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Baptismal Regeneration (revisited)

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Can you provide even 1 passage that says we can be saved by faith alone? Just show 1?

Ahem...me again. :) (see post)
Belief is, after all, a synonym of faith, is it not?
John 11:25-26: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Acts 13:39: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
See the others in my previous post...haven't even scratched the surface yet of passages which declare people saved after they have believed and before they have been baptized.

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You got it right, brother. And what you said there fits with all the rest of the New Testament. "For" is an important word to get right, and this is an excellent example why it's best to go with the weight of Scripture.

"Jump for joy": jump because of joy, not jump to recieve joy.

"Christ died for our sins": Christ died because we sinned, not Christ died so we could sin.


Why don't we do a study of the Greek word "eis?" Does it mean "because of?" Interesting that the KJV does not so translate it. Interresting that no other reputable translation so translates it (mute since I know that this board only accepts the KJV, but it is interresting anyway). If we are honest about it, we clearly see that it makes no sense to even suggest that it here means "because of" rather than into. If it does mean "because of" then we are to repent because of. Also, if it does mean "because of," then we run into a bit of a prOBlem with Matt 26:28 which uses the same Greek word (eis) and translates it into the same English word (for). Was Christ blood shed "because of" the remission of sins or in order that sins might be remitted? Answer that question and you have an answer to your idea that one is to be baptized "because of" ones sins being remitted.

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I was baptised into the Church of Christ when I was about (guessing) 7 or 8 years old. Later in life after attending many different churches, I was saved under the ministry of an IFB and followed the Lord with believer's baptism.

Some years ago I had a relative and member of the Church of Christ pass away. After the services there was a meal at the church. During discussion among family and old friends, membership at this church was discussed. A deacon of the church mentioned that I was still carried on the membership roll. I said I had since been saved and become a Baptist. Another person said, "But you were baptized here!" No discussion of salvation or receiving Christ as personal Savior and Lord occurred. I was thankful a distraction occurred at that point and freed me from having to answer any other questions or continue on that path. This was not the time to debate baptismal regeneration. I knew this church taught your salvation required baptism to be complete.

So, I'm wondering...do all Churches of Christ teach you must be baptized in addition to believing in Christ to be saved?

While COC has rejected "baptismal regeneration" as I hope we all do, I don't think the specific question arising from the OP has been answered.

My questions are:

1. A child (or adult) professes repentance & faith in Christ, so he is baptised into the Christian faith (aka CoC.) Is he truly saved for eternity, even if he ceases to practise the faith?

2. Your reasons for trying different churches are not stated, nor your reason for supposing that your baptism was spurious. You apparently continued in the faith, trying different churches. When you got to the IFB, they rejected your baptism, & baptised you again. Is it IFB & CoC practice to reject the profession & baptism of other churches & rebaptise?

3. Should a person who professes repentance & faith in Christ, & refuses baptism, be consider & received into the church as a true Christian welcome at the Lord's table & membership?

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While COC has rejected "baptismal regeneration" as I hope we all do, I don't think the specific question arising from the OP has been answered.

My questions are:

1. A child (or adult) professes repentance & faith in Christ, so he is baptised into the Christian faith (aka CoC.) Is he truly saved for eternity, even if he ceases to practise the faith?

2. Your reasons for trying different churches are not stated, nor your reason for supposing that your baptism was spurious. You apparently continued in the faith, trying different churches. When you got to the IFB, they rejected your baptism, & baptised you again. Is it IFB & CoC practice to reject the profession & baptism of other churches & rebaptise?

3. Should a person who professes repentance & faith in Christ, & refuses baptism, be consider & received into the church as a true Christian welcome at the Lord's table & membership?


1. There was no real faith...only baptism. No check for understanding of scripture...no pause for reply. Just get in the tank and you're saved.

2. Whoa...I was searching for the truth and I didn't find it until I came to the IFB Church. No one was rejecting anything but me up to this point. I determined from attendance at the IFB to be baptised again after I was saved. I could have become a member of the IFB by statement of faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It is the practice of the believer to do what the scriptures teach as truth. To deny Christ's blood sufficient for my sins would be to deny Christ. To forgoe baptism after salvation would be to disOBey Christ and that would be on my conscience (sin).

3.Let me ask you...If God will receive them into heaven, will you deny them celebrating the Lord's supper and membership (fellowship) here?

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Look, I could proof text as you have just done, and say that works save a person. Here goes: James 2:24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified."
The prOBlem with such proof texting is that I (and you above) just ignored a ton of Scripture dealing with soteriology. I yanked out one verse that seemed to indicate salvation by works, and made my case. This is hardly a responsible usage of Scripture. In order to get a complete idea of true, biblical soteriology, one must actually study all of the verses on that subject. Here are some more for you:

Luke 18:42 (blind man): And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (But the man hadn't been baptized...yet was pronounced "saved" by Christ Himself.)
Luke 7:50 (woman): And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Again, no baptism, yet Christ says she has been saved.)
Acts 16:30-31 (Philippian jailer): Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (No mention of baptism here. The jailer was baptized later on.)
Romans 10:9, 13: that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved....For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
And...Jesus' response to the thief on the cross (along with the sick woman and blind man) does indeed expose a fatal flaw in your position. If Christ Himself says that the thief will be in paradise with Him that day, without being baptized, it totally contradicts your theory. Let's see...who to believe: coc333 or Jesus Christ? Hmmm...That's a no-brainer. :) But, you say, the very same person--Jesus--said that we are saved by baptism in the other passage you quoted. So...Jesus contradicts Himself? Uh...no. The answer is that you have to dig deeper than just isolated proof texts.

These are just a few of MANY verses which teach salvation by faith alone. The thing is that in ancient times, baptism followed very closely on the heels of salvation; it was the way for new believers to immediately and publicly confess Christ...much like our prayer for salvation is today (which focuses on the "confessing with the mouth" part). It is not "the prayer" that saves, just like it isn't "the baptism" that saves; these things are merely outward manifestations of what has happened in the heart. Those who are trusting in baptism, prayer, walking an aisle, etc., for salvation have misplaced their faith in that they are trusting in a work that they themselves did instead of the work that Christ did in their hearts.


