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Baptismal Regeneration (revisited)

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When we appreciate that water baptism does not save, but Holy Spirit baptism into Christ does, then we can understand such texts as:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit baptism into Christ is truly baptismal regeneration.

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When we appreciate that water baptism does not save, but Holy Spirit baptism into Christ does, then we can understand such texts as:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit baptism into Christ is truly baptismal regeneration.


Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is.

Of course Paul pretty much cleared that up. (Eph 4:5; Acts 19:1ff)

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Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is.

Of course Paul pretty much cleared that up. (Eph 4:5; Acts 19:1ff)

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In the context of Eph. the emphasis is on the unity of Jew & Gentile in Christ. Circumcision was a separating covenant sign. Baptism is a uniting covenant sign - one baptism is a common baptism for Jew & Gentile.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They spoke of John's baptism, but his teaching concerning Christ had not been relayed. A key part of John's message had been lost. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

OTOH Apollos was not recorded as needing baptism in the name of Jesus. Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

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Has the Word silenced those who disagree?

Do you just go away when you can't answer? Surely this Scripture is the heart of the significance of baptism:

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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Has the Word silenced those who disagree?

Do you just go away when you can't answer? Surely this Scripture is the heart of the significance of baptism:

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Just to be clear and not put words in your mouth, are you speaking of me?

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There won't be further commentary from me, just scripture.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

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Just to be clear and not put words in your mouth, are you speaking of me?

Not specifically - you have PM'd me, & previously commented "Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is." I know the thread was started to question (caricature?) your position on water baptism as being the moment of salvation, but I have sought to avoid animosity & study the Scripture.

As there is an emphasis on Christ baptising with the Holy Ghost, I believe that that gives spiritual life, & is the regenerating baptism, not the water.

And I therefore consider the various modes of baptism of believers to be Scriptural.

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Not specifically - you have PM'd me, & previously commented "Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is." I know the thread was started to question (caricature?) your position on water baptism as being the moment of salvation, but I have sought to avoid animosity & study the Scripture.

As there is an emphasis on Christ baptising with the Holy Ghost, I believe that that gives spiritual life, & is the regenerating baptism, not the water.

And I therefore consider the various modes of baptism of believers to be Scriptural.


Can you provide even one example of anyone who was sprinkled or "poured" upon in order to be "baptized?" Of course, the Greek for "baptized" does not mean sprinkling or pouring. It means immersed.

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Can you provide even one example of anyone who was sprinkled or "poured" upon in order to be "baptized?" Of course, the Greek for "baptized" does not mean sprinkling or pouring. It means immersed.

I've tried to keep off the mode of baptism but I will answer. Can YOU provide one example of a person baptized being immersed? I would rather study the Scripture usage than the Gk usage. (I do know about pickles.)

Do a study of the Gk, which is sometimes transliterated & sometimes translated as washing. In the LXX you will find "tabal" in the Heb. which is generally translated "dipped" & is used for dip/sprinkle rituals - Passover, red heifer, & other blood/water sprinkling.

"Baptise" cannot be consistently translated "immersed" nor "baptism" as "immersion", & the translators have made no attempt to do so. Note Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. In Heb. 9 he proceeds to do that for divers washings, (βαπτισμοῖς) which are dip/sprinkling rituals, including the red heifer (Num 19) which is contrasted with the sprinkled blood of Christ. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash (βαπτίσωνται), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (βαπτισμοὺς) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (without getting wet!)

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (Holy Spirit baptism - not water immersion.) Note Cornelius: Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Water baptism followed.


Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is intimately linked to the gift of the Holy Spirit, & his outpouring.

Note the Passover ritual which is a figure of Christ's saving blood: Exd 12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

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I've tried to keep off the mode of baptism but I will answer. Can YOU provide one example of a person baptized being immersed? I would rather study the Scripture usage than the Gk usage. (I do know about pickles.)

