophesies of the sea being filled with the knowledge of the Lord (no sea in the NH & NE).

He would have you to combine the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment altogether in one general judgment. I'm not sure how he handles the Battle of Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog and the thousand years in between. I do know that he thinks the thousand years in Revelation 20 started in 70 A.D., and is still going on. This, of course, would mean that Satan was bound, right now, in the bottomless pit. As in bound during the Dark Ages as well, when Satan ruled the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe he got out for awhile or has a really long chain. In spite of all the war, suffering, and problems since Jesus left this Earth, Covenanter would have you to believe that Jesus is ruling the world right now and that we are in the Millennium. This ignores the fact that Paul calls Satan the god of this world.

Basically, in the end, Jesus said the events in Revelation were going to happen soon. This is what Covenanter bases everything on to backdate Revelation before 70 A.D. and squeeze all of the catastrophic events in Revelation to 70 A.D. Yes, Jesus said that, but He also said that things that happened in the Great Tribulation were so extreme that we've never seen them before and they'd never happen again. To assign that to Jerusalem getting sacked in 70 A.D. is to ignore Nebuchadnezzar's attack in 606 B.C. and Hitler's holocaust.

Another favorite attack is bringing up history and, most recently, claiming that Jesuits invented the idea of pre-Millennialism. I have no idea how pre-Millennialism would help the RCC, because the greatest soul winners over the last two hundred years have all been pre-Millennial and much of the time led people out of the Roman Catholic Church. The history argument against pre-Millennialism and Dispensations is an argument that is to try and get you out of your Bible. Historically, many theologians have been dead wrong, so why should we care? I care what the Bible says.

I have no idea what he thinks about the rapture. Maybe he thinks it happened in 70 A.D. as well, I'd like to know. In the Olivet Prophesy, Jesus talks about how when all these things happen, to look up for your redemption draweth nigh. If the Olivet was limited to only the destruction of Jerusalem, then those looking up saw nothing and were not delivered, and there was no redemption drawing nigh. If you believe Revelation 19 and several Old Testament passages you see Israel being surrounded by her enemies and Jesus Christ returning to Earth bodily and destroying those armies. THAT is redemption drawing nigh.

I'm not trying to smear Ian, and he's more than welcome to correct me if I've said he believes something here that he doesn't. I say all this because I feel it's only fair for you to know what you're getting into when you listen to him and I'd have no problem with someone exposing what I believe. I like Ian, and I know he loves the Lord and has a heart for helping people and spreading the Gospel, but he’s really off on his end times stuff.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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My beliefs are based on a careful study of Scripture. Note that Rick makes no attempt to argue from Scripture, only ad hominem from his own opinions.

Let's keep the discussion courteous, & led by Scripture.

1. Can anyone challenge from Scripture a pre-destruction date for Revelation? (Post #7)

2. Can anyone show from Scripture that Jesus' Olivet prophecy does not relate primarily to the destruction? (AD 70)

Edited by Covenanter
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He would have you to combine the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment altogether in one general judgment. I'm not sure how he handles the Battle of Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog and the thousand years in between. I do know that he thinks the thousand years in Revelation 20 started in 70 A.D., and is still going on. This, of course, would mean that Satan was bound, right now, in the bottomless pit. As in bound during the Dark Ages as well, when Satan ruled the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe he got out for awhile or has a really long chain. In spite of all the war, suffering, and problems since Jesus left this Earth, Covenanter would have you to believe that Jesus is ruling the world right now and that we are in the Millennium. This ignores the fact that Paul calls Satan the god of this world.

You have to give scriptural reasons why the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment are not different descriptions of the same event.

Basically, in the end, Jesus said the events in Revelation were going to happen soon. This is what Covenanter bases everything on to backdate Revelation before 70 A.D. and squeeze all of the catastrophic events in Revelation to 70 A.D. Yes, Jesus said that, but He also said that things that happened in the Great Tribulation were so extreme that we've never seen them before and they'd never happen again. To assign that to Jerusalem getting sacked in 70 A.D. is to ignore Nebuchadnezzar's attack in 606 B.C. and Hitler's holocaust.

Not so extreme, but such as. There is a difference as I posted recently. The tribulation in The Roman was "such as" never happened before or since. Not in intensity, but in type.

Another favorite attack is bringing up history and, most recently, claiming that Jesuits invented the idea of pre-Millennialism. I have no idea how pre-Millennialism would help the RCC, because the greatest soul winners over the last two hundred years have all been pre-Millennial and much of the time led people out of the Roman Catholic Church. The history argument against pre-Millennialism and Dispensations is an argument that is to try and get you out of your Bible. Historically, many theologians have been dead wrong, so why should we care? I care what the Bible says.

It is an historical fact, you can check it if you bother with reading. The Jesuits did not invent pre-millenialiism, but they did invent dispensationalism, and that is what emancipated the RCC by denying the previous teaching that the Pope was Antichrist and making him some future fictional figure. When that teaching came in to favour, the way was open to the RCC to elbow her war into popular thought as an valid Christian church. Incidentally, as I have already posted the RCC also introduced preterism which had the same effect, denying the pope his actual position as the Antichrist, or as he calls himself, The Vicar Of Christ, which means exactly the same thing.

I have no idea what he thinks about the rapture. Maybe he thinks it happened in 70 A.D. as well, I'd like to know. In the Olivet Prophesy, Jesus talks about how when all these things happen, to look up for your redemption draweth nigh. If the Olivet was limited to only the destruction of Jerusalem, then those looking up saw nothing and were not delivered, and there was no redemption drawing nigh. If you believe Revelation 19 and several Old Testament passages you see Israel being surrounded by her enemies and Jesus Christ returning to Earth bodily and destroying those armies. THAT is redemption drawing nigh.