True...and ya gotta listen to ALL of it to get an accurate picture of what it says.

EDIT: Look, I grew up in a church that proof-texted like crazy: "See, James 5:19 says you can lose your salvation! It's right there!" We were not taught to use the Bible responsibly...to seek the whole counsel of God...to compare, study, reconcile, etc. We would just take a few isolated verses that seemed to indicate a particular idea, and then twist the whole weight of Scripture which seemed to indicate the opposite idea to fit the mold of the few verses. Irresponsible hermeneutics, to say the least! That's exactly what you are doing here.



Annie, If by “proof texting” you are talking about taking a passage or two out of context to attempt to prove something that is not there (which is what you seem to be saying) then I absolutely do NOT do so. I strive never to misapply any passage in the Bible. We are to study and rightly divide (or handle) the word of God (2 Tim 2:15). If on the other hand you, by the term “proof texting” mean taking the Bible and using it as a whole to prove the truth, then yes, I certainly do.

Talking about taking passages out of context: You use Luke 18:42 and Luke 7:50 in conjunction with Acts 16:30-31 and Rom 10:9, 13 to try to say they all teach the same thing. You ignore the clear teaching (context) of Acts 16:30ff. You do all this to attempt to prove something that is simply not taught in the Word of God.

First, Luke 18:42; Luke 7:50; as well as the thief on the cross have some things in common. 1. They all are telling of things that happened prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and before the establishment of His Kingdom in Acts 2. These people were thus under the Law of Moses and not under the Christian dispensation thus not subject to Christian baptism. (Yes, John’s baptism was in effect but it would pass and no longer be effective (Acts 19:1ff)). 2. Christ had the power to forgive sins while he was on earth (Matt 9:6).

Now, you bring up Acts 16:30-31; let’s look at it in context. Verse 30, the Philippian jailor, having seen something different about Paul and Silas, asked “what must I do to be saved?” Verse 31, they tell him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and that doing so he will be saved. Now, he is told to believe upon Jesus whom he does not know. So, how is he to believe in Jesus? How is he to know the will of Jesus? Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of God and of course passages such as Heb 11:6 tells us that it is impossible to be pleasing to God without faith. So, we continue with our passage. Verse 32 says that they taught him the word of God (thus he could have faith which he was required to have. Now, what does verse 33 tell us? He was baptized. You say he was baptized LATER as though there was some great time between his teaching and thus having faith and his baptism. You add something which is not in the text. That is not context but pretext. Isn’t it interesting that though you claim that baptism is not required, the Word of God says it is and the examples we have after the establishment of the church in Acts 2 all demonstrate that those who believed were those who actually OBeyed and they did so right then. Notice Acts 8:36 that the eunuch asked about being baptized. Why did he ask such a question? Because he was taught about Jesus (starting in Isaiah 53 which says nothing about baptism). Something Philipp said about Jesus included baptism and the Eunuch was baptized right then…not later.

As to Romans 10, I do not deny that one must confess Christ. He said so in Matt 10:32-33. Notice in Acts 22:16 Saul (Paul) did so. Notice when he did so….when he was baptized.

You have still not provided even one passage that teaches the “Faith only” doctrine. Not one. Why? Because you can’t since there aren’t any. What you have done is taking passages out of context trying to prove your false doctrine.

I do want to say that if we are going to speak about “faith only” and “baptism” we do need to focus on the Christian dispensation which we are now under and not go back to previous things. You go back to the thief on the cross; I might as well go back to Adam, Cain and Able or maybe Abraham or Moses and bring in animal sacrifices which are not required for us.

Though you bring up your false doctrine of "once saved always saved," I will refrain from a discussion here since this discussion is on the issue of baptism. If you wish to discuss that, then we can. As I said to Jim, if it would be better to discuss these things privately, then I will be glad to answer any questions or comments in such a mode. If all are willing to have a fair and open discussion where we are able to discuss these things honestly without getting angry, then I will be glad to continue.

I do wish to say that I have not use any words in here to be hurtful or unkind. IF I have done so, I apologize. I do NOT however apologize for speaking the truth.

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Talking about taking passages out of context: You use Luke 18:42 and Luke 7:50 in conjunction with Acts 16:30-31 and Rom 10:9, 13 to try to say they all teach the same thing. You ignore the clear teaching (context) of Acts 16:30ff. You do all this to attempt to prove something that is simply not taught in the Word of God.


Now, what other faith would you have people believe is spoken of in Luke 18:42 or Luke 7:50? Would you submit for examination that Jesus Christ my Lord taught to have faith in something besides Himself? That path is fraught with grevious error. Pre- or post- resurrection, Christ taught faith in Himself. The same faith for the man without sight is pronounced for the woman who annoited Jesus feet with oil. The same faith was given by God’s grace to the jailer. The jailer didn’t need to be taught to fear God he had to be taught to follow the Lord in Baptism. Do you truly believe in your heart Jesus taught some other faith in something? Yes, all these scriptures teach the same thing, faith in Christ present in the flesh and faith to those who believe without His physical presence.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You aren’t in context with your attempted refute. If you were in context then you would take the whole council of faith, what it is and what that faith rests on. Your understanding would have grace providing baptism, that is not what God the Father gave to us. He gave His Son, Jesus Christ not baptism, we already had water on the earth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ephesians 2:9, 13
9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This wasn’t an oversight on Paul’s part, you are brought near to God by Christ’s blood not water. You OBey Christ after you are saved and get baptized.

You can’t pick and choose just the parts of God’s word that suits you, its all Gods word.

First, Luke 18:42; Luke 7:50; as well as the thief on the cross have some things in common. 1. They all are telling of things that happened prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and before the establishment of His Kingdom in Acts 2. These people were thus under the Law of Moses and not under the Christian dispensation thus not subject to Christian baptism. (Yes, John’s baptism was in effect but it would pass and no longer be effective (Acts 19:1ff)). 2. Christ had the power to forgive sins while he was on earth (Matt 9:6).


