The Invisible Church?

[irishman]

Irishman, by focusing on "invisible" rather than "universal" you are debating a straw man.

It's not a novel idea, but is in the 1689 Baptist Confession.

was that the Council of Trent? Or maybe the World Council of Churches? If you put your trust in them, you are mssing the mark. Even so, it smacks of ecumenicalism, which is obviously a lost doctrine today, Billy Graham would love it!

[irishman]

Yes, but if you hold to this position it is easier to keep your membership in line if you are the pastor, not quite so much x'plaining to do.......

Truth stands on its own merit--it needs very little defense from us!

[trc123]

Truth stands on its own merit--it needs very little defense from us!

Yes, truth does stand on its own merit; truth--not someones twisted interpretation. The facts man; just the facts!

[Annie]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something here, but don't we all agree that there are believers to be found all around the world, in a variety of denominations, local congregations, villages, mountains, and remote areas? Don't we all agree that there are believers who do not attend local churches at all, due to physical ailments, spiritual lethargy, job constraints, and a whole host of other reasons? Is this body of believers "visible" to our eyes, in that we can see it all at once as a group of believers with the boundary between it and the rest of the population clearly delineated? When we see a person at the grocery store, in the subway, walking along the street, can we tell if he is a member of this body? Maybe sometimes we think we know; maybe we can find out by talking to the person (who might give us a false idea about his salvation anyway); maybe, maybe, maybe...but we cannot see the heart of anyone. We can't even know for sure that all of the professing believers in our own congregation are truly a part of the "universal church," Christ's own who will live with Him forever. It's the whole "wheat and tares" concept...We won't know for sure until the harvest.

So, where exactly is the disagreement here? There is indeed a "universal church" which is "invisible" to our eyes until the end of time. This fact does not take away the necessity for us to be involved in and accountable to local expressions of this universal church. Why get hung up on the "catholic" thing, just because the RCC has hijacked the term? There really and truly is a holy catholic (little "c") church: the body of true believers who belong to Christ, which stretches all around the world and will be revealed someday.

I guess I just don't see where the disagreement lies.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Annie

[Bro Jim]

Invisible church, isn't that a bunch of undercover Christians?

You know those on Sunday morning you can't get them out from under the covers.

[Brother Rick]

I guess I just don't see where the disagreement lies.

I've been having a hard time with that too. I think it has something to do with the idea that the "Baptist church is the only true church", and I think these brothers feel that if we refer to all Christians as being in "the church" it somehow denies that. I also think it's a reactionary stance against Catholicism and Ecumenicalism. Regardless the reason, it's unbiblical to say there's no such thing as an invisible, universal church consisting of all the members of the body of Christ, both living and dead.

I would say IFBs are the closest things to a true New Testament church today, but that's just talking about the local church; completely different subject. Edited January 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Part of it is that "invisible church" has a bad sound to it today and for many saying "universal church" sounds too Catholic. Of course, using that line of thought, we shouldn't be using and agreeing with prayer, the Bible and other things Catholics use and have statements about.

Each local church is a "body part" of the overall body of Christ, which is His Church. Myself, I wouldn't call it "invisible" nor would I call it "universal", I would simply call His Church, the body of Christ, as does Scripture, and be thankful that our local church is a part of that body of Christ, His Church.

[Annie]

Part of it is that "invisible church" has a bad sound to it today and for many saying "universal church" sounds too Catholic. Of course, using that line of thought, we shouldn't be using and agreeing with prayer, the Bible and other things Catholics use and have statements about.

Each local church is a "body part" of the overall body of Christ, which is His Church. Myself, I wouldn't call it "invisible" nor would I call it "universal", I would simply call His Church, the body of Christ, as does Scripture, and be thankful that our local church is a part of that body of Christ, His Church.

I see what you're saying, John, and agree with you about local churches. I just think it's weird that anyone would try to deny the existence of the "church we cannot see" when they know full well that it exists. I don't think "invisible church" has a bad sound to it at all...When we can't see something, it's invisible. We can't possibly visualize, let alone actually see everyone, living and dead, who constitute Christ's church; therefore, that group is invisible to us. Is there a dubious connotation (widespread use of the word by people who refuse to recognize the importance of local church accountability) that I'm missing?

I think it's important to realize that the "catholic church" was indeed the "true church" (not to be confused with the invisible church) until it became defined by the corrupted doctrines which identify it today. We don't have to be afraid to use the term catholic in its true sense, if we are conversing with people who understand its meaning. No, I wouldn't go around telling people in general that I'm a "member of the catholic church," since that term could be confusing.