Do a study of the Gk, which is sometimes transliterated & sometimes translated as washing. In the LXX you will find "tabal" in the Heb. which is generally translated "dipped" & is used for dip/sprinkle rituals - Passover, red heifer, & other blood/water sprinkling.

"Baptise" cannot be consistently translated "immersed" nor "baptism" as "immersion", & the translators have made no attempt to do so. Note Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. In Heb. 9 he proceeds to do that for divers washings, (βαπτισμοῖς) which are dip/sprinkling rituals, including the red heifer (Num 19) which is contrasted with the sprinkled blood of Christ. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash (βαπτίσωνται), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (βαπτισμοὺς) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (without getting wet!)

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (Holy Spirit baptism - not water immersion.) Note Cornelius: Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Water baptism followed.


Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is intimately linked to the gift of the Holy Spirit, & his outpouring.

Note the Passover ritual which is a figure of Christ's saving blood: Exd 12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


Such a stance would place one on slippery ground with KJO folks, as well as some others, considering the view that each word used is the perfect word meant.

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Such a stance would place one on slippery ground with KJO folks, as well as some others, considering the view that each word used is the perfect word meant.

No - a number (not only coc) have insisted on "immersion" as the Gk meaning of baptism & baptise. The KJV translators in their wisdom either transliterated it or translated as washing. Surely it is acceptable to look at the Gk. I haven't demanded a retranslation. Had they understood it to mean "immersion" they would have consistently translated it thus.

I am pointing out, led by Heb 9, that OT baptisms were ritual washings, but not immersions. There "baptism" implies dipping - dipping the hyssop used for sprinkling. I am not arguing against immersion, but immersion is not specifically taught in the NT, & cannot be so translated in many cases.

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No - a number (not only coc) have insisted on "immersion" as the Gk meaning of baptism & baptise. The KJV translators in their wisdom either transliterated it or translated as washing. Surely it is acceptable to look at the Gk. I haven't demanded a retranslation. Had they understood it to mean "immersion" they would have consistently translated it thus.

I am pointing out, led by Heb 9, that OT baptisms were ritual washings, but not immersions. There "baptism" implies dipping - dipping the hyssop used for sprinkling. I am not arguing against immersion, but immersion is not specifically taught in the NT, & cannot be so translated in many cases.


I'm not personally arguing a case here, but from what I've read and heard of KJO preachers and teachers, the use of the word baptize in the New Testament clearly means immersion and any other form of "baptizing" is unbiblical. That's the common KJO stance.

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I'm not personally arguing a case here, but from what I've read and heard of KJO preachers and teachers, the use of the word baptize in the New Testament clearly means immersion and any other form of "baptizing" is unbiblical. That's the common KJO stance.

Not at all - many Bible believing Christians hold to the KJV but not immersion. It was during a long correspondance with Ron Hanko of "Covenant Protestant Reformed Church" in Northern Ireland that I came to understand the validity of sprinkling baptism - though I could not accept their position on the baptism of babies. Another well-known KJV only minister is Ian Paisley, who also baptises babies.

Also the KJV translators were infant baptist. The Church of England allows sprinkling, while the Presbyterians & Independents agree that:
Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person. (Heb 9:10,19,20,21,22; Ac 2:41; Ac 16:33; Mk 7:4)

[i do not consider the Acts refs to be proof texts - Heb 9 & Mark 7 show where βαπτισμοὺς is not immersion. ]

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But in Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 it says this:

Romans 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Which always seemed to me that the immersion was supposed to represent the death, burial and resurrection. You can't be buried with a shovel full of dirt.

Also, it might be worth mentioning...if only a sprinkling was needed...why baptize in a river?

"Because there was much water there..." why even state that if a lot of water wasn't needed?

John 3:23 (KJV) And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

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Not at all - many Bible believing Christians hold to the KJV but not immersion. It was during a long correspondance with Ron Hanko of "Covenant Protestant Reformed Church" in Northern Ireland that I came to understand the validity of sprinkling baptism - though I could not accept their position on the baptism of babies. Another well-known KJV only minister is Ian Paisley, who also baptises babies.