They are all teaching you to have faith in Christ and His sacrifice alone. You can’t offer something else for your salvation, only Christ and faith in His blood.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:21, 26
21 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now, you bring up Acts 16:30-31; let’s look at it in context. Verse 30, the Philippian jailor, having seen something different about Paul and Silas, asked “what must I do to be saved?” Verse 31, they tell him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and that doing so he will be saved. Now, he is told to believe upon Jesus whom he does not know. So, how is he to believe in Jesus? How is he to know the will of Jesus? Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of God and of course passages such as Heb 11:6 tells us that it is impossible to be pleasing to God without faith. So, we continue with our passage. Verse 32 says that they taught him the word of God (thus he could have faith which he was required to have. Now, what does verse 33 tell us? He was baptized. You say he was baptized LATER as though there was some great time between his teaching and thus having faith and his baptism. You add something which is not in the text. That is not context but pretext. Isn’t it interesting that though you claim that baptism is not required, the Word of God says it is and the examples we have after the establishment of the church in Acts 2 all demonstrate that those who believed were those who actually OBeyed and they did so right then. Notice Acts 8:36 that the eunuch asked about being baptized. Why did he ask such a question? Because he was taught about Jesus (starting in Isaiah 53 which says nothing about baptism). Something Philipp said about Jesus included baptism and the Eunuch was baptized right then…not later.


You speak about the eunuch and hearing about baptism as if that were the main point of the discussion between he and Phillip. Even after the eunuch asked about baptism what did Phillip do? Phillip made sure the eunuch was saved. Acts 8:37 “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” What happens the moment a person believes in Christ? He receives the Holy Spirit! Is the man saved, absolutely. So, he followed the Lord in believer’s baptism.

As to Romans 10, I do not deny that one must confess Christ. He said so in Matt 10:32-33. Notice in Acts 22:16 Saul (Paul) did so. Notice when he did so….when he was baptized.


Why did Ananias call Paul (Saul) brother in Acts 9:17? Were they related? No they were not related by earthly kinsmanship. They were related by the shed blood of Christ. Do you doubt Saul with orders from the high priest to perform a task had rejected those orders? Who was He now taking orders from? He was taking orders from Jesus Christ, his new master…Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

You have still not provided even one passage that teaches the “Faith only” doctrine. Not one. Why? Because you can’t since there aren’t any. What you have done is taking passages out of context trying to prove your false doctrine.


Now you have scripture references for the whole council of God's word. You have the entire chapter of Hebrews where using our “schoolmaster” teaches us we like the patriarchs of the Old Testament must exercise faith in Christ’s blood. When a Baptist tells you faith only, that faith only is not just a word but an abbreviation for faith in the shed blood of Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I do want to say that if we are going to speak about “faith only” and “baptism” we do need to focus on the Christian dispensation which we are now under and not go back to previous things. You go back to the thief on the cross; I might as well go back to Adam, Cain and Able or maybe Abraham or Moses and bring in animal sacrifices which are not required for us.


No one here has to do anything except what God calls them to do. If you want to speak with us then great, but keep your edicts in your own church. The New Testament focused on the old to teach what faith we must have. For you to ignore this truth is to discount 2/3 of God’s word. I would gladly go back to Adam with you because even there blood was shed for the sins of disOBedience and there was no baptism by water.

Though you bring up your false doctrine of "once saved always saved," I will refrain from a discussion here since this discussion is on the issue of baptism. If you wish to discuss that, then we can. As I said to Jim, if it would be better to discuss these things privately, then I will be glad to answer any questions or comments in such a mode. If all are willing to have a fair and open discussion where we are able to discuss these things honestly without getting angry, then I will be glad to continue.


I really don’t believe you want to go into once saved always saved, privately or publicly. That would make you a "free will Baptist."

I do wish to say that I have not use any words in here to be hurtful or unkind. IF I have done so, I apologize. I do NOT however apologize for speaking the truth.


I would offer that you spend a long time examining the whole council of God’s word before setting out to introduce new doctrine. Your argument, if not heretical borders on it.

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Well, this is interesting. To put it mildly. Allow a young, crazy, Fundamentalist to break out his AA12. First, some points.

1. Baptism is by immersion. I believe we all agree about that. Baptizo clearly teaches this, if one looks at the word.

2. Human beings are utterly and completely evil (Romans 7:18, Jeremiah 17:9. . .), and our "good deeds" are filthy rags in God's Sight (Isaiah 64:6). Even the "plowing of the wicked is sin (that's in Proverbs, can't remember the exact reference)."

3. For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hmm. There's a prOBlem there. Scripture teaches that everything we do in God's Sight before His saving us is filth, and is, really, sin, for everything is tainted utterly and completely, even the "good" things we do, as we are not OBeying His command to repent.

...So, baptism (immersion...) saves. That presents quite a prOBlem, because that's utter and complete heresy. As Brother Rick posted, Paul was not "sent to immerse" but to "preach the Gospel."

Is Immersion required? Absolutely. It's commanded. Immersion is essential for the believer. And that's the key; it's for the believer.

Do you honestly think that you can climb to the moon on a rope of sand (I think Jonathan Edwards was the one who said something like that, though not as a question)? Then you are a complete fool. I don't care if it's immersion (or sprinkling...), the filth known as the Catholic Mass, "good deeds", whatever. NOTHING CAN MERIT GOD'S SALVATION. We are utter and complete filth, and no work, no water, no wine, grape juice, wafer, bread, styrofoam wafer-thingie, whatever, can wash away your sins. It is NOTHING but the Blood of the Creator-God Jesus Christ.

