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Well, I re-read Revelation tonight. To Chapter 20 (I skimmed through 21-22) I was still confused (more than before). So I looked back at some other relating scriptures. I think the Holy Spirit lead me; because, it at least to me it seems to have pieced together like a puzzle. Though I don't know if I've heard of anything exactly like what I pieced together before.. I'm not done; I'm planning on continuing tomorrow. So I was hoping you all could check and let me know what you think so far. I'm posting Revelation 6-7 with the references (pieces) I think fit together in it. Hopefully you all will let me know if you think I'm on the right track or not. I've been wrong before and if I'm wrong; I'm pretty sure if you show me otherwise (with scripture). I would change my mind. I want to follow the Lord's doctrine, so my goal is to go where he leads me. I'll try to color the references and comments on this post only at the very least (sometimes i do the opposite or something different) in blue and enclose them with horizontal rules. Thanks; Ephesians 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.


Re 6:1 ¶ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


(Mt 24:6) (Mr 13:7) EDIT: may relate to (Mt 24:5)




Re 6:3 ¶ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Re 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


(Mt 24:7) (Mr 13:8)




Re 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.


(Mr 13:9) (Mt 24:9)



Re 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Re 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


(Mt 24:15)



Re 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


(Mr 13:19-20)



Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


(Mt 24:29) (Mr 13:24-25)



Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


(1Th 4:16) (Mt 24:30) (2Th 1:7)


Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


(1Th 1:10)



Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


(2Th 1:7) (Mr 13:27) (Mt 24:31)



Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,


(2Th 1:8) (Re 8)



Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Re 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


(Ro 11:25-26) and possibly (Ro 11:27-36)



Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


(2Th 1:10)



Re 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Re 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 7:13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Re 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Re 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Edited by Nathaniel
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Nathaniel, you have a wise approach - to relate other prophetic Scripture to Revelation. It's not just a book at the end of the Bible with a free-for-all interpretation.

It has a context, a date, people to whom it was written for their instruction, action & blessing.

We need to establish whether it was written before AD 70, or a later date. I believe the internal evidence, & its relation to other Scripture favours an early date.

The primary "evidence" for a late date is an ambiguous reference by Irenaeus, written in Greek but only known in Latin translation. There is no internal evidence for a late date.

The opening chapter is clearly addressed to John's companion(s) in tribulation. Certainly we should apply to ourselves & our own situation the principles & warnings, but should exercise extreme caution in seeing the prophecies fulfilled in the TV & newspapers.

You rightly relate the seals to Jesus' Olivet prophecy, but only refer to Matthew & Mark. Luke makes it clear that the prophecy referred to AD 70.

Luke 21:6 [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 ¶ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?
....
20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Jesus tells his Apostles that the "seals" signs do not indicate the immediate end.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by.

Before interpreting the seals, we need also to establish the identity of the white horseman. I consider he is the victorious Christ, not some future antichrist.

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What follows the man on the white horse in Revelation 6 is war, famine, death, chaos, and about fifteen chapters of destruction for the people of Earth.

What follows the Man on the white horse in Revelation 19 is a heavenly host, the demise the of the Beast, False Prophet, and Satan, final judgment for the wicked dead, and a New Heavens and New Earth.

Here's a chart you might find useful:

Revchart2.JPG

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What no one has explained to me it how stars can fall to earth without completely destroy it. Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Our sun is a relatively sall star but would bour up the earth long before it fell to earth. Or hpw someone could stamp the stars underfoot. Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

However it is quite clear from the scriptures that stars represent People, Leaders.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


And in Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

As well as Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Not to mention Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

In prophecy stars refer to people.

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What follows the man on the white horse in Revelation 6 is war, famine, death, chaos, and about fifteen chapters of destruction for the people of Earth.

You're jumping into interpretation before establishing the basics. Nathaniel wants to understand, not to take your or my interpretation on trust.

1st seal - white horse - victory - the triumphant risen Christ.
2nd - war
3rd - famine
4th - death
5th - the martyrs in heaven calling for judgement on their persecutors
6th - earthquakes & extraordinary signs
fulfillment of Isaiah's & Jesus' prophecies:
Rev. 6:15-end & compare Isaiah 2:10-end & Luke 21:23 & Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

We MUST primarily consider the Olivet prophecy as fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem (in AD 70) as Luke makes very clear. If Revelation ties in with Olivet as you agree, then Revelation is before AD 70.

still 6th seal, 144,000 Jews delivered before the destruction
martyrs in glory, dwelling in the heavenly temple with the Lamb as their shepherd.
7th seal - Silence in heaven as the saints pray presumably for judgement on the wicked, as they prayed in 5th seal




What follows the Man on the white horse in Revelation 19 is a heavenly host, the demise the of the Beast, False Prophet, and Satan, final judgment for the wicked dead, and a New Heavens and New Earth.

The Olivet judgement is complete, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Christ now turns his attention to the nations, the time interval being unspecified - 1,000 years or a day - it's not revealed.

What we do know is that that rod of iron will be final. (See Ps. 2) He's ruling pottery!
Rev. 20 is a summary - the power of Satan is broken & the Gospel goes out to the nations; the martyred saints are seen in reigning heavenly glory, not on earth.

