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The Invisible Church?


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The Invisible Church?

I hear much today about the Universal invisible church, and how every believer everywhere is a part of the body of Christ. First let me say that the word “Catholic” means “Universal”! The Catholics boast that the priests “preach” the same message worldwide, so that if they are traveling, they can get the same message in any Catholic church they go to. I was told this by a devout catholic, so it is heresy, but it sounds like something they would come up with! Anyway, it is no spectacular thing to be part of anything that is world-wide, or “universal”. The name or title itself implies that the invisible congregation is made up of many different faiths, and they do not agree, yet they walk together! All that aside, let me ask a few question to the proponents of the invisible church theory:
Does this invisible church do visible works? Do they win invisible souls? It looks as if they do. Do they give invisible tithes? Or send out invisible missionaries? The “invisible church theory is among the most ridicules theories I have ever heard. I hope they have visible pastors!

This invisible church, a world-wide partnership, is it a baptizing church? Do they do what the Bible commands and at least attempt to glorify and magnify the Father? (Not their father, but ours!). Some seem to think that they can be saved and yet be anything they wish to be, or do anything that they want if they can squeeze it in to the gospel somewhere. Is this the attitude a truly born-again believer? Many of them are merely social clubs, and their work for the Lord is “invisible” too, or non-existent! Yet you claim that they are a bona fide New testament church? No, there is no invisible church, only a number of local churches all over the world with visible congregations that do visible works. Go ahead, when one of your loved one’s is sick and dying--call upon the “invisible” pastor and see what good it does! Where does the invisible church meet? It may be hard to get hold of them when needed.

Friends, this invisible church theory borders on the absurd. There can be no such thing as an invisible church, since the true meaning for a church is a “called out assembly” of believers separated unto the Lord for His work. A church must have people to be a church; it must have a meeting place (not necessarily a building); it must come together for the praise and glory of God; can an invisible church do that? Every man that deems himself a member of the invisible church has a local assembly somewhere, but apparently denies that it is a church! Let me re-phrase that, every man that meets with others in any location for the praise and glory of the Father, is usually a member of a local church; if not, he is not right with God, and not fit to be called a follower of Christ. Even if he breaks away and starts his own church because he doesn’t like the way things are done, he has become a local church himself! Does he go to China and encourage them to come to his church in the U. S. A.? He has to go to his locality for a congregation, and thereby becomes a local church.

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The Invisible Church?

I hear much today about the Universal invisible church, and how every believer everywhere is a part of the body of Christ.

Who are these people calling it a "Universal invisible church"? I'm not familiar with this.

This invisible church, a world-wide partnership, is it a baptizing church?

Who says there's a "partnership"?

Some seem to think that they can be saved and yet be anything they wish to be, or do anything that they want if they can squeeze it in to the gospel somewhere. Is this the attitude a truly born-again believer? Many of them are merely social clubs, and their work for the Lord is “invisible” too, or non-existent! Yet you claim that they are a bona fide New testament church?


Do you have lost people who attend your church? I'm sure there are in mine. I would also dare say there are a few...very few mind you, born again blood washed believers in some of those social clubs. When Jesus comes back, He's not going to be calling social clubs or even IFB New Testament local churches home. He's coming to get the bloodwashed believers. These only.... are the body of Christ. Any lost people in your local church or mine will be left behind.
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Who are these people calling it a "Universal invisible church"? I'm not familiar with this.


The "invisible church" has already been mentioned here on this board. it is a rather common teaching among some.



Who says there's a "partnership"?

I called it a "partnership" myself, because it is not local church. what is it? I don't know. it is invisible!

Do you have lost people who attend your church? I'm sure there are in mine. I would also dare say there are a few...very few mind you, born again blood washed believers in some of those social clubs. When Jesus comes back, He's not going to be calling social clubs or even IFB New Testament local churches home. He's coming to get the bloodwashed believers. These only.... are the body of Christ. Any lost people in your local church or mine will be left behind.