Anything else is from the father of lies.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

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Now, what other faith would you have people believe is spoken of in Luke 18:42 or Luke 7:50? Would you submit for examination that Jesus Christ my Lord taught to have faith in something besides Himself? That path is fraught with grevious error. Pre- or post- resurrection, Christ taught faith in Himself. The same faith for the man without sight is pronounced for the woman who annoited Jesus feet with oil. The same faith was given by God’s grace to the jailer. The jailer didn’t need to be taught to fear God he had to be taught to follow the Lord in Baptism. Do you truly believe in your heart Jesus taught some other faith in something? Yes, all these scriptures teach the same thing, faith in Christ present in the flesh and faith to those who believe without His physical presence.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You aren’t in context with your attempted refute. If you were in context then you would take the whole council of faith, what it is and what that faith rests on. Your understanding would have grace providing baptism, that is not what God the Father gave to us. He gave His Son, Jesus Christ not baptism, we already had water on the earth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ephesians 2:9, 13
9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This wasn’t an oversight on Paul’s part, you are brought near to God by Christ’s blood not water. You OBey Christ after you are saved and get baptized.

You can’t pick and choose just the parts of God’s word that suits you, its all Gods word.



They are all teaching you to have faith in Christ and His sacrifice alone. You can’t offer something else for your salvation, only Christ and faith in His blood.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:21, 26
21 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



You speak about the eunuch and hearing about baptism as if that were the main point of the discussion between he and Phillip. Even after the eunuch asked about baptism what did Phillip do? Phillip made sure the eunuch was saved. Acts 8:37 “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” What happens the moment a person believes in Christ? He receives the Holy Spirit! Is the man saved, absolutely. So, he followed the Lord in believer’s baptism.



Why did Ananias call Paul (Saul) brother in Acts 9:17? Were they related? No they were not related by earthly kinsmanship. They were related by the shed blood of Christ. Do you doubt Saul with orders from the high priest to perform a task had rejected those orders? Who was He now taking orders from? He was taking orders from Jesus Christ, his new master…Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.



Now you have scripture references for the whole council of God's word. You have the entire chapter of Hebrews where using our “schoolmaster” teaches us we like the patriarchs of the Old Testament must exercise faith in Christ’s blood. When a Baptist tells you faith only, that faith only is not just a word but an abbreviation for faith in the shed blood of Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.



No one here has to do anything except what God calls them to do. If you want to speak with us then great, but keep your edicts in your own church. The New Testament focused on the old to teach what faith we must have. For you to ignore this truth is to discount 2/3 of God’s word. I would gladly go back to Adam with you because even there blood was shed for the sins of disOBedience and there was no baptism by water.



I really don’t believe you want to go into once saved always saved, privately or publicly. That would make you a "free will Baptist."



I would offer that you spend a long time examining the whole council of God’s word before setting out to introduce new doctrine. Your argument, if not heretical borders on it.


First, let’s be clear, I did not at any point say that there is more than one faith. Eph 4:5 clearly states that there is but one. It also identifies that there is but one baptism (I recognize that there are 7 in the Bible but only one applies to us today). Is this your straw man which you can easily knock down?

What I actually said is that these events occurred under different systems. Luke 18:42 and 7:50 both occurred under the Mosaic system or Law. They also occurred while Christ was on earth which was a time which he had the power to forgive sins while on earth. Do you deny these points? If you do, there isn’t much to be said for one can not have an honest discussion when the other person doesn’t accept what is clearly there.

Despite your claim, not one of these passages ever say that one is saved by faith only. Not one. We are not saved by faith only. Clearly James 2:24 states this. Deny it if you will but that is what it says. Eph 2:8 clearly shows that. Deny it if you will.

Another straw man. I never said that baptism was the main point. What I said is that clearly Philipp spoke about the subject else the Eunuch would not have asked his question. He didn’t preach it from Isa 53 which says nothing about it. But in preaching Christ, he preached baptism. Interesting that the Eunuch was rejoicing prior to baptism.

Let’s be clear, I do not deny believers baptism. Faith clearly comes first, but the Bible does not say that it is by faith only. It simply doesn’t say that.

You would have to ask Ananias why he chose to call Saul brother. I have seen it suggested that it was in anticipation for his OBeying as Christ had said. What I can say is that Saul was not saved until he actually OBeyed.

Nice try, but you have still failed to show even one verse that says we are saved by faith only. You can’t show it because it simply isn’t there.

First, I have no edicts. I am simply opening up the Word of God. Second, I don’t have a church; it is Christ church. He died for it and paid for it with his blood (Acts 20:28). It isn’t my words but His. (Mark 16:16) If you have a prOBlem with anything, it is with the Word of God, not me.

Despite your claim, I am not ignoring anything; I am just not going to go back and take something out of context to attempt to justify my false doctrine.

Tim, I will talk about “once saved always saved” or any other subject at any time and in any setting which you or any other person wishes. The Word says what it says. I am not a Baptist of any kind; I am a Christian and nothing else (Acts 4:12).

We all need to spend a long time examining the whole council of God. I plan on spending the rest of my life doing so…how ever long that might be.

By the way, I am not introducing any new doctrine. Christ had much to say on it Himself (Mark 16:16).

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Well, this is interesting. To put it mildly. Allow a young, crazy, Fundamentalist to break out his AA12. First, some points.

1. Baptism is by immersion. I believe we all agree about that. Baptizo clearly teaches this, if one looks at the word.

2. Human beings are utterly and completely evil (Romans 7:18, Jeremiah 17:9. . .), and our "good deeds" are filthy rags in God's Sight (Isaiah 64:6). Even the "plowing of the wicked is sin (that's in Proverbs, can't remember the exact reference)."

3. For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hmm. There's a prOBlem there. Scripture teaches that everything we do in God's Sight before His saving us is filth, and is, really, sin, for everything is tainted utterly and completely, even the "good" things we do, as we are not OBeying His command to repent.

...So, baptism (immersion...) saves. That presents quite a prOBlem, because that's utter and complete heresy. As Brother Rick posted, Paul was not "sent to immerse" but to "preach the Gospel."

Is Immersion required? Absolutely. It's commanded. Immersion is essential for the believer. And that's the key; it's for the believer.

Do you honestly think that you can climb to the moon on a rope of sand (I think Jonathan Edwards was the one who said something like that, though not as a question)? Then you are a complete fool. I don't care if it's immersion (or sprinkling...), the filth known as the Catholic Mass, "good deeds", whatever. NOTHING CAN MERIT GOD'S SALVATION. We are utter and complete filth, and no work, no water, no wine, grape juice, wafer, bread, styrofoam wafer-thingie, whatever, can wash away your sins. It is NOTHING but the Blood of the Creator-God Jesus Christ.

