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Baptismal Regeneration (revisited)

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I had my reply almost ready to post when it crashed .... :(




Yes, the Bible provides many examples of those who were immersed in water (baptized).

Those who were baptized on the day of Pent in Acts 2 were. The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 was as well as Simon and the others earlier in chapter 8. Acts 19 tells us of the Ephesians who were baptized (immersed in water).

No. You are assuming what you are trying to prove.

I take the fact that you haven’t named any examples to mean that you can’t. Actually, I know you can’t since there are no Biblical examples.

The procedure used for specific baptisms is not stated. I have sought to lead a study into Scriptural baptism, & that relates it to the old covenant ceremonial washings. The spiritual significance is OBviously more important that the amount of water. Baptism is meaningless without repentance & faith, & true saving baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit into the church, the body of Christ.

I have to admit that I am no Greek scholar but I do know a little and am capable of looking it up. I do know that the Greek word Baptitzo (spelling?) is translated as immersed. Never! I am even less of a Hebrew scholar. I will be glad to go back and provide further information on the Greek and/or Hebrew.

I am dependant on the Blue letter Bible that is linked to Strong's numbers, thus allowing a study of the usage of Gk & Hebrew words in Scripture, & how they are translated. I understand that the only place βαπτίσατο is used in the LXX is 2 Kings 5:14, where it is the translation of the Heb tabal, & is translated "dipped" in KJV.

"Dip" is the consistent translation of "tabal" & is used for the dip/sprinkle rituals, including Passover & red heifer.


Yes, prOBlems arise from transliterations rather than translations, had the scholars simply translated the Greek, it would have been translated immersed.

Yet in their wisdom they never did. A consistent translation "immerse" is not appropriate, unless the Jews immersed tables & unless James being killed with the sword was immersion.

To get back to the thread subject, true regenerating baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit giving spiritual life & a living faith in Christ. Water baptism has no more significance than circumcision if it does not have heart significance.

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Covenant,

I am not assuming anything. Let's just take the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8. Let's just read what verse 38 states. "And he commanded the chariot to stand stil: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." Can this passage be any clearer as to what is being discussed? Could it have been sprinkling? Could it have been pouring? Could it have been "Holy Spirit" baptism? Well, they both got out of the chariot and went down into the water where Philip baptized the Eunuch. Last time I checked two adult men would not fit into a little battle of water. Last time I checked they wouldn't both fit into a few drops of water.

We can look at the other passages and break them down if you like to demonstrate what the Bible clearly states.

I will put together a short study on the Greek. I can send it to you privately if others wish to refocus this thread. For the record, I am not a King James Only advocate but a study on this subject clearly demonstrates that the word is "immersion."

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I understood that the KJ translators were told they could not trannslate anything that went against the then current practice, so they transliterated the word rather than translated it.


The Eunuch would no doubt have had water in his carriage if that was enough.

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Tim, I will attempt to answer your question. First, let me say that I take exception with the "Title" of this thread. The BIble, which is our sole source of authority, does not teach "baptismal regeneration." The church of Christ is often accused of believing in "water (baptismal) regeneration" which it does not. That being said.....

Yes, the church of Christ does teach that one must also be baptized in order to be saved. The question is, is the church of Christ doing so because it is just some idea some man has come up with or is it something that the Bible teaches. The simple answer is that the Bible teaches it.

We could examine Acts 2 and see that in verse 37 the Jews asked what they had to do to be saved. Peter answered they had to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins." We could examine Acts 16 and notice in verse 30 the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved. Paul and Silas responded that he must believe. Then they taught him that he might believe (keep in mind that faith comes from the word of God (Rom 10:17). Then what happened? Notice in verse 33 that he was baptized. We could study the conversion of Saul (Paul) in Acts chapters 9, 22, and 26 and see that Jesus told him to go into the city and wait and he would be told what he must do in order to be saved. He was told to arise and be baptized (Acts 22:16) calling on the name of the Lord washing away his sins. We could study Simon the sourcer in Acts 8:10ff and notice that he and the others were baptized.

