The Invisible Church?

[anime4christ]

Woops, Jerry, but according to the articles on Baptist Bridalism in the links you provided, you and most people on this board are excluded from being the bride. The Baptists described in those articles are Covenantal, therefore perhaps Calvinistic, and they deny Fundamentalists the title of Baptist. I actually am a Reformed and Covenantal Baptist, I'm just not 100% sure I was baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized by one of the 12 apostles. But hey! According to those articles, I have a chance to be part of the bride while you don't! Ain't it great? (Don't worry, I am being sarcastic.. I strongly disagree with all that Baptist Bride heresy)

[irishman]

Woops, Jerry, but according to the articles on Baptist Bridalism in the links you provided, you and most people on this board are excluded from being the bride. The Baptists described in those articles are Covenantal, therefore perhaps Calvinistic, and they deny Fundamentalists the title of Baptist. I actually am a Reformed and Covenantal Baptist, I'm just not 100% sure I was baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized by one of the 12 apostles. But hey! According to those articles, I have a chance to be part of the bride while you don't! Ain't it great? (Don't worry, I am being sarcastic.. I strongly disagree with all that Baptist Bride heresy)

I said that I "lean toward" Baptist bride. If you care to, look for it in these forums, we discussed this not long ago. I adopt "some" of their doctrine, but not all, though I will say it really doesn't matter too much because there are enough different ideas in the Baptist denomination to keep someone busy for a long time. It is as if there were no other religions already! Every one seems to "do that which is right in their own eyes" when it comes to interpreting scripture.

as for believing that only Baptists will be in heaven, I never once said that--too many people are putting words into my mouth, and, as Jerry said. mocking and accusing. When we get all that junk out of the way we may be able to discuss it openly and honestly. And just because some of us have never heard of it before, doesn't make it untrue. I have said that if people do not accept eternal salvation, then they are a works doctrine, you take it from there. There are others who understand eternal security besides Baptists.

Moving on, how come Paul never wrote to the "invisible church", but did write to local churches that he did not know anyone at? Most of the Epistles were written to a local church, and those that weren't were directed toward the "Brethren" scattered throughout Asia, etc., ( James 1:1). Look at Phil. 1:1

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

Where are the deacons and bishops of an invisible church? Who are they, and why must they remain invisible? There is no scripture for this doctrine of the "invisible church", but there is plenty for an "invincible" church.

There are really too many unanswered questions for the "invisible church" proponents to list them all here, but they are important to the Body.


BTW, Very good links bro Jerry, thanks for posting them. I know they can tell things much more eloquently than I can.

I almost forgot--many have wondered what I meant by my answer in #3 on Rick's questions, but no one has asked me what I meant! It's no wonder I am mis-quoted so much! Edited February 19, 2011 by irishman

[irishman]

Psa 23:1 ¶ [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want.

Hbr 13:20 ¶ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.




Eze 37:24 ¶ And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We even have a Bible to guide us ....

Covenanter, if this is true, why did Christ give the church apostles, teachers, evangelists and preachers? Why bother. Your answers omit the church altogether! Christ died for His bride, all that is nothing if one accepts your answers as valid. I am sure that you know that the structure of the church is strictly a New Testament teaching, for New testament believers.

[John81]

This answer of yours troubled me. Rick's question was clearly spelled out, and your answer was, too. Here it is:
Q: 3. Is it possible to be in the spiritual body of Christ but not in a Baptist church?
A: 3. No

Irishman,

You said "as for believing that only Baptists will be in heaven, I never once said that--too many people are putting words into my mouth", yet this doesn't agree with the answer you gave previously. Which do you actually believe?

[Invicta]

Irishman,

You said "as for believing that only Baptists will be in heaven, I never once said that--too many people are putting words into my mouth", yet this doesn't agree with the answer you gave previously. Which do you actually believe?

When I was in the Brethren, there was a joke that a visitor in heaven was shown the various groups of the denominations doing their thing, and eventually was told to lift a manhole and there was a group down there, and when he asked who they were was told "Shh! It is the Brethren, they think they are the only ones here." I later heard the same story told about the Strict Baptists.

[Annie]

I almost forgot--many have wondered what I meant by my answer in #3 on Rick's questions, but no one has asked me what I meant! It's no wonder I am mis-quoted so much!

Au contraire, sir. I did indeed ask you what you meant. I asked you five questions about it, to be exact (see below):

Wait, wait...time out for a second. Irishman, what do you mean by your answer to #3? That only Baptists are part of Christ's body?

So, only Baptists are in the body of Christ? ...Upon what Scriptural doctrine do you base this statement? (Rick graciously is giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps you mistyped your answer, but I'm thinking you've had a chance to clarify, and that you've said something about leaning toward being a "Baptist brider," whatever that is. Care to explain? If it means that only Baptists are saved, I'd call that completely misinformed and bordering on heretical. I would lose all respect for a person who knowingly embraced that strange doctrine.)

You said, clear as day, that it is impossible to be in the spiritual body of Christ (defined by Rick as "the Church") without being in a Baptist church. In other words, logically speaking, those who are not Baptists are not part of Christ's body, and are therefore doomed to hell forever. If this is what you're saying, my friend, you do indeed sound like a Roman Catholic (no salvation outside their particular church).