Anything else is from the father of lies.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.


Crushmaster,

Yes, we agree that baptism is by immersion.

We are not OBeying His command to repent???? Are we not commanded to repent?

There is no prOBlem. If it is a heresy, then it is one that Peter taught by inspiration (1 Peter 3:20-21). If it is a heresy, it is one that Christ taught Himself (Mark 16:16).

Let’s just clarify a couple of points right here and now. 1. I have not once said that baptism is not something that is to be done by the believer. As a matter of fact, one can not be baptized (immersed) Biblically without faith. But, one can not be saved under the Christian dispensation without being baptized. The bible clearly says that. 2. I have not once said that we can merit or earn our salvation. There is not one thing which you or I can ever do which will merit our salvation. NOT EVEN 1. But, does that mean that we simply ignore Christ commands? Nope. By the way, if you want to argue that since we can’t merit our salvation, then baptism can’t play a part in salvation then I can argue just as truthfully that for the same reason faith could not. Both of us would be wrong if we argued either. I was baptized not to merit anything but to OBey Christ will. Luke 17:10 clearly shows us the proper attitude we are to have when we OBey.

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Multiple choice.

1. Which does the Bible say?

A. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....."
B. "He that believeth and is therefore saved shall be baptized...."

2. Which does the Bible say?
A. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...."
B. "The like figure whereunto baptism doth NOT also now save us...."

3. Which does the Bible say?
A. Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
B. Then Peter said unto them, Don't repent and don't be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ since your sins have already been remmitted.....

We could look at many others including James 2:24 etc but I believe that the point is made. We can either accept what God's Word says or we can present our own false doctrines and thus change what God's Word says. Of course, His Word will not change no matter which we might choose.

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There seems to be a measure of agreement :coffee:

Crushmaster
1. Baptism is by immersion. I believe we all agree about that. Baptizo clearly teaches this, if one looks at the word.

COC
Yes, we agree that baptism is by immersion.

BUT
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Which is the saving baptism ?
A. Immersion in water?
B. Baptism with the Holy Ghost?

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There seems to be a measure of agreement :coffee:



BUT
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Which is the saving baptism ?
A. Immersion in water?
B. Baptism with the Holy Ghost?


The baptism which we now are under which is the "saving" baptism is by water. (Immersion) The baptism of the HS occurred in Acts 2 (Jews) and Acts 10 (Gentiles). There are those who believe it only occurred in Acts 2, but I don't see how that is possible since Acts 10 is pretty clear.

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I am just not going to go back and take something out of context to attempt to justify my false doctrine.


You're clearly in denial of the truth. No matter how much you would like to validate your conjecture. The entire Bible teaches faith. You apparently aren't going to accept anything in context, in or out of context I wouldn't be able to justify your false doctrines either.

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The baptism which we now are under which is the "saving" baptism is by water. (Immersion) The baptism of the HS occurred in Acts 2 (Jews) and Acts 10 (Gentiles). There are those who believe it only occurred in Acts 2, but I don't see how that is possible since Acts 10 is pretty clear.

Immersion just does not fit as a translation for "baptism" in many cases. Note:
1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Israelites did NOT get wet. Baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ shows that baptism is a spiritual experience by which we are united to Christ, & one another in Christ.

Ezekiel prophesies a sprinkling baptism by which we are cleansed & given a new heart & spirit.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Now THAT is baptismal regeneration - born again by the Holy Ghost.

I know Ezekiel is prophesying to Israel, but he goes on to assure them of the wonderful covenant promises that are ours in Christ.

Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

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First, let’s be clear, I did not at any point say that there is more than one faith. Eph 4:5 clearly states that there is but one. It also identifies that there is but one baptism (I recognize that there are 7 in the Bible but only one applies to us today). Is this your straw man which you can easily knock down?

What I actually said is that these events occurred under different systems. Luke 18:42 and 7:50 both occurred under the Mosaic system or Law. They also occurred while Christ was on earth which was a time which he had the power to forgive sins while on earth. Do you deny these points? If you do, there isn’t much to be said for one can not have an honest discussion when the other person doesn’t accept what is clearly there.


In your two paragraphs above you contradict yourself. Faith is faith. Christ was teaching this faith the same faith that is taught from Genesis through Revelation. Your points are not points and suggest that some other faith was taught. What I deny is your interpolation. What don’t you understand about, 1 Cor. 10:14 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Do a word search for faith, believe, and fear in the KJV and see how many times they speak of faith. Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

1 Jn. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Notice the "he" in the verse above. Water doesn't cleanse us of sin.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Despite your claim, not one of these passages ever say that one is saved by faith only. Not one. We are not saved by faith only. Clearly James 2:24 states this. Deny it if you will but that is what it says. Eph 2:8 clearly shows that. Deny it if you will.


James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

How hard it is for you to see whom James addresses here? The address is to those who are saved already. The intent is to encourage those saved to demonstrate Christ’s love to a lost world.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now how on God’s earth do you add anything to these verses above? I don’t even know how you’re drawing some other meaning out of Eph. 2:8-9.

Another straw man. I never said that baptism was the main point. What I said is that clearly Philipp spoke about the subject else the Eunuch would not have asked his question. He didn’t preach it from Isa 53 which says nothing about it. But in preaching Christ, he preached baptism. Interesting that the Eunuch was rejoicing prior to baptism.


You made it a point to first add water and now you insert works to the shed blood of Jesus Christ. No wonder folks have a difficult time with their faith. Faith isn't a recipe you mix to suit you.

Repeat for you…
Even after the eunuch asked about baptism what did Phillip do? Phillip made sure the eunuch was saved. Acts 8:37 “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” What happens the moment a person believes in Christ? He receives the Holy Spirit! Is the man saved, absolutely. So, he followed the Lord in believer’s baptism.
…do you understand the meaning of the words “believest” and “I believe?” Stop taking this out of context.