We could read of the importance of baptism in Rom 6:3ff, Col 2:12, Gal 3:27, 1 Peter 3:20ff, Eph 4:5 (cf Acts 19:1ff) etc. These passages all teach us that one must be baptized in order to have his/her sins remitted (be saved). It is at this point that one is added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:41, 47).

You seem to indicate that it is your belief that one is baptized in order to "join" the church of Christ. This is not the case. As a matter of fact, it seems from my studies that one must be baptized in order to be a member of the baptist church. It is easier (in the baptist mind) to be saved than to join the baptist church. At least, that is what it seems from my studies.

Let's be clear about something else. We are are often accused of believing in baptism over faith. This is not true. One must have faith in order to be baptized. It would be of no benefit whatsoever to immerse a person in water who did not believe in Christ, but neither does it do any good to "believe" and not actually OBey the will of God.

I hope that I have answered your question. If you have any further, please, let me know.


I've been reading your posts so i guess any post will do. Answer me this Jesus Christ being God didn't need to be saved correct? So why is it that He suffered John to baptize him? I don't ever recall Jesus calling upon the name of the Lord "himself"and being saved. Nor did I ever read that Jesus saying I must believe in myself to be saved. Yet you propose that water baptism saves. Who baptized John "the baptist" or any old testament saint for that matter? Did they not live by grace through faith? Jesus even said Moses wrote of him.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
The most famous verse in the bible sums it up rather good. Tell me does Jesus say baptize?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I guess i can assume that you believe that the apostles were saved right? I also assume that you believe that John the baptist baptized them correct? If that is the case why then does Jesus asks this question and why does Jesus respond with this answer, after they answer him?

Matthew 20:22,23 22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

What baptism is Jesus speaking of? His water baptism; the same exact baptism of John that the apostle had, or is it something else? As stated Jesus is God, so the baptism he was speaking of is the Holy Ghost, which He had already. The apostles had not had that yet correct? Just so it is not assumed that I believe the apostles were lost until the day of pentecost. They were/are saved with the exception of Judas Iscarot. The apostles were saved just as you ,or me ,or the old testaments saints were, by grace through faith and never of works; which water baptism ,whether you like it or not, is a work.

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coc333 stated:"I will put together a short study on the Greek. I can send it to you privately if others wish to refocus this thread. For the record, I am not a King James Only advocate but a study on this subject clearly demonstrates that the word is "immersion.""

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I've been reading your posts so i guess any post will do. Answer me this Jesus Christ being God didn't need to be saved correct? So why is it that He suffered John to baptize him? I don't ever recall Jesus calling upon the name of the Lord "himself"and being saved. Nor did I ever read that Jesus saying I must believe in myself to be saved. Yet you propose that water baptism saves. Who baptized John "the baptist" or any old testament saint for that matter? Did they not live by grace through faith? Jesus even said Moses wrote of him.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
The most famous verse in the bible sums it up rather good. Tell me does Jesus say baptize?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I guess i can assume that you believe that the apostles were saved right? I also assume that you believe that John the baptist baptized them correct? If that is the case why then does Jesus asks this question and why does Jesus respond with this answer, after they answer him?

Matthew 20:22,23 22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

What baptism is Jesus speaking of? His water baptism; the same exact baptism of John that the apostle had, or is it something else? As stated Jesus is God, so the baptism he was speaking of is the Holy Ghost, which He had already. The apostles had not had that yet correct? Just so it is not assumed that I believe the apostles were lost until the day of pentecost. They were/are saved with the exception of Judas Iscarot. The apostles were saved just as you ,or me ,or the old testaments saints were, by grace through faith and never of works; which water baptism ,whether you like it or not, is a work.