The fire from heaven that destroys the wicked & delivers the saints on earth corresponds to the second coming of Christ in 2 Thes. 1.

Jesus explains the first resurrection (salvation) in John 5:24 on, & the second resurrection (to life or damnation) in John 5:28-9.



But that is going too fast for a proper study. I had to respond to Rick.

We have a complete Bible, & there are many Scriptures to consider.
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I agree with Invicta that stars are people - leaders, & when they fall, they are disgraced/killed.

The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;

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I agree with Invicta that stars are people - leaders, & when they fall, they are disgraced/killed.

The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;


That is interesting.
That would seem to explain quite a few verses like these;

(Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?)

(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:)

(Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.)

When are you thinking the resurrection is at then? I'm not seeing how Jesus could have come and taken his wrath already; because, I thought the wrath wouldn't start until have the 144,000 Jews were sealed at the coming of the 4 angels. Which is when I thought was when we would be "raptured" Then I thought the wrath would start at the opening of the seventh seal; and the previous 6 seals would be the tribulation. (2Th 1:7; 1Th 4:16; 1Th 4:17; Mt 24:31; Re 7:9)

And also it seems I didn't correctly apply this last night. When I reread it today it was really obvious to me the application. Not sure how I missed it.. :eek:puzzled3: As its obvious I think even if one was wrong about the Jews', if they believe in Jesus; they wouldn't be in the Synagogue of Satan. (Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.)

Especially because If one looks at John; I think it becomes exceedingly clear what was meant.

(Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.)

So there is a flaw now, in what I thought last night. Which I can't figure out at this point. As I was using that scripture for most of my basis on The Church and Israel being separate. The only explanation I could think of would be the sealed are of fleshly Israel. Which isn't seeming very plausible to me; though there is (Ro 11:17-36) which could support it I think.

Also Invicta that is interesting too; it seems that people can be called stars. It seems most plausible to me at this point. Though not because stars are bigger; as, I think God could have made some really small stars we don't know about.

Rick: Thanks for the post; but, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to tell me. Edited by Nathaniel
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Also Invicta that is interesting too; it seems that people can be called stars. It seems most plausible to me at this point. Though not because stars are bigger; as, I think God could have made some really small stars we don't know about.


I agree that stars in prophecy often are symbolic of important people or angels, but I largely disagree with the majority of what else has been posted.
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The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe.

Edited by Wilchbla
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The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe.


I've never heard of this before. Could you explain?

Also, who is John Milton and what does he have to do with this?
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The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you. The angel idea is interesting, I wouldn't mind hearing more of it. I am confused on Re 12:1 also. Maybe you could shed some light on that :) (Also thanks for your concern, I'm comparing it all with scripture. Scripture has to say it, or I wont believe it. (Though at times I've been wrong before as above.) So I try to be extra careful; (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone.) :D I believe the Holy Spirit will guide me to the answer and keep me on the right path.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe. Thanks for the Joel 3:15, I wasn't aware of it (If I was at any point; as relating to revelation) I'll might investigate it further tonight or possibly another day; If it is the Lord's will.

Edited by Nathaniel
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I've never heard of this before. Could you explain?

Also, who is John Milton and what does he have to do with this?


John Milton was an English poet who was born around the time the KJV was translated and whose most famous work is Paradise Lost. In Paradise Lost he has Satan already being cast out of heaven along with his angels. In other words, he has the war in Revelation already taking place in the past. Through ignorance (knowingly or unknowingly) this teaching has been incorporated into biblical theology (just like much of Dantes Inferno) over the years to where now Christians think it's the truth even though it's not taught in scripture. Satan is not in hell ruling and giving commands to his angels and the war in heaven is yet future. Not only will Satan deceive most of the world during the tribulation but he will end up deceiving another 1/3 of the angels along the way.
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Rev. 12:1 is a reference to the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the tribes of Israel. Here is a case where "stars" could represent people but even in this case each tribe could be represented by an angel just like each of the seven churches in Rev. Chapters 1-3 are represented by angels and the nation of Israel is represented by Michael the Archangel. And don't forget, even though soul winners are said to shine as the stars in the firmanent (dan. 12:3) the scripture also says that we shall be as the angels when we get to heaven (Matt. 22:30).
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John Milton was an English poet who was born around the time the KJV was translated and whose most famous work is Paradise Lost. In Paradise Lost he has Satan already being cast out of heaven along with his angels. In other words, he has the war in Revelation already taking place in the past. Through ignorance (knowingly or unknowingly) this teaching has been incorporated into biblical theology (just like much of Dantes Inferno) over the years to where now Christians think it's the truth even though it's not taught in scripture. Satan is not in hell ruling and giving commands to his angels and the war in heaven is yet future. Not only will Satan deceive most of the world during the tribulation but he will end up deceiving another 1/3 of the angels along the way.


Thank you. I know of Milton the poet but I'm not that familiar with Pardise Lost.

You are right, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate Satan is in hell ruling. There is also plenty of evidence Satan has access to heaven and that he's a threat to us today. I've not heard the idea that a third of the angels have fallen with Satan and yet another third will fall with him in the future. Could you elaborate upon that and give the Scritpure references so I could look into this?
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