Also the KJV translators were infant baptist. The Church of England allows sprinkling, while the Presbyterians & Independents agree that:

[i do not consider the Acts refs to be proof texts - Heb 9 & Mark 7 show where βαπτισμοὺς is not immersion. ]


I have yet to look at Heb 9 but in Mark 7 washing of cups and pots would be immersed in water. How do you come that this is 100% NOT immersion in Mark 7:4?

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Not at all - many Bible believing Christians hold to the KJV but not immersion. It was during a long correspondance with Ron Hanko of "Covenant Protestant Reformed Church" in Northern Ireland that I came to understand the validity of sprinkling baptism - though I could not accept their position on the baptism of babies. Another well-known KJV only minister is Ian Paisley, who also baptises babies.

Also the KJV translators were infant baptist. The Church of England allows sprinkling, while the Presbyterians & Independents agree that:

[i do not consider the Acts refs to be proof texts - Heb 9 & Mark 7 show where βαπτισμοὺς is not immersion. ]


In Hebrews 9:10, don't see how you can come to the conclusion 100% this isn't immersion:

In Hebrew 9:19, the greek word for baptize is not used. The Greek used here is ραντιζω.

In Hebrew 9:20, don't see anything there with the greek baptize.

In Hebrew 9:21, again ραντιζω (sprinkling) is used, not βαπτιζω

In Hebrew 9:22, Nothing here of βαπτιζω

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But in Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 it says this:

Romans 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Which always seemed to me that the immersion was supposed to represent the death, burial and resurrection. You can't be buried with a shovel full of dirt.2Sa 13:19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, ...

Please look at my arguments carefully - I am not saying immersion is wrong, but that sprinkling is consistent with some of the "baptism" Scriptures, especially where the Gk is translated "washing", rather than transliterated "baptism." I don't expect all the IFBs to cease to immerse, but I do hope you will recognise sprinkling baptisms as consistent with Scripture, & to accept believers baptised as believers by sprinkling as validly baptised.

Immersion is inferred from those Scriptures, but not proved. The sprinkled shed blood of the sacrifices asociated Israel with the death of the sacrifice,without them being immersed in blood.


Also, it might be worth mentioning...if only a sprinkling was needed...why baptize in a river?

"Because there was much water there..." why even state that if a lot of water wasn't needed?

John 3:23 (KJV) And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

John had thousands of people - individuals - to baptize. He could stand waist deep in the river & immerse, or use a jug or his cupped hands to apply the water. He could not baptize thousands using a bucket from the well.

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I have yet to look at Heb 9 but in Mark 7 washing of cups and pots would be immersed in water. How do you come that this is 100% NOT immersion in Mark 7:4?

Would they immerse tables? From Jesus' condemnation of them, they were concerned with ritual washing, not proper washing up.

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In Hebrews 9:10, don't see how you can come to the conclusion 100% this isn't immersion:

Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings (βαπτισμοῖς), and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.


In Hebrew 9:19, the greek word for baptize is not used. The Greek used here is ραντιζω.

In Hebrew 9:20, don't see anything there with the greek baptize.

In Hebrew 9:21, again ραντιζω (sprinkling) is used, not βαπτιζω

In Hebrew 9:22, Nothing here of βαπτιζω



You've got the point! Those divers washings were NOT immersions. The translators saw that, so they translated βαπτισμοῖς as washings as the context required, rather than simply transliterating it. As you ightly OBserve, these old covenant βαπτισμοῖς were ritual washings, applying blood by sprinkling. The water of baptism, representing the shed blood of Christ, is applied by sprinkling, & cleansing the conscience in the way the OC rituals could not.

Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].
Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having OBtained eternal redemption [for us].
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Conscience cleansing!

I hope I have done enough to convince you that sprinkling baptism, signifying the applied shed blood of Christ, is a valid form of baptism, justifiable by Scripture.