Kleptes,

The Bible is very clear as to why Jesus Christ insisted upon John baptizing Him. Jesus Himself said in Matt 3:15, “….Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.”

As to why we are in need of Baptism, the Bible is equally clear. Acts 2:38 clearly states, “…Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins….” It also states in Acts 22:16 that we are baptized in order to “wash away our sins….”

As to Matt 20:22-23, Jesus was here speaking of His sufferings.

As to the Apostles and others prior to the death/ burial/resurrection of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the kingdom/church (Acts 2) were still under the OT and the Law of Moses. We are not now under that Law.

The Bible is clear whether you or I or anyone else accept it or not. The Word of God clearly teaches that faith as you seem to deem it is simply not saving faith. I suggest you read and study Heb 3:18-4:11 which clearly shows that faith and OBedience go hand in hand.

One may say he believes in Jesus and yet if he will not OBey Him, he has a dead (and useless) faith.

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Jim,

I am not claiming to be anything other than a simple student of the Bible. I am not putting forth my credentials nor am I discussing those of the translators of the KJV Bible. What I am discussing is the fact that "baptizied" in the Bible is by immersion. The KJV clearly demonstrates this though they transliterated the word rather than translates it.

I realize that this site is KJV only and that is your choice. I personally use the KJV though as stated I do not believe that it is the only translation worth using. I believe it is certainly one of the two best translations along with the ASV 1901.

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Jim,

I am not claiming to be anything other than a simple student of the Bible. I am not putting forth my credentials nor am I discussing those of the translators of the KJV Bible. What I am discussing is the fact that "baptizied" in the Bible is by immersion. The KJV clearly demonstrates this though they transliterated the word rather than translates it.

I realize that this site is KJV only and that is your choice. I personally use the KJV though as stated I do not believe that it is the only translation worth using. I believe it is certainly one of the two best translations along with the ASV 1901.

On what basis do you claim that "immersion" is the only translation & should always be used instead of "baptism" or "washing" ??? Try reading "immersion" everywhere.

1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized immersed unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized immersed with the baptism immersion that I am baptized immersed with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized immersed with the baptism immersion that I am baptized immersed with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Baptism has a meaning & significance that goes way beyond immersion in water.

You may of course PM me with your short study of the Gk. Please take into account the guidance I have given for a study of the Gk, using Strong's number to find the various words & their translation & usage.

Please also take into account the passage in Heb. 9, which teaches that the OC "immersions" were all sprinklings that prefigured sprinkling with the blood of Jesus.

Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings immersions, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

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Kleptes,

The Bible is very clear as to why Jesus Christ insisted upon John baptizing Him. Jesus Himself said in Matt 3:15, “….Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.”

As to why we are in need of Baptism, the Bible is equally clear. Acts 2:38 clearly states, “…Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins….” It also states in Acts 22:16 that we are baptized in order to “wash away our sins….”

As to Matt 20:22-23, Jesus was here speaking of His sufferings.

As to the Apostles and others prior to the death/ burial/resurrection of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the kingdom/church (Acts 2) were still under the OT and the Law of Moses. We are not now under that Law.

The Bible is clear whether you or I or anyone else accept it or not. The Word of God clearly teaches that faith as you seem to deem it is simply not saving faith. I suggest you read and study Heb 3:18-4:11 which clearly shows that faith and OBedience go hand in hand.

One may say he believes in Jesus and yet if he will not OBey Him, he has a dead (and useless) faith.


Those verses still don't make it so. Read Acts 9:17 Annanias calls him brother before he is baptized. If baptism is a requirement, why then call him brother?