Now, to clarify the believer having the Holy Spirit; since it seems from your statements you don’t believe Christians have the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Let’s be clear, I do not deny believers baptism. Faith clearly comes first, but the Bible does not say that it is by faith only. It simply doesn’t say that.


How can you read Eph. 2:8-9 and even make a statement of denial like this?

You would have to ask Ananias why he chose to call Saul brother. I have seen it suggested that it was in anticipation for his OBeying as Christ had said. What I can say is that Saul was not saved until he actually OBeyed.


“seen it suggested” That’s some streched imagination! What’s the first sign of saving faith…c’mon you can say it! OK, I will. A desire to please God and OBey Him. Saul was saved by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:6 “And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”

Nice try, but you have still failed to show even one verse that says we are saved by faith only. You can’t show it because it simply isn’t there.


Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

You are really having prOBlems finding some off the wall commentary to help you pervert the following verses, aren't you?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why do you continue to leave part of the following verse off in your replies? You need to deal with “like figure” and “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.”
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

First, I have no edicts. I am simply opening up the Word of God. Second, I don’t have a church; it is Christ church. He died for it and paid for it with his blood (Acts 20:28). It isn’t my words but His. (Mark 16:16) If you have a prOBlem with anything, it is with the Word of God, not me.


You insist faith MUST be accompanied by something. God’s people already had faith and water baptism. Why was it important for Christ to die and shed His blood if faith and water alone would save men? I don’t have a “prOBlem” with you. I have a prOBlem with your misuse of scripture.

Despite your claim, I am not ignoring anything; I am just not going to go back and take something out of context to attempt to justify my false doctrine.


You're clearly in denial of the truth. No matter how much you would like to validate your conjecture. The entire Bible teaches faith. You apparently aren't going to accept anything in context, in or out of context I wouldn't be able to justify your false doctrines either.

Tim, I will talk about “once saved always saved” or any other subject at any time and in any setting which you or any other person wishes. The Word says what it says. I am not a Baptist of any kind; I am a Christian and nothing else (Acts 4:12).

“Though you bring up your false doctrine of "once saved always saved," I will refrain from a discussion here since this discussion is on the issue of baptism.”


I had to get your original statement to frame this reply. You need to see faith from God’s side before you add an attempt to limit the Lord Jesus ability to maintain salvation. By the way, I didn’t say you were a “Free Will Baptist,” I said, to believe you could lose your salvation would make you one.

We all need to spend a long time examining the whole council of God. I plan on spending the rest of my life doing so…how ever long that might be.

By the way, I am not introducing any new doctrine. Christ had much to say on it Himself (Mark 16:16).

Yes, Christ did. Regretably there is that semicolon in the way of your doctrine. The continuation is what damns a man…unbelief (lack of faith). So, in examining everything Christ taught I see faith as the requirement for salvation. What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him?

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Tim,

You should go back and re-read what I wrote. There is no contradiction despite your claim. I will leave it at what I said.

Read Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Col 1:2; 1 Thes 1:1; 2 Thes 1:1; 1 Tim 1:2; 2 Tim 1:2; Titus 1:4; Philemon 2; 1 Peter 1:1-3; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 2:1; 2 John 1; 2 John 1; Jude 1; Rev 1:9

What do all of these passages have in common? They all are written to specific congregations or individuals who are CHRISTIANS. So, by your argument, I suppose the entire NT doesn’t apply to those who are outside of Christ but only to Christians. Oh, I didn’t include James which you already mentioned nor Hebrews which is not an Epistle but is written in a different style. You know, it amazes me at the strange arguments that people will make to attempt to defend that which can not be defended.

Eph 2:8 states that we are saved by both Grace and Faith. IF it is by both grace and faith, it can not be by faith only. It amazes me at the number of people who will say that it is by “faith only” and then will admit that grace is required; they will admit that repentance is required; they will admit that the blood of Christ is required (I would say this would fall under Grace; the grace that God showed us is that He sent His Son to die for us); they will even falsely claim that a “sinner’s prayer” (which is not even in the Word of God) plays a part. IF any of these other things play a part then it isn’t by “faith only.” Really, what part of ONLY do you not understand?

You know, I shouldn’t be surprised that you would twist what I say since you clearly twist what Christ said. I did not add water…there is so much water in the NT that I don’t have to add any. You twist and you turn to attempt to justify your false teaching. Let’s just be clear; Phillip did not “make sure that he was saved” by asking the question. What he made certain was that he actually believed. Once he believed, he baptized him.

I never said the Christian does not have the HS. What I did say and what the Bible does teach is that the one who simply claims to believe in Christ is not a Christian. How do we get into Christ? We are baptized into Him (Gal 3:27).

Once again, Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Now, I see faith and I see grace which means that it can not be by FAITH ONLY. I just don’t get how you can continue to make such absurd statements. I am not trying to be rude but I really am shocked.

He was not saved on the road to Damascus even if you claim he was. If he was then Ananias sinned in telling him to be baptized to “wash away his sins” since his sins would have already been forgiven.

Neither Romans 1:17nor Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith only. I don’t know what else to say if you choose to ignore the FACTS.

As to 1 Peter 3:21, I am not trying to leave anything out. You are the one twisting what is written there. What is Peter actually saying there. We must be baptized. It isn’t that we might take a bath or such but that we do what Christ has said. Funny, you are the one twisting what Christ clearly stated in Mark 16:16.

There you go again. I did not say that it was by FAITH and WATER BAPTISM ALONE. I clearly stated that the BLOOD plays a part; GRACE plays a part….

Yes, the entire Bible does teach FAITH but it DOES NOT teach FAITH ONLY in any passage.

I am not limiting Christ at anything; God limits God. No, denying the false doctrine of “once saved always saved” does not make me a free will Baptist. Though I do believe in “free will” and I do believe in baptism as part of the Word of God….I am a Christian, nothing more, nothing less.

I would teach a man in any situation what Christ word says. To teach him anything else is to leave him without hope (giving him a false hope) and to condemn myself as a false teacher. (Gal 1:6-9)

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COC, if you were to stand before God today, and He were to ask you, "Why should I let you into My Kingdom?", what would you say?



