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Baptismal Regeneration (revisited)


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stirthepot.gif I read no where in Hebrew 9 the word baptism, and reading the whole chapter deals with the OT rituals, and my limited understanding seems to tell me that when Christ came He changed things. I am a KJB believer. I don't need the Greek, to correct the KJB, I would even ask whose Greek is used. So is the KJB the inspired, preserved Word of God or is it the Greek? realitycheck.gif
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
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stirthepot.gif I read no where in Hebrew 9 the word baptism, and reading the whole chapter deals with the OT rituals, and my limited understanding seems to tell me that when Christ came He changed things. I am a KJB believer. I don't need the Greek, to correct the KJB, I would even ask whose Greek is used. So is the KJB the inspired, preserved Word of God or is it the Greek? realitycheck.gif
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I am not querying the KJV, but in their wisdom, the translators translators translated "baptisms" (Gk) as "washings." Many IFB contributors claim "baptisms" means "immersions" & should have been so translated, rather than transliterated. Here "baptisms" has been translated as "washings" in a context where the "divers washings" are sprinklings.
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Around and around we go. Truly Christ was right when He spoke of those who have eyes and yet do not see and those who have ears and yet do not hear.

I will pray that the Word will find its mark and that ears and eyes will be opened. Other than that I see no reason to continue this discussion since you refuse to see what is before you.


Here...this is before you.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Do you refuse to see what the Bible tells you?

Also, you have ignored the question...

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him?

...and I'll add...

Can this dying man be saved without being immersed in water?
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I am not querying the KJV, but in their wisdom, the translators translators translated "baptisms" (Gk) as "washings." Many IFB contributors claim "baptisms" means "immersions" & should have been so translated, rather than transliterated. Here "baptisms" has been translated as "washings" in a context where the "divers washings" are sprinklings.


icon_confused.gif You have seen the Greek? The KJB does not use baptism. Do you then use something else to translate washings to baptisms and then back to washings meaning baptisms and then puzzled3.gif. Edited by Bro Jim
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Tim, coc has excommunicated us all & gone away. After all, the CoC is the only true church.

Can YOU answer my question about Heb. 9 ?


I can try...I missed it looking back but give me a shot at it. Could you repost just the question?
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I am disappointed (but nor surprised) that coc has not attempted to answer such points that clearly challenge his position.

Can anyone else comment on the old covenant baptisms of Heb. 9, & the point Heb. is making that the various dip/sprinkle rituals (divers washings ) are referred to in the Gk as διαφόροις βαπτισμοῖς - divers baptisms. NOT divers immersions, but sprinklings as is clear from the following examples given.




Cov. I am sorry that you are disappointed that I have not continued the discussions on this thread. I am certainly willing to continue this or any other study if a true study is desired, but as I said before I see no value in going around in circles saying the same thing back and forth.

The issue of what baptized (you keep speaking of baptism but I am speaking of baptized) truly means has been discussed. We (all participating in the discussion) have gone back and forth on it with the same basic points being made. Clearly it has been shown that "baptized" is by immersion. Jim, who denies the necessity of being baptized for salvation has offerred information showing what being baptized is. It is there.

The issue of the necessity of being baptized for the remission of sins (salvation) has been discussed. Again, the same points are offerred back and forth. To what end? Is it simply to argue back and forth?

I am not interrested in doing that. Again, I am perfectly willing to have an honest open discussion of the Word on this subject, but not to the end of simply arguing.

I hope that my words do not come across as harsh or unkind. (Typed words do not easily express emotions).
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Here...this is before you.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Do you refuse to see what the Bible tells you?

Also, you have ignored the question...

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him?

...and I'll add...

Can this dying man be saved without being immersed in water?


Tim,

I would tell the man dying on the street the same thing I would tell anyone who desired to know the plan of salvation. Why would I tell him anything else? Would it do him a bit of good if I gave him any other teaching that the truth?

How about I simply tell him that he should pat his head? Would that do him any good? Of course it wouldn't. Nether would telling him that he simply had to believe that Christ is the Son of God (simply knowledge of that fact). Neither would telling him to say some prayer which one can not even find in the word of God.

Here is a question for you. Why is it that someone will deny the fact that one must be baptized for salvation (which is clearly taught in scripture) and yet claim that one must say some "sinner's prayer" which is no where found in scripture?

Let me see....believe what the Word of God actually does say or believe that which denominationalist falsly claim is there? Not a difficult choice for me.

Another interresting fact...Christ was preached in Acts 2 and the Jews were baptized; He was preached in Acts 8 and the eunuch was baptized; he was preached in Acts 16 and the Philippian Jailor and his house were baptized.....we can continue if you wish.
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Why is it that someone will deny the fact that one must be baptized for salvation (which is clearly taught in scripture) ...