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Coc if you are to use such verses to prove a point. Then you must have tp agree with this verse for salvation then.
1 timothy 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sOBriety.
The bible clearly says she shall be saved in childbearing. I would imagine you would disagree that it indeed means that, but people believe. Why? You may ask. Because they are blinded to the truth. Perhaps someday you will to see truth in what the true gospel of Christ is.
As you stated John and the apostles were under the law, but it seems to me John baptized in the wilderness preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sin.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
That tells me that you by your doctrine you are under the law still.
And your reasoning for Jesus saying this, Matt 3:15, “….Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.” Is for salvation. Nothing about Jesus was unrighteous. To fullfill all righteousness means that the fullfillment of Jesus Christs work here on earth was seen through until He said "it is finished"
You also posted these verses in another post.
Peter 3:20Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I believe I am correct in thinking that Noah and his family were in a ark and not floating on water with out an ark. Read 21 in context The like figure and then goes on to says by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Do you honestly think Peter literally meant or means that the water saved Noah, his family and christians today? i am not mistaken that Noah was a righteous man before he entered that ark correct? So the righteous man gets saved spritually twice? I think not. The example is that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, Noah was a righteous man. By faith he built an ark which floated on a flooded world. Just as we that are saved because of grace and by faith we trust in our ark Jesus Christ. Jesus rose again, therefore we have the hope of Him who saved us to return to gather us. The baptism is a symbol of what Christ did for us. and in these three words lies the whole crux of the gospel: Death,Burial, and Resurrection. Death because Christ died for us, and we are dead to the world. Buried to show that Jesus truly died, as we make an open confession that we have been baptized into his death and are truly dead to the world. and Resurrection because Jesus lives and because He lives we live too, in the newness of life, and have that blessed hope of His return.

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Why was Jesus baptized? And how did his baptism fulfill all righteousness?

I'll start a new thread, rather than hijack this one.

(Kleptes)
As you (coc) stated John and the apostles were under the law, but it seems to me John baptized in the wilderness preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sin.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
That tells me that you by your doctrine you are under the law still.

Another sideways move. Were OT believers under the Law? Surely they were living by faith, as NT believers. Heb. 11 makes that clear. Paul confirms this:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I submit that water baptism (however it is done) signifies the sinner being cleansed by the blood of Christ, & being declared righteous. Our conscience is cleansed, as Heb. & Peter show.

1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; .....
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

16 Having a good conscience; How, but by his atoning death & resurrection? Noah in the ark was fully protected from the outpouring of the wrath of God. We, baptised into Christ, by the Spirit, are fully protected from the wrath of God. The water offered NO protection to Noah. The ark, built by OBedient faith protected him.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Note that it is NOT the water of baptism itself that saves - it is the figure - the significance. Peter specifically says, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - not the water of washing. What the baptism does is declare the conscience "good." It is the applied blood of Christ. Whether that is sprinkled (Heb. 9:14, 1 Peter 1:2) or carried out by immersion, the water doesn't save. It is a figure of the perfect cleansing we have in Christ. We are baptised into his death, & declared "justified." His resurrection proves that.

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Around and around we go. Truly Christ was right when He spoke of those who have eyes and yet do not see and those who have ears and yet do not hear.

I will pray that the Word will find its mark and that ears and eyes will be opened. Other than that I see no reason to continue this discussion since you refuse to see what is before you.

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Why was Jesus baptized? And how did his baptism fulfill all righteousness?

I'll start a new thread, rather than hijack this one.


Another sideways move. Were OT believers under the Law? Surely they were living by faith, as NT believers. Heb. 11 makes that clear. Paul confirms this:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I submit that water baptism (however it is done) signifies the sinner being cleansed by the blood of Christ, & being declared righteous. Our conscience is cleansed, as Heb. & Peter show.

1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; .....
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

16 Having a good conscience; How, but by his atoning death & resurrection? Noah in the ark was fully protected from the outpouring of the wrath of God. We, baptised into Christ, by the Spirit, are fully protected from the wrath of God. The water offered NO protection to Noah. The ark, built by OBedient faith protected him.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Note that it is NOT the water of baptism itself that saves - it is the figure - the significance. Peter specifically says, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - not the water of washing. What the baptism does is declare the conscience "good." It is the applied blood of Christ. Whether that is sprinkled (Heb. 9:14, 1 Peter 1:2) or carried out by immersion, the water doesn't save. It is a figure of the perfect cleansing we have in Christ. We are baptised into his death, & declared "justified." His resurrection proves that.