Rapture is not a scriptural word so we don't have to think anything of it. Jesus will return to earth on the last day
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

and the dead in christ will rise and we shll join them in meeting the Lord in the air. The judgment will also occur on the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I'm not trying to smear Ian, and he's more than welcome to correct me if I've said he believes something here that he doesn't. I say all this because I feel it's only fair for you to know what you're getting into when you listen to him and I'd have no problem with someone exposing what I believe. I like Ian, and I know he loves the Lord and has a heart for helping people and spreading the Gospel, but he’s really off on his end times stuff.


I once discussed some of this with a pastor I disagreed with and said We cannot all be right, at the most only one can be correct, but we can all be wrong." He said, "I'm not wrong." he would not agree with any of the views expressed here, being an 'Hendriksen man'."

Remember that Bro Rick. The more sure we are that we are right and we can never be wrong, the more likely we are wrong.
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The more sure we are that we are right and we can never be wrong, the more likely we are wrong.


Beside the fact that I didn't seen anyone claiming that they "could never be wrong" that sort of statement begs the question, are you completely sure of that? :saint2: Edited by Seth-Doty
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I get a lot of stick for suggesting that AD 70 was a "coming" of Jesus in judgement of the generation that rejected him.

Our Pastor is currently preaching from Micah, who prophesies:

Mic 1:1 ¶ The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 ¶ Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, [and] as the waters [that are] poured down a steep place.
5 For the transgression of Jacob [is] all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What [is] the transgression of Jacob? [is it] not Samaria? and what [are] the high places of Judah? [are they] not Jerusalem?

That happened when the Assyrians overwhelmed the northern kingdom, & the Babylonians Judah.

The AD 70 coming is quite separate from the Lord Jesus coming at the end of time for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE.

Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?

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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?

Good point John. The internal evidence, some of which I have indicated, & the correspondence with the Olivet prophecies, is overwhelming for an pre-70 date.

Here is another point:

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?


Pre-70 A.D.: Verses in Revelation that state that the things in Revelation shall shortly come to pass, and the sense immanency of the verses regarding the return of Christ.

Post-70 A.D.: Nothing after Revelation 4 has happened yet, and Irenaeus said it was written around 90 A.D. From what I've read, Polycarp who was the bishop of the Smyrna church said that there was no church in Smyrna during the time of Paul. Paul died 67 A.D., therefore indicating a future date for Revelation at a time in which there was a church in Smyrna. Laodicea was destroyed by an earthquake in 60 A.D., hardly leaving it "rich and in need of nothing," for the next 25 years. If Revelation was written in 90 A.D. then there's no issue.

Even if Revelation was written before 70 A.D. it doesn't hurt the futurist argument, but if it was written in 90 A.D. it destroys the Preterist one. The things in Revelation haven't happened yet, and that's all there is to it. Flying scorpions out of the bottomless pit, the mark of the beast, 100 pound hailstones, 1/3 of the green grass, sea life, and human life destroyed, Satan being cast into the pit and chained up, the list goes on. This and a host of other things haven't happened yet, and they certainly didn't happen in 70 A.D.

In answer to a previous question about the judgments: at the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3) those who are being judged have Christ as their foundation and receive gold, silver, and precious stones as rewards. At the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20), people are resurrected from the sea and Hell and they either go into the Lake of Fire or not, there is no word of any of them having Christ as their foundation or receiving rewards, and they are judged based upon whether or not their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Lastly, those at the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25) are judged by Christ when He comes (70 A.D.????) based upon their treatment of "the brethren," and they are either allowed to live or are cast into everlasting punishment. The differences are very obvious to anyone willing to read the chapters and just study them for what they say without trying to twist them into a presupposed interpretation.

Lastly, Covenanter, there was nothing "ad hominem" about post #18. I was being transparent about what you believe, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. Edited by Rick Schworer
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Lastly, Covenanter, there was nothing "ad hominem" about post #18. I was being transparent about what you believe, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.


What I believe is apparent in my posts. This thread is to discuss Revelation, not me.

Your arguments for an AD 90 date are not derived from Scripture, but from the ambiguous letter of Irenaeus - written in Greek but known only in Latin translation.
See this link. Edited by Covenanter
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What I believe is apparent in my posts. This thread is to discuss Revelation, not me.


When in 70 A.D. was 1/4 of mankind killed according to the Fourth Seal, 1/3 of all tree burned and all green grass burned up (First Trumpet), 1/3 of sea life killed (Second Trumpet), a 200 million man cavalry in the Sixth Trumpet which wiped out another 1/3 of mankind, the Fifth Angel who declares a battle in which the blood comes up to the horses' bridles, or how about the Second Vial in which God goes further than the Trumpet version and turn the entire sea to blood and kills everything in it? Or the Sixth Vial in which the Euphrates River is completely dried up only to be followed by the Seventh Vial in which 100 pound hailstones pound people into the ground? Let's not forget the Fourth Vial in which the sun burns people alive? When in 70 A.D. or even all of human history did these events occur?

I'm not "interpreting" anything. I'm simply reading the text and believing it for what it says - it says those things will happen, and you’re claiming the text doesn’t mean what it says. Edited by Rick Schworer
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While the date of when Revelation was written means everything to a Preterist, it's merely a side issue to a Futurist.

On the contrary - the futurist interpretation makes the opening verses meaningless.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

How can John's readers - companion(s) in tribulation keep those things which are written therein when the time is 2,000 years away???
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