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From the outset of this thread I have tried to emphasize that the significance of baptism is baptism into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The mode is not specified but inferred.

The make the amount of water all-important leads to wrong emphasis & error.

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I think I am still misunderstanding this. It seems to me what you posted only further strengthened the fact that sprinkling is not how you are baptized.

The translators showed this by making sure they didn't use the greek word for baptize but the greek word for sprinkle.

As we further go into Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

This seems to be showing that what was just talked about was about the shedding of blood...not the immersion in water because the immersion in water has nothing to do with remission of sins. To me the sprinkling on the people, tabernacle was to show the blood is what was needed for remission and has nothing to do with water baptism. So, to me, it seems irrelevant to speak of these verses in regards to water baptism.

And in response to your claim that John the Baptist couldn't baptize thousands with a bucket of water, I completely disagree with. You get your fingers wet and flick or sprinkle water that bucket will last a long time (you could even sprinkle baptize multiple people at once like that).

But, here, we are talking about blood...which one drop of Christs blood would atone for all so I'm unsure how this sprinkling for atonement corresponds with immersion of water. I really think this is two subjects and maybe you are mixing them when they shouldn't be. Or, maybe I am failing to see the correlation.

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I was baptised into the Church of Christ when I was about (guessing) 7 or 8 years old. Later in life after attending many different churches, I was saved under the ministry of an IFB and followed the Lord with believer's baptism.

Some years ago I had a relative and member of the Church of Christ pass away. After the services there was a meal at the church. During discussion among family and old friends, membership at this church was discussed. A deacon of the church mentioned that I was still carried on the membership roll. I said I had since been saved and become a Baptist. Another person said, "But you were baptized here!" No discussion of salvation or receiving Christ as personal Savior and Lord occurred. I was thankful a distraction occurred at that point and freed me from having to answer any other questions or continue on that path. This was not the time to debate baptismal regeneration. I knew this church taught your salvation required baptism to be complete.

So, I'm wondering...do all Churches of Christ teach you must be baptized in addition to believing in Christ to be saved?


Isn't this the question or post that started the whole discussion? huh.gif

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I've tried to keep off the mode of baptism but I will answer. Can YOU provide one example of a person baptized being immersed? I would rather study the Scripture usage than the Gk usage. (I do know about pickles.)

Do a study of the Gk, which is sometimes transliterated & sometimes translated as washing. In the LXX you will find "tabal" in the Heb. which is generally translated "dipped" & is used for dip/sprinkle rituals - Passover, red heifer, & other blood/water sprinkling.

"Baptise" cannot be consistently translated "immersed" nor "baptism" as "immersion", & the translators have made no attempt to do so. Note Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. In Heb. 9 he proceeds to do that for divers washings, (βαπτισμοῖς) which are dip/sprinkling rituals, including the red heifer (Num 19) which is contrasted with the sprinkled blood of Christ. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash (βαπτίσωνται), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (βαπτισμοὺς) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (without getting wet!)

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (Holy Spirit baptism - not water immersion.) Note Cornelius: Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Water baptism followed.


Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is intimately linked to the gift of the Holy Spirit, & his outpouring.

Note the Passover ritual which is a figure of Christ's saving blood: Exd 12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


Yes, the Bible provides many examples of those who were immersed in water (baptized).

Those who were baptized on the day of Pent in Acts 2 were. The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 was as well as Simon and the others earlier in chapter 8. Acts 19 tells us of the Ephesians who were baptized (immersed in water).

I take the fact that you haven’t named any examples to mean that you can’t. Actually, I know you can’t since there are no Biblical examples.

I have to admit that I am no Greek scholar but I do know a little and am capable of looking it up. I do know that the Greek word Baptitzo (spelling?) is translated as immersed. I am even less of a Hebrew scholar. I will be glad to go back and provide further information on the Greek and/or Hebrew.

Yes, prOBlems arise from transliterations rather than translations, had the scholars simply translated the Greek, it would have been translated immersed.

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