Jesus the savior of mankind, never baptized anyone. Never told anyone that he saved, the woman at the well, the one caught in adultery, the one with the issue of blood, the lepers, blind Bartimaeus.... to be baptized. John chapter 3 is used to show that being born of the water is baptism. If so, why is the term baptise and its derivitives used in chapter 1 chapter 3 (the same chapter is is talking to nicodemus about being born again) and chapter 4 also the chapter where the woman at well is saved with no reference to being baptised. I think it strange that Jesus did not use the word baptise when we talked about being born of water.
The thief on the cross did not get baptised. But those that believe baptism saves or completes salvation say that the thief was still under the old covenant and did not need to be baptised, since Jesus had not died yet. Well if the thief did not need to be baptised because he was still in the old covenant, then why did Jesus tell nicodemus he needed to be baptised ( born of water)? This shows two things; 1 Jesus was not talking about baptism in John 3, and 2 that there would be a contraditon to "baptism for salvation" ( after all what was essential for Nicodemus should have been essential for the theif on the cross, being that both events where before Jesus death.

The Apostle Paul states that he was called to preach the Gospel in I Cor 1 The issue of baptism was raised, Paul certainly does not give baptism equal value as salvation.
1Cr 1:12-17 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul then goes on later in 1Cor. what the gospel is.
1Cr 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Believing the gospel is what saves us. Nowhere does Paul mention being baptised or being OBedient in the defintion of the Gospel.
Paul was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptise. The gospel is by which we are saved, and no mention of baptism is there.

If baptism so essential to salvation, why isn't it mentioned more than it is, and not so clearly stated like grace thru faith is? When it comes to salvation by grace thru faith, belief, repentance towards God, these are clearly stated and no other interpration is needed. These are to the point. When it comes to baptism for salvation, most verses are taken out of context, or the few verses that seem plain, contradict the majority of verses that teach grace thru faith for salvation. In fact the following books never mention baptism or its derivitives, 2 Corinthians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, James, 2 Peter, 1 & 2 & 3 John, Jude, and Revelation. It is mentioned only 1 time in the following books, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 1 Peter. In Romans there is what is commonly called the "Romans road of salvation. Grace, faith and believe are abundant, but no mention of baptism.
Matthew 3:15 indicates that baptism was a righteous act (work), but Titus 3:5 states Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; The washing of regeneration incidently is not water baptism.

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Around and around we go. Truly Christ was right when He spoke of those who have eyes and yet do not see and those who have ears and yet do not hear.

I will pray that the Word will find its mark and that ears and eyes will be opened. Other than that I see no reason to continue this discussion since you refuse to see what is before you.

I'd be interested in your comments on the "divers immersions" of the old covenant rituals. (Hebrews 9:10 ff)

Anyone who thinks "baptism" always = "immersion" should answer this question.

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I'd be interested in your comments on the "divers immersions" of the old covenant rituals. (Hebrews 9:10 ff)

Anyone who thinks "baptism" always = "immersion" should answer this question.

I am disappointed (but nor surprised) that coc has not attempted to answer such points that clearly challenge his position.

Can anyone else comment on the old covenant baptisms of Heb. 9, & the point Heb. is making that the various dip/sprinkle rituals (divers washings ) are referred to in the Gk as διαφόροις βαπτισμοῖς - divers baptisms. NOT divers immersions, but sprinklings as is clear from the following examples given.