Your question is moot since the Lord will not ask me or anyone else why He should let them into heaven. Everyone will be judged by His Word (John 12:48) and He will not have to ask anyone.

By the way, I am already in His Kingdom, added to it by Him when I OBeyed the Gospel (Acts 2:47).

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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Grace, the unmerited favor of a Holy God toward sinful man. Faith, believing in that which man cannot see. A gift is that which cannot be earned, an act of love in the giving of something of value to someone who has done nothing to deserve it. Works, the doing of something for reward. Boast, to brag about what someone can or did do.
Just a thought, Matt. 7:22+23 tells of those that will try to tell Christ of all the things they have done ion His name and He will tell them to depart for He never knew them.

Even Noah found grace in the eyes of God.

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You should go back and re-read what I wrote. There is no contradiction despite your claim. I will leave it at what I said.

Read Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Col 1:2; 1 Thes 1:1; 2 Thes 1:1; 1 Tim 1:2; 2 Tim 1:2; Titus 1:4; Philemon 2; 1 Peter 1:1-3; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 2:1; 2 John 1; 2 John 1; Jude 1; Rev 1:9

What do all of these passages have in common? They all are written to specific congregations or individuals who are CHRISTIANS. So, by your argument, I suppose the entire NT doesn’t apply to those who are outside of Christ but only to Christians. Oh, I didn’t include James which you already mentioned nor Hebrews which is not an Epistle but is written in a different style. You know, it amazes me at the strange arguments that people will make to attempt to defend that which can not be defended.


You may have little time left here so I need to get this to you as quickly as I can. I hope I don’t leave anything out but, that may be the case. I suppose if you were speaking with someone who had no faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ you might be convincing to them. Since, the unregenerate are looking for a way to save themselves.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

I’ve read all of these, not at your behest now, but many times in the past. What you need to do is take off your indoctrination and read them yourself by faith alone. Yes, faith alone. You attempt to subvert Eph. 2:8&9 to something you’ve been told. Grace comes from God, that grace is Jesus Christ our Lord as pertaining to salvation. I’m sorry you have no sight for grace from God and what that entails. God leaves us with one thing, humbling ourselves before the gift and believing (faith) that this grace is of God. Grace, herein is a God attribute, man’s limited attempt to display grace falls far short of a Holy God. We could not have faith in God if it were not for His grace toward us. We are left with an option at this point, to admit God is righteous, humble ourselves, receive the free gift, believing in Him (Christ), this is faith. I am a sinner, Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient, and there is nothing I can add to this gift. You can’t take a gift and make it something else. You can publicly show forth your acceptance of the free gift by holding up the gift before others.

2 Corinthians 3:5 “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;”

You need to go back to school and study faith or, at least go beyond the first year before making a doctrine.

Salvation through faith by grace does seem strange to the unregenerate. I understand your defenseless position before Christ and the Father and see you squirming here to justify your doctrine. It isn’t working.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 2:8 states that we are saved by both Grace and Faith. IF it is by both grace and faith, it can not be by faith only. It amazes me at the number of people who will say that it is by “faith only” and then will admit that grace is required; they will admit that repentance is required; they will admit that the blood of Christ is required (I would say this would fall under Grace; the grace that God showed us is that He sent His Son to die for us); they will even falsely claim that a “sinner’s prayer” (which is not even in the Word of God) plays a part. IF any of these other things play a part then it isn’t by “faith only.” Really, what part of ONLY do you not understand?

You know, I shouldn’t be surprised that you would twist what I say since you clearly twist what Christ said. I did not add water…there is so much water in the NT that I don’t have to add any. You twist and you turn to attempt to justify your false teaching. Let’s just be clear; Phillip did not “make sure that he was saved” by asking the question. What he made certain was that he actually believed. Once he believed, he baptized him.


I am no longer amazed the number of people who will see God’s grace and faith only is the total requirement and totally miss it. I was once like you, thinking that something else was required but, I searched until I found the truth. So, if men see the good grace of God and don’t by faith receive it but, twist it to be a + sign from man’s side then, further pervert it to require acts on man’s part, I’m not surprised. Didn’t God give water also or, do you hold it in some more miraculous esteem? Its just water and performs according to the will of God just like everything else he created. It has no value beyond, quenching our thirst, cleaning dirt, and as a means to show a likeness of Christ’s death and resurrection. God could have used dirt and provided the same significance but, in His wisdom chose water. I’m thankful He chose water because I wouldn’t want a dirt baptism. However, it would go over OK with catholicism.

Yes, you added water to the pure rich blood of Jesus Christ and made it insufficient for the regeneration of men to God’s free gift. How can you see “once he believed” is separate from “baptized” and not know the all sufficientcy of Christ’s blood. This is where you need to concentrate your study.

I never said the Christian does not have the HS. What I did say and what the Bible does teach is that the one who simply claims to believe in Christ is not a Christian. How do we get into Christ? We are baptized into Him (Gal 3:27).


We are baptized in like figure, filth of the flesh is our SIN. Baptism does not perform some miracle and has NO GRACE to give. 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” See questions at the end before departing.

Once again, Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Now, I see faith and I see grace which means that it can not be by FAITH ONLY. I just don’t get how you can continue to make such absurd statements. I am not trying to be rude but I really am shocked.


Do you really look at “grace” as just a word, it appears you do. This as I mentioned above is a God attribute. We don’t have it, we don’t exercise it, it is not something a man wields, ONLY GOD. The only thing a man can do is exercise faith to these truths and receive it freely…then, follow the commandment to testify to it by baptism. Baptism doesn’t go beyond good conscience to the believer but, does show forth the faith that saved him.

He was not saved on the road to Damascus even if you claim he was. If he was then Ananias sinned in telling him to be baptized to “wash away his sins” since his sins would have already been forgiven.