There are, no doubt, lost people in my church. i have no magnifying glass to check every one of them out, and couldn't tell anyway, most likely. I agree with you here, but each of them go to a local church, that is my point. the church is comprised of local churches all over the world. i am not promoting a specific church (although I feel that everyone should be Baptist!), but "the church" in general.

(First time I used multi-quote, pretty neat!) Edited by irishman
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Brother Irishman,

There wasn't any Bible in your OP, because you can't refute the truth of the Scriptures that everyone that is in the body of Christ is in the church. The two are one in the same, everyone in the unviversal church will be called up at the resurrection/rapture, but not everyone in the local church will.

That's all there is to it.

LINK

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Brother Irishman,

There wasn't any Bible in your OP, because you can't refute the truth of the Scriptures that everyone that is in the body of Christ is in the church. The two are one in the same, everyone in the unviversal church will be called up at the resurrection/rapture, but not everyone in the local church will.

That's all there is to it.

LINK

No disagreement there, Rick.

The OP is a "man of straw" argument from not understanding the essential point - all true Christians comprise one redeemed people of God in Christ, the strangers scattered throughout.... The focus for every congregation is Christ, who meets with his scattered people, & with those in solitary confinement. Immanuel ... God with us.
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The Invisible Church?

I hear much today about the Universal invisible church, and how every believer everywhere is a part of the body of Christ. First let me say that the word “Catholic” means “Universal”! The Catholics boast that the priests “preach” the same message worldwide, so that if they are traveling, they can get the same message in any Catholic church they go to. I was told this by a devout catholic, so it is heresy, but it sounds like something they would come up with! Anyway, it is no spectacular thing to be part of anything that is world-wide, or “universal”. The name or title itself implies that the invisible congregation is made up of many different faiths, and they do not agree, yet they walk together! All that aside, let me ask a few question to the proponents of the invisible church theory:
Does this invisible church do visible works? Do they win invisible souls? It looks as if they do. Do they give invisible tithes? Or send out invisible missionaries? The “invisible church theory is among the most ridicules theories I have ever heard. I hope they have visible pastors!

This invisible church, a world-wide partnership, is it a baptizing church? Do they do what the Bible commands and at least attempt to glorify and magnify the Father? (Not their father, but ours!). Some seem to think that they can be saved and yet be anything they wish to be, or do anything that they want if they can squeeze it in to the gospel somewhere. Is this the attitude a truly born-again believer? Many of them are merely social clubs, and their work for the Lord is “invisible” too, or non-existent! Yet you claim that they are a bona fide New testament church? No, there is no invisible church, only a number of local churches all over the world with visible congregations that do visible works. Go ahead, when one of your loved one’s is sick and dying--call upon the “invisible” pastor and see what good it does! Where does the invisible church meet? It may be hard to get hold of them when needed.

Friends, this invisible church theory borders on the absurd. There can be no such thing as an invisible church, since the true meaning for a church is a “called out assembly” of believers separated unto the Lord for His work. A church must have people to be a church; it must have a meeting place (not necessarily a building); it must come together for the praise and glory of God; can an invisible church do that? Every man that deems himself a member of the invisible church has a local assembly somewhere, but apparently denies that it is a church! Let me re-phrase that, every man that meets with others in any location for the praise and glory of the Father, is usually a member of a local church; if not, he is not right with God, and not fit to be called a follower of Christ. Even if he breaks away and starts his own church because he doesn’t like the way things are done, he has become a local church himself! Does he go to China and encourage them to come to his church in the U. S. A.? He has to go to his locality for a congregation, and thereby becomes a local church.


Its true brother, yet even many Baptist will not hold to this truth.
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No disagreement there, Rick.