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stirthepot.gif I read no where in Hebrew 9 the word baptism, and reading the whole chapter deals with the OT rituals, and my limited understanding seems to tell me that when Christ came He changed things. I am a KJB believer. I don't need the Greek, to correct the KJB, I would even ask whose Greek is used. So is the KJB the inspired, preserved Word of God or is it the Greek? realitycheck.gif
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

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stirthepot.gif I read no where in Hebrew 9 the word baptism, and reading the whole chapter deals with the OT rituals, and my limited understanding seems to tell me that when Christ came He changed things. I am a KJB believer. I don't need the Greek, to correct the KJB, I would even ask whose Greek is used. So is the KJB the inspired, preserved Word of God or is it the Greek? realitycheck.gif
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I am not querying the KJV, but in their wisdom, the translators translators translated "baptisms" (Gk) as "washings." Many IFB contributors claim "baptisms" means "immersions" & should have been so translated, rather than transliterated. Here "baptisms" has been translated as "washings" in a context where the "divers washings" are sprinklings.

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Around and around we go. Truly Christ was right when He spoke of those who have eyes and yet do not see and those who have ears and yet do not hear.

I will pray that the Word will find its mark and that ears and eyes will be opened. Other than that I see no reason to continue this discussion since you refuse to see what is before you.


Here...this is before you.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Do you refuse to see what the Bible tells you?

Also, you have ignored the question...

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him?

...and I'll add...

Can this dying man be saved without being immersed in water?

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I am not querying the KJV, but in their wisdom, the translators translators translated "baptisms" (Gk) as "washings." Many IFB contributors claim "baptisms" means "immersions" & should have been so translated, rather than transliterated. Here "baptisms" has been translated as "washings" in a context where the "divers washings" are sprinklings.


icon_confused.gif You have seen the Greek? The KJB does not use baptism. Do you then use something else to translate washings to baptisms and then back to washings meaning baptisms and then puzzled3.gif.

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Tim, coc has excommunicated us all & gone away. After all, the CoC is the only true church.

Can YOU answer my question about Heb. 9 ?


I can try...I missed it looking back but give me a shot at it. Could you repost just the question?

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I am disappointed (but nor surprised) that coc has not attempted to answer such points that clearly challenge his position.

Can anyone else comment on the old covenant baptisms of Heb. 9, & the point Heb. is making that the various dip/sprinkle rituals (divers washings ) are referred to in the Gk as διαφόροις βαπτισμοῖς - divers baptisms. NOT divers immersions, but sprinklings as is clear from the following examples given.




Cov. I am sorry that you are disappointed that I have not continued the discussions on this thread. I am certainly willing to continue this or any other study if a true study is desired, but as I said before I see no value in going around in circles saying the same thing back and forth.

The issue of what baptized (you keep speaking of baptism but I am speaking of baptized) truly means has been discussed. We (all participating in the discussion) have gone back and forth on it with the same basic points being made. Clearly it has been shown that "baptized" is by immersion. Jim, who denies the necessity of being baptized for salvation has offerred information showing what being baptized is. It is there.

The issue of the necessity of being baptized for the remission of sins (salvation) has been discussed. Again, the same points are offerred back and forth. To what end? Is it simply to argue back and forth?

I am not interrested in doing that. Again, I am perfectly willing to have an honest open discussion of the Word on this subject, but not to the end of simply arguing.

I hope that my words do not come across as harsh or unkind. (Typed words do not easily express emotions).

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Here...this is before you.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Do you refuse to see what the Bible tells you?

Also, you have ignored the question...

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him?

...and I'll add...

Can this dying man be saved without being immersed in water?


Tim,

I would tell the man dying on the street the same thing I would tell anyone who desired to know the plan of salvation. Why would I tell him anything else? Would it do him a bit of good if I gave him any other teaching that the truth?

How about I simply tell him that he should pat his head? Would that do him any good? Of course it wouldn't. Nether would telling him that he simply had to believe that Christ is the Son of God (simply knowledge of that fact). Neither would telling him to say some prayer which one can not even find in the word of God.