Yes, Saul was saved and there were many days before he was baptized. He OBeyed God after that He was saved.
Acts 9:10-17
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

What can we learn about Saul, from the passages above? God gave him a vision and the Lord told Ananias he was a chosen (already done) vessel unto Jesus Christ (our Lord and Savior). Ananias “putting his hands on Him said, Brother Saul” and Saul was “filled with the Holy Ghost.” Saul could see, immediately, then colon ‘:’ he was baptized. He believed, he received, and he was baptized. You are saved with the Holy Ghost residing within you, you are purged of sin or the Holy Ghost cannot abide in you. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Because you think baptism saves someone you won't see the truth in my repost, however...
What’s the first sign of saving faith…c’mon you can say it! OK, I will. A desire to please God and OBey Him. Saul was saved by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:6 “And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”

If baptism is so significant, why didn't Christ say...arise and be baptized?

Neither Romans 1:17nor Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith only. I don’t know what else to say if you choose to ignore the FACTS.


I suppose you want to add water to this too. How much more do you need to see grace is from God and faith in God are two separate things. Grace is available to all men but faith is not compulsory. One is from God the other is to God. You don’t give grace to God by exercising faith in God.

As to 1 Peter 3:21, I am not trying to leave anything out. You are the one twisting what is written there. What is Peter actually saying there. We must be baptized. It isn’t that we might take a bath or such but that we do what Christ has said. Funny, you are the one twisting what Christ clearly stated in Mark 16:16.


There is nothing funny about faith. There isn’t anything funny about God’s word. 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

Did you know you have to read all the following to get the context right then you can quit being wrong before God and everyone else here.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The subject here is Christ's death and resurrection. not baptism's figurative likeness.

There you go again. I did not say that it was by FAITH and WATER BAPTISM ALONE. I clearly stated that the BLOOD plays a part; GRACE plays a part….


So you lightly touch some significance to Christ’s blood. I wonder how God the Father feels about Christ’s blood and His grace also being a part player. John 6:44-65 may begin to show you the significance of the Father and Son relationship. Here are a few…
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Matthew 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Yes, the entire Bible does teach FAITH but it DOES NOT teach FAITH ONLY in any passage.


I almost thought you were getting somewhere. Back to faith’s definition…Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

From cover to cover, inside my KJV Bible, God teaches faith only.

I am not limiting Christ at anything; God limits God. No, denying the false doctrine of “once saved always saved” does not make me a free will Baptist. Though I do believe in “free will” and I do believe in baptism as part of the Word of God….I am a Christian, nothing more, nothing less.

I would teach a man in any situation what Christ word says. To teach him anything else is to leave him without hope (giving him a false hope) and to condemn myself as a false teacher. (Gal 1:6-9)


I hope you don’t always believe in baptism and that some day you believe in God.

Why was it important for Christ to die and shed His blood if faith + water could save men?

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him? Could he be saved?

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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Grace, the unmerited favor of a Holy God toward sinful man. Faith, believing in that which man cannot see. A gift is that which cannot be earned, an act of love in the giving of something of value to someone who has done nothing to deserve it. Works, the doing of something for reward. Boast, to brag about what someone can or did do.
Just a thought, Matt. 7:22+23 tells of those that will try to tell Christ of all the things they have done ion His name and He will tell them to depart for He never knew them.

Even Noah found grace in the eyes of God.


Let's say that I am worth billions. I decide to give you 1 million. I don't know you; I am doing it out of grace. I give you a check and tell you that all you need to do is go to the bank and cash it. Are you earning it by cashing the check? Is it any less grace?

Christ tells me that I must OBey His will (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9; John 14:15 etc). He tells me that one of the things that I must do to be saved is to be baptized for the remission of my sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). By doing what He has told me have I in any way earned my salvation? Is it any less grace?

By the way, Matt 7:21-23 tells us that the one who enters His kingdom is the one who OBEYS. That is not merit but simply OBeying.

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Tim,

Allow me to begin by saying that I am not afraid of threats to throw me off (I suppose that is your suggestion that I might not have "much time" left). I am here to learn more about others belief and most importantly to share the truth with any who wishes to listen. I will as long as I am able preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15).

It seems that we are not getting anywhere but are simply going back and forth saying the same thing. Why continue saying the same thing back and forth. I will say this and then unless asked a question or someone has something new to say I will simply leave it at that.

God most certainly did that which we could not do. He gave His Grace (Eph 2:8-10; John 3:16) to everyone (Titus 2:11). We can do nothing to earn/merit our salvation. But, that does not mean that we are to do nothing. Even you say that we must have faith which is doing something. We can agree on that. Faith is required (John 3:16; Heb 11:6). I believe you will even admit that we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5) and confess Christ as the Son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:37). This of course would eliminate your claim on "faith only." We must also be baptized immersed in water for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Gal 3:27). We do not merit our salvation by doing so. We simply OBey the will of God (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9).

I OBeyed the will of God because His Word tells me to do so; I did not earn/merit anything in doing so. I have simply been an unprofitable servant having done that which has been required of me.

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Tim,

Allow me to begin by saying that I am not afraid of threats to throw me off (I suppose that is your suggestion that I might not have "much time" left). I am here to learn more about others belief and most importantly to share the truth with any who wishes to listen. I will as long as I am able preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15).

It seems that we are not getting anywhere but are simply going back and forth saying the same thing. Why continue saying the same thing back and forth. I will say this and then unless asked a question or someone has something new to say I will simply leave it at that.

God most certainly did that which we could not do. He gave His Grace (Eph 2:8-10; John 3:16) to everyone (Titus 2:11). We can do nothing to earn/merit our salvation. But, that does not mean that we are to do nothing. Even you say that we must have faith which is doing something. We can agree on that. Faith is required (John 3:16; Heb 11:6). I believe you will even admit that we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5) and confess Christ as the Son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:37). This of course would eliminate your claim on "faith only." We must also be baptized immersed in water for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Gal 3:27). We do not merit our salvation by doing so. We simply OBey the will of God (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9).
I OBeyed the will of God because His Word tells me to do so; I did not earn/merit anything in doing so. I have simply been an unprofitable servant having done that which has been required of me.


I thank my Savior I had the opportunity to share the scriptures with you. I'll leave everything else to the Holy Spirit.
Saved by grace through faith Eph. 2:8&9
Romans 3:10 “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:8-10
8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"
9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
10 “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Romans 8:38-39
38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,"
39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

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