I will remind you that this is a Baptist forum, and presenting false doctrine such as this will not be tolerated. You have gone beyond simple discussion to declaring Scriptural doctrine wrong. You choose to believe that the shed blood of Christ is not sufficient to provide salvation; you believe there is something else that you must do to ensure your salvation. There is nothing we can do to earn it nor keep it, other than repentence. Anyone can choose to be wrong. And you have been warned before about spreading your non-Scriptural doctrines on this forum before. I suggest you move on.

BTW, while some Baptists do use "the sinner's prayer," I think you'll find most OB pastors and members don't.
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Heb 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation

I’m sure we’re all well aware that context means everything. It seems there are two debates going on here: one is whether “baptizo” means “immersion” everywhere it appears in the New Testament, and the second is whether different forms of baptism are equally valid. To answer the first point, I used Strong’s Concordance in SwordSearcher and found the following:

909. baptismos
baptismoV baptismos bap-tis-mos'
from 907; ablution (ceremonial or Christian):--baptism, washing.
See Greek 907

907. baptizo
baptizw baptizo bap-tid'-zo
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.
See Greek 911

911. bapto
baptw bapto bap'-to
a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye):--dip.

So, it would seem that the word “baptizo” does mean “immerse” in the New Testament. Immersed in what medium is determined by the context. However, all the different “baptisms” (i.e., washings) in the Old Testament tabernacle/temple were not complete body immersions. There were various cleansings, sprinklings, and washings for those in the service of the tabernacle/temple, those being served in the tabernacle/temple, as well as sacrifices.

I am guessing the translators in their wisdom knew that translating the Greek word “baptizo” in Hebrews 9:10 to baptism would not properly convey the various cleansing practices of the Old Testament tabernacle/temple. As was said, one cannot immerse the furniture. Therefore, I would think the translators used the word “washings” to convey the proper meaning of the context of Hebrews 9.

Regarding the issue of whether all baptisms are equally valid, I believe this was debated in another thread. And may I remind everyone that this is a Baptist forum. Baptists see baptism as identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and has no salvation merit in and of itself.

Rom 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Bible historians I’ve read indicate that immersion was the practice of the early church. I wasn’t there, so I cannot verify the information. One source stated that the Catholic church officially approved pouring baptism around 750 AD and instituted sprinkling in 1311. What form was used before those times? I would think immersion baptism.

What I can determine on my own is that sprinkling and pouring do not represent death, burial, and resurrection that the verses above describe. I firmly believe Jesus was dunked, and that’s the practice He had in mind in Matthew 28:19.

To associate New Testament believers’ baptism with the sprinkling of sacrificial blood would seem to tie baptism to salvation. The sprinkling of blood on the Mercy Seat in the Old Testament covered the sin of the Israelites. And when Christ sprinkled His blood on the Mercy Seat in heaven, there was no more need for sacrifices.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having OBtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

No sacrifice could top Christ’s ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice and sprinkling were no longer needed. Therefore, New Testament believers were to identify with Christ’s actions that led to the ultimate sprinkling – His death, burial, and resurrection.

In the Baptist view, baptism is an act of OBedience following salvation, an ordinance that uses the example of Christ’s immersion baptism. If one believes sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism, then they are tying baptism to forgiveness of sin.

And, again, this is a Baptist forum. Don't try to convert us.
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chev1958 - thank you for understanding & responding to the question in Heb 9.

Addition:
I don't expect you to change your practice, but I do expect you to recognise the Scripturally informed conscience of those who practise sprinkling of pouring baptism of believers.

Edited by Covenanter
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I will remind you that this is a Baptist forum, and presenting false doctrine such as this will not be tolerated. You have gone beyond simple discussion to declaring Scriptural doctrine wrong. You choose to believe that the shed blood of Christ is not sufficient to provide salvation; you believe there is something else that you must do to ensure your salvation. There is nothing we can do to earn it nor keep it, other than repentence. Anyone can choose to be wrong. And you have been warned before about spreading your non-Scriptural doctrines on this forum before. I suggest you move on.

BTW, while some Baptists do use "the sinner's prayer," I think you'll find most OB pastors and members don't.


Chev.

I am well aware that this is a Baptist forum. I have attempted to end the "discussion" which is as I said useless since you choose to believe in your denominational doctrine rather than what the Bible actually teaches, but various ones continue to ask me questions and claim that I am not doing what is right by refraining from answering the questions. You attack me as teaching false doctrine though I have supported with Scripture everything that I have said. If you wish to continue in your denominational doctrine, that is your freedom to do but I would remind you that the Bible is the source of authority for us and not denominational doctrine.

I thank you for the information on the issue of the "sinner's prayer;" I was not aware that you do not use it.

By the way, there is nothing one can do to merit salvation, not even repentance. One does not merit salvation by OBeying what one is commanded to do.
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Tim,

I would tell the man dying on the street the same thing I would tell anyone who desired to know the plan of salvation. Why would I tell him anything else? Would it do him a bit of good if I gave him any other teaching that the truth?

How about I simply tell him that he should pat his head? Would that do him any good? Of