Here is a question for you. Why is it that someone will deny the fact that one must be baptized for salvation (which is clearly taught in scripture) and yet claim that one must say some "sinner's prayer" which is no where found in scripture?

Let me see....believe what the Word of God actually does say or believe that which denominationalist falsly claim is there? Not a difficult choice for me.

Another interresting fact...Christ was preached in Acts 2 and the Jews were baptized; He was preached in Acts 8 and the eunuch was baptized; he was preached in Acts 16 and the Philippian Jailor and his house were baptized.....we can continue if you wish.

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Why is it that someone will deny the fact that one must be baptized for salvation (which is clearly taught in scripture) ...

I will remind you that this is a Baptist forum, and presenting false doctrine such as this will not be tolerated. You have gone beyond simple discussion to declaring Scriptural doctrine wrong. You choose to believe that the shed blood of Christ is not sufficient to provide salvation; you believe there is something else that you must do to ensure your salvation. There is nothing we can do to earn it nor keep it, other than repentence. Anyone can choose to be wrong. And you have been warned before about spreading your non-Scriptural doctrines on this forum before. I suggest you move on.

BTW, while some Baptists do use "the sinner's prayer," I think you'll find most OB pastors and members don't.

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Heb 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation

I’m sure we’re all well aware that context means everything. It seems there are two debates going on here: one is whether “baptizo” means “immersion” everywhere it appears in the New Testament, and the second is whether different forms of baptism are equally valid. To answer the first point, I used Strong’s Concordance in SwordSearcher and found the following:

909. baptismos
baptismoV baptismos bap-tis-mos'
from 907; ablution (ceremonial or Christian):--baptism, washing.
See Greek 907

907. baptizo
baptizw baptizo bap-tid'-zo
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.
See Greek 911

911. bapto
baptw bapto bap'-to
a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye):--dip.

So, it would seem that the word “baptizo” does mean “immerse” in the New Testament. Immersed in what medium is determined by the context. However, all the different “baptisms” (i.e., washings) in the Old Testament tabernacle/temple were not complete body immersions. There were various cleansings, sprinklings, and washings for those in the service of the tabernacle/temple, those being served in the tabernacle/temple, as well as sacrifices.

I am guessing the translators in their wisdom knew that translating the Greek word “baptizo” in Hebrews 9:10 to baptism would not properly convey the various cleansing practices of the Old Testament tabernacle/temple. As was said, one cannot immerse the furniture. Therefore, I would think the translators used the word “washings” to convey the proper meaning of the context of Hebrews 9.

Regarding the issue of whether all baptisms are equally valid, I believe this was debated in another thread. And may I remind everyone that this is a Baptist forum. Baptists see baptism as identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and has no salvation merit in and of itself.

Rom 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Bible historians I’ve read indicate that immersion was the practice of the early church. I wasn’t there, so I cannot verify the information. One source stated that the Catholic church officially approved pouring baptism around 750 AD and instituted sprinkling in 1311. What form was used before those times? I would think immersion baptism.

What I can determine on my own is that sprinkling and pouring do not represent death, burial, and resurrection that the verses above describe. I firmly believe Jesus was dunked, and that’s the practice He had in mind in Matthew 28:19.

To associate New Testament believers’ baptism with the sprinkling of sacrificial blood would seem to tie baptism to salvation. The sprinkling of blood on the Mercy Seat in the Old Testament covered the sin of the Israelites. And when Christ sprinkled His blood on the Mercy Seat in heaven, there was no more need for sacrifices.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having OBtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

No sacrifice could top Christ’s ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice and sprinkling were no longer needed. Therefore, New Testament believers were to identify with Christ’s actions that led to the ultimate sprinkling – His death, burial, and resurrection.

In the Baptist view, baptism is an act of OBedience following salvation, an ordinance that uses the example of Christ’s immersion baptism. If one believes sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism, then they are tying baptism to forgiveness of sin.

And, again, this is a Baptist forum. Don't try to convert us.

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