[trc123]

That Annie sure makes a lot of sense!

[JerryNumbers]

Many Bible Believers will not hold to this elitest Baptist tradition that doesn't have the Scriptural evidence to fill a thimble.

Oh, but the Bible backs it up, its not a tradition of men, its is from God, as I stated, I know that many will not accept it, much like those that hang onto the invisible church theory.

[irishman]

I see that there is much confusion as to the universal, or invisible church. I think I know why...
Because they ain't no such thing!

As Annie stated, we cannot visibly see other congregations in other places, but they are considered visible (though not to us of course). That need not even be explained.

I have done my best to clarify this, and so I will make one more stab at it, then leave those who are confused to their own confusion (unless a burning inside compels me to say more!)

First realize that there are 79 verses in the Bible that mention the church, almost all of which refer to a local assembly. With that said, i would like to give it to Mr. Webster for a few definitions, with a few scriptures:

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


The "general assembly", according to Webster:

GEN'ERAL, a. [L. generalis, from genus, a kind.]

1. Properly, relating to a whole genus or kind; and hence, relating to a whole class or order. Thus we speak of a general law of the animal or vegetable economy. This word, though from genus, kind, is used to express whatever is common to an order, class, kind, sort or species, or to any company or association of individuals.

2. Comprehending many species or individuals; not special or particular; as, it is not logical to draw a general inference or conclusion from a particular fact.

3. Lax in signification; not restrained or limited to a particular import; not specific; as a loose and general expression.

4. Public; common; relating to or comprehending the whole community; as the general interest or safety of a nation.

5. Common to many or the greatest number; as a general opinion; a general custom.

6. Not directed to a single object.

If the same thing be peculiarly evil, that general aversion will be turned into a particular hatred against it.

7. Having a relation to all; common to the whole. Adam, our general sire.

8. Extensive, though not universal; common; usual.


(Especially see meaning number 8.)
Many of the other definitions refer to non applicable references (such as a military general, etc.)

Now, to define "Assembly"

ASSEM'BLY, n.

1. A company or collection of individuals, in the same place; usually for the same purpose.

2. A congregation or religious society convened.

that clarified, read the verse again.

Then, read 1 Tim. 3:15


Now, turn to 1 Tim. 3:15

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Note "The House of God" (church), and "the pillar and ground of the truth

This is a local church, the Body; the House of God. It is "the pillar and ground of truth"

Again. most every mention of "church" in the Bible is a local church where men meet for various services. There is no universal meeting place for a universal or invisible church.


by the way, that Is scriptural.

Edited January 14, 2011 by irishman

[Brother Rick]

Oh, but the Bible backs it up, its not a tradition of men, its is from God, as I stated, I know that many will not accept it, much like those that hang onto the invisible church theory.

Prove it, I've already proved my side as being scriptural. Edited January 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Brother Rick]

Now, turn to 1 Tim. 3:15

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Note "The House of God" (church), and "the pillar and ground of the truth

This is a local church, the Body; the House of God. It is "the pillar and ground of truth"

Again. most every mention of "church" in the Bible is a local church where men meet for various services. There is no universal meeting place for a universal or invisible church.


by the way, that Is scriptural.

I agree that I Tim. 3:15 is a reference to the local church. Click here.

Brother, every single Christian is part of the body of Christ the moment they get saved. The spiritual body of Christ and the spiritual church are the same thing, the Bible is so very clear on this. Click here. Therefore, people who are saved are members of the church, whether or not they are members of a church.

Read the verses.

[Annie]

Good post, Rick. Rather that pulling out Webster's Dictionary to define just one aspect of the word church, it would be better to look at the word in Scripture itself: ekklesia, Strong's G1577. Here is the definition:

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b ) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The word ekklesia obviously encompasses what we could call the "invisible church": the "whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth." The verse in Hebrews mentioned by irishman (12:23) actually strengthens this point, when taken in context. It's talking about the heavenly Jerusalem where all of the saints will gather, not a "local church" setting. And to whom was Hebrews written? A group of people which was scattered throughout the Roman empire, not a single local church. So, if a scattered people can be referred to as a "general assembly" without being physically together, what does that do to irishman's line of reasoning?

So...Yes, "the church" can refer to a local assembly of believers, the building in which the local assembly meets, and the general assembly that will all meet in the new Jerusalem someday (all believers past, present, and future). Right, irishman?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Annie

[1Timothy115]

I'm more concerned with when the visible church becomes invisible to the world but, that's another thread.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.