The OP is a "man of straw" argument from not understanding the essential point - all true Christians comprise one redeemed people of God in Christ, the strangers scattered throughout.... The focus for every congregation is Christ, who meets with his scattered people, & with those in solitary confinement. Immanuel ... God with us.



there is no proof that the church is an invisible church either. So, maybe we are both straw men. Is the church and the Body of Christ the same or is it not? if it is the same, then there can be no mysterious invisible church. the Lord assigned certain tasks to the church, so is the "body" exempt? All that claim to be saved are not, we all know that, just because they make an outward profession, doesn't mean they are believers inwardly. if they do not attend a local church, they cannot be a useful vessel in the Lord's hands. Christ died for the church, which is composed of believers all over the world, (I can only repeat so you may better understand), so that they have a place to send their tithes; to baptize; to fellowship,; to send out missionaries, and do all that the Lord commands. if they claim to be of the invisible church, they must have invisible tithes, and all the other, for they have nowhere to do those things. You cannot serve God according to His Word in an invisible, church.
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It's plain as day in the scripture that the "body of Christ"( i.e. the church) is made up all believers since Acts 2.

Irishman, you seem to be unable to distinguish between the church (a spiritual organism) and the local church (a physical organization). There are no unsaved people within the church but there can be in the local church including any Baptist church.

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It's plain as day in the scripture that the "body of Christ"( i.e. the church) is made up all believers since Acts 2.

Irishman, you seem to be unable to distinguish between the church (a spiritual organism) and the local church (a physical organization). There are no unsaved people within the church but there can be in the local church including any Baptist church.



Wilchbla your point is a moot point in this instance. If you will read my post (written in blue) in answer to "heartstrings" you will discover that I said almost the same thing, with the exception of not being able to distinguish between the local church and an invisible church. I also never claimed that anyone was saved or unsaved, I cannot tell a mans heart. My point is simple, yet it seems no one wants to address it head on.

When Paul wrote to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, and Sardis,etc, he wrote to local assemblies, and real people that he could talk to and fellowship with; people that were accountable to someone. Of course some of them may not have been saved, several that followed our Lord were not "saved" either, but that was no reflection on Him. Again, I will say that there probably are unsaved people in all our churches, but that is not the point, the Lord will separate the wheat from the chaff, not us. Paul dealt with local churches and not invisible churches from who knows where. Each church was composed of the body of Christ, --a physical body that lives and breathes and has being (Acts 17:28)

In Mt. 18, concerning discipline in the church, they are commanded to "tell the church" if one will not repent. That has to be a local assembly. Acts 8:1 refers to "a church"; Acts 15:4, etc. there are many references to a local assembly, as well as many that are not clear. The communication of believers, one with another,must have had too be in a central location though, or they would have had the entire continent come to their meetings. They were close enough together to commune with one another.

Acts 15:2 refers to apostles and elders, and "the whole church". Could this have been an invisible church? In Acts 20:17 he called the elders of the church...it goes on and on. these were all local churches, local to their area, and all considered the body of Christ. You are right about one thing, I do not understand this "invisible church" stuff, and have clearly said why already. I do not know how to make it any clearer than this.
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Brother, I believe very strongly in the local church. My article on the local church is twice as long as the one on the universal church. I believe it is the responsibility of every believer to put themselves under the authority of a local church and pastor.

The fact of the matter is though, that there are people who don't. They either get saved and never take that step, or they backslide and leave church. That doesn't change their standing in Christ, they are still saved and eternally secure. They are still within the body of Christ, spiritually bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh - "in Christ." The Bible is very clear that the body and the church are the same thing in Col. 1:18, 24. So you can be in "the church" without being in a local church.

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Irishman, by focusing on "invisible" rather than "universal" you are debating a straw man.

It's not a novel idea, but is in the 1689 Baptist Confession.


Chapter 26: Of the Church
1._____ The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
( Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32 )

2._____ All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted.
( 1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 11:26; Romans 1:7; Ephesians 1:20-22 )
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Many Bible Believers will not hold to this elitest Baptist tradition that doesn't have the Scriptural evidence to fill a thimble.


Yes, but if you hold to this position it is easier to keep your membership in line if you are the pastor, not quite so much x'plaining to do.......
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