Please tell me there's something I'm misinterpreting about your words. Edited February 19, 2011 by Annie

[trc123]

Au contraire, sir. I did indeed ask you what you meant. I asked you five questions about it, to be exact (see below):





You said, clear as day, that it is impossible to be in the spiritual body of Christ (defined by Rick as "the Church") without being in a Baptist church. In other words, logically speaking, those who are not Baptists are not part of Christ's body, and are therefore doomed to hell forever. If this is what you're saying, my friend, you do indeed sound like a Roman Catholic (no salvation outside their particular church).

Please tell me there's something I'm misinterpreting about your words.

I also asked for irishman to clarify and he chose to ignore and not answer.

[anime4christ]

I said that I "lean toward" Baptist bride. If you care to, look for it in these forums, we discussed this not long ago. I adopt "some" of their doctrine, but not all, though I will say it really doesn't matter too much because there are enough different ideas in the Baptist denomination to keep someone busy for a long time. It is as if there were no other religions already! Every one seems to "do that which is right in their own eyes" when it comes to interpreting scripture.

as for believing that only Baptists will be in heaven, I never once said that--too many people are putting words into my mouth, and, as Jerry said. mocking and accusing. When we get all that junk out of the way we may be able to discuss it openly and honestly. And just because some of us have never heard of it before, doesn't make it untrue. I have said that if people do not accept eternal salvation, then they are a works doctrine, you take it from there. There are others who understand eternal security besides Baptists.

Moving on, how come Paul never wrote to the "invisible church", but did write to local churches that he did not know anyone at? Most of the Epistles were written to a local church, and those that weren't were directed toward the "Brethren" scattered throughout Asia, etc., ( James 1:1). Look at Phil. 1:1

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

Where are the deacons and bishops of an invisible church? Who are they, and why must they remain invisible? There is no scripture for this doctrine of the "invisible church", but there is plenty for an "invincible" church.

There are really too many unanswered questions for the "invisible church" proponents to list them all here, but they are important to the Body.


BTW, Very good links bro Jerry, thanks for posting them. I know they can tell things much more eloquently than I can.

I almost forgot--many have wondered what I meant by my answer in #3 on Rick's questions, but no one has asked me what I meant! It's no wonder I am mis-quoted so much!

According to the links Jerry posted, Baptist Briders believe that All Christians are saved and going to Heaven, but they will be as mere guests at the wedding feast and friends/family of Christ in Heaven, and only true Baptists will be in the bride of Christ. The definition for the true Baptists given in those links are those who had been baptized in a church which directly succeeds from the apostles (which they claim their churches to be). There's more though: the doctrine required in those churches described in the link is Covenantal or reformed theology, therefore Calvinistic as well. Most of the people on this board are fundamental and many are dispensational and (though they deny it) classical Arminian (sans possibility of apostasy). Basically, the Baptist Briders described in those links are teaching that all baptisms except their's (apostolic succession) are invalid, and the purpose of their valid baptism is to give them the elite status of being in the bride of Christ while all other Christians are merely friends and guests at the wedding. For those on this board who want to believe such garbage, I would like to disappoint you by saying that by definition of that doctrine, you guys do not qualify to be in the bride while I almost do.

[irishman]

Okay, with all this hoopla trivia's, my point is yet to come.

With all the time I spend explaining and defending, answering, etc., I tend to forget the older posts and the reason for them. the point is that the church is the Bride of Christ. If the church were an invisible Body, then Christ has many, many wives, which we know to be contrary to Scripture (unless your name is Ruckman!) We, individually, are not the bride, but there is only one bride, which is made up of believers collectively to form one body with many members. It is still only one church though, and is made up of real people who do real works to the glory of a real God. Mans doctrine has no place in it. It is one church:

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Lord died for the church, His Bride; one church, composed of one faith, one baptism, etc.
and He gave to the bride gifts of jewels:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

These were to strengthen her. A spirit-church (f there were such a thing) has no need of edification; it has no need of perfecting for the work of the ministry. It takes a visible; active lively church to do these things, and seek the power of the Holy Spirit in them. This affects other areas of our lives such as:

Dispensationalism. Is it true or a doctrine made of men? There is no scriptural support for it, yet it is a widespread teaching among Baptists--perhaps because of John Nelson Darby. the reason for this entire thread was to reveal the falsehood of dispensationalism, but we cannot do that scripturally, neither can the proponents of it scripturally prove its worth , and the truth of it. I have been mocked, ridiculed, derided and mis-quoted, and have not changed a thing, because I have followed no man, but learned from the Holy Scriptures that which the Lord Himself has revealed to me, and so I had hopes of passing it on to all that will receive it. if it is not for you, do not drink of the cup.

[anime4christ]

OK, I think we all agree here that there is one church made up of all the elect who ever lived and that church is the bride of Christ. You just disagree with calling it invisible. The only thing we mean by the word invisible is that we cannot see all the people in this one church right now because many of them are dead and the ones who are alive are scattered throughout all the earth. One day, we will see them all and the whole church and bride will be visible in her entirety. You just don't like calling her invisible now and that's OK. The concept remains the same however.

As for Dispensationalism, I agree that it is unbiblical. I am opposed to it as well. The question is: what does the Baptist Bride teaching do to fix that? It is just as much heresy as Dispensationalism, which claims there will be two weddings in Heaven: Christ to the church and God to ethnic Israel. Which always puzzles me because I am Christian and ethnically Jewish, so which bride do I get to be in? And why become Christian right now if I'm a Jew and have the chance of being in the more prestigious position of being part of God's bride instead of Christ's if I remain an orthodox Jew until the second coming? But anyways, the Baptist Bride position is no less stupid if there will be a distinction between Christians who are part of the bride and Christians who are not.