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Is it possible to renounce salvation?

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no name joe
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Jerry:

I must not be communicating clearly, or we see things vastly differently.

As concerns your physical seed, it matters not who you come from. Anyone can be saved by grace. Or be condemned by unbelief.

As concerns the spiritual seed (which you get when saved by grace), that is God in Christ in you, the hope of glory. That seed, spiritually, which God places within you, does not allow you to lose your eternal life.

Thus my reference to Jeremiah. When a person is saved, a seed is planted by God. You cannot renounce everlasting life, because the seed is there.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

How about going about it this way, it works much better, & the proof is quite clear, to those that believe the holy Bible is God's true Word.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I will say, you have a strange way of trying to prove it, its not though seed, who your birth parents, At the moment a person is saved they are sealed by God's Holy Spirit, plus of course God's promise in 2 Timothy 1:12.

Plus:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

After one has been saved, no one, not even our self, can pluck ourself out of the hand of God.

Plus;

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Jesus made a promise, if we once believed, He will stay faithful.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That once a person has been saved, that person is not condemned, if they were, he would be denying the promise He openly made.

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When the cock crowed. Peter verbally denied Jesus not only once, but three times., But Peter was lying; In his heart it was a different story as the Bible attests, because he went out and wept bitterly afterwards. The Bible also says that it is possible for a man to "forget that he was purged from his old sins". Our flesh, our old nature, still is at enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, it wars against the Spirit. But that Spirit, that inner man CANNOT deny God. It is totally impossible. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of the Almighty King of Glory and He cannot deny Himself. We can feed our flesh until we sink so deep in unbelief, we will doubt our salvation. But that is a miserable place to be, I've been there and got the T-shirt. I have been in unbelief; but in remembering how POWERFUL and how sweet it was when I first believed I just don't see how I could ever completely denounce God and His salvation.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

As we can see, God knows if we are really His, even if we forget ourselves. And we can also see that even false teachers also have the ability to overthrow our faith, if we give ear to their lies. Imagine believing on Jesus with all your heart, but later believing someone when they tell you that Jesus already came and left you behind, that would be pretty scarey I would think. We can be duped by liars too if we don't stay in the Word, and depart from initquity.

Edited by heartstrings
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When the cock crowed. Peter verbally denied Jesus not only once, but three times., But Peter was lying; In his heart it was a different story as the Bible attests, because he went out and wept bitterly afterwards. The Bible also says that it is possible for a man to "forget that he was purged from his old sins". Our flesh, our old nature, still is at enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, it wars against the Spirit. But that Spirit, that inner man CANNOT deny God. It is totally impossible. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of the Almighty King of Glory and He cannot deny Himself. We can feed our flesh until we sink so deep in unbelief, we will doubt our salvation. But that is a miserable place to be, I've been there and got the T-shirt. I have been in unbelief; but in remembering how POWERFUL and how sweet it was when I first believed I just don't see how I could ever completely denounce God and His salvation.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

As we can see, God knows if we are really His, even if we forget ourselves. And we can also see that even false teachers also have the ability to overthrow our faith, if we give ear to their lies. Imagine believing on Jesus with all your heart, but later believing someone when they tell you that Jesus already came and left you behind, that would be pretty scarey I would think. We can be duped by liars too if we don't stay in the Word, and depart from initquity.


I think your saying Peter was not lost, I don't believe he was either. He was in a strait, lots of confusion inside, & he even left the ministry, & several other left with him. But later Jesus goes to him & the others, & Peter, & the other reconcile, they got it together, after this, Peter was fully perpared, & he preached the famous sermon on the day of Pentecost, & it seems he was a faithful to Jesus even unto his death.
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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?

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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?


Agreed, but we forget John 17 and I reiterate my point that Peter and the other 10 disciples were protected until there conversion at Pentecost. They may not have been "saved" by the Blood, but they were definitely saved from falling away and protected by God. As good as saved IMHO. Possibly a "special dispensation" or "covenant" specifically for them.

John 17: 1-19 KJV

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
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Every believer from Adam, to Abel, to Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. was saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the Word who spoke the Worlds into existence, He is the I Am who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, he is the Son of God who walked with the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, He is the "My Lord" whose enemies the Psalmist David declared would, sit at his footstool. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Old Testament beleivers look forward To the cross whereas WE look backward to it. He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says, but He was slain physically at the cross ca 2000 years ago. The day that Peter declare "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" he was already a believer. The Bible says in John chapter 1 "even to them that believe on his name". Believers were calling on "his name" way back in Genesis 4.

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Every believer from Adam, to Abel, to Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. was saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the Word who spoke the Worlds into existence, He is the I Am who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, he is the Son of God who walked with the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, He is the "My Lord" whose enemies the Psalmist David declared would, sit at his footstool. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Old Testament beleivers look forward To the cross whereas WE look backward to it. He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says, but He was slain physically at the cross ca 2000 years ago. The day that Peter declare "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" he was already a believer. The Bible says in John chapter 1 "even to them that believe on his name". Believers were calling on "his name" way back in Genesis 4.


Don't know if I believe this "grace before the cross" salvation of the OT saints. My bible reads LAW then GRACE. WORKS then FAITH. I can not find one instance, not one where the name of Jesus is mentioned in the OT so how could they call on His name when they didn't know it. He was slain before the foundation of the world because God lives outside/inside and is time. He was only slain in the flesh some 2000 yrs ago and it's the "slain in the SINLESS FLESH" that makes it a acceptable sacrifice to God.
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At least 120 years before the flood, Noah, by faith, found 'grace' in the eyes of the Lord. You can read about him in Hebrews 11. Even today, those who are unsaved are under the law.


Agreed and I think I know where Heb 11 is. And yes I am aware that the unsaved now are under the law. But what if Noah decided to stop building the Ark? He would have drowned with the rest of them but would he be in heaven? I am assured that no matter what my sin after salvation is I will still be seated with Christ in heaven as I am already seated in heavenly places with Christ. Were any of the great men of faith ASSURED salvation regardless of there actions after there initial act of faith that placed them in Heb 11? Unless of course these great men had a different covenant with God than the rest of their family and mankind.

Was Noah assured ETERNAL salvation because he built the ark? Then why was he the first to build a sacrificial alter? Was Abraham assured ETERNAL salvation because he was prepared to sacrifice his son?
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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?


I agree, Jesus started his church much earlier than Pentecost, yet there's many that believes it was not started till the day of Pentecost..

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Seems difficult to add to something on the day of Pentecost when it has not been started.
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Don't know if I believe this "grace before the cross" salvation of the OT saints. My bible reads LAW then GRACE. WORKS then FAITH. I can not find one instance, not one where the name of Jesus is mentioned in the OT so how could they call on His name when they didn't know it. He was slain before the foundation of the world because God lives outside/inside and is time. He was only slain in the flesh some 2000 yrs ago and it's the "slain in the SINLESS FLESH" that makes it a acceptable sacrifice to God.


Remember, in order to be saved by the law, one had to keep the whole law, just breaking one single law, would make a person lost, & Jesus was the only one ever, able to keep the whole law. So being as no one else could keep the whole law, they could not be saved by keeping the law.

Perhaps you think the animal sacrifices saved them, no, it was grace, remember, it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

No, they believed forward to the promised sacrifice on cross, while we look back to the promise of the cross.


Ro 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Its by grace only that a lost soul can be saved, no matter, what time period they live in.
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I am not denying that grace was part of it. But do you believe that the OT saints had eternal security? Were they eternally saved once off and unable to lose it? Or was it a works based salvation that needed continual sanctification by obeying the law and doing the sacrifices?

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I refuse to use the term "eternal security". It is not found in the Bible. I use eternal life, everlasting life. I think eternal security is a degradation of God's Word. The common thread in eternal life and everlasting life is life, not security.

Their being in the resurrection of the just is definitely based on their believing, and their works following suit.

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I refuse to use the term "eternal security". It is not found in the Bible. I use eternal life, everlasting life. I think eternal security is a degradation of God's Word. The common thread in eternal life and everlasting life is life, not security.

Their being in the resurrection of the just is definitely based on their believing, and their works following suit.


I did a exact word search and looked up "Jesus loves you" and "Jesus saves" and would you guess it - it's not found in the bible but we use it all the time. Would you call these a degradation of God's Word and refuse to say them? Or is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water? Typical of most IFB's to find something and stick to it like a tick on a dog. The term "eternal security" means just that - secure in the eternal grace of God who has given us eternal life through the blood of His son Jesus Christ. Rapture is another term not found in the bible - do you refuse that too?
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I refuse to use the term "eternal security". It is not found in the Bible. I use eternal life, everlasting life. I think eternal security is a degradation of God's Word. The common thread in eternal life and everlasting life is life, not security.

Their being in the resurrection of the just is definitely based on their believing, and their works following suit.



John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The moment I first "believeth'ed" some twenty six years ago, according to Jesus, at that time I had the promise of "shall not come into condemnation".
So, my salvation does not depend on MY faithfulness to keep believing; it depends on the faithfulness and trustworthiness of the One who made the promise.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

....and I, who was dead in trespasses abd sins, heard he voice of God through the power of His Holy Ghost and His Word and was QUICKENED......."quickened" means "made alive". Look at that verse 5:24 again now...it says I passed from death unto life. Salvation depends on the power of God, not us. Then look at that phrase in 5;24 which says "hath eternal life", that means I "hath" it right now......it means I posses it....today, even 26 years later. Edited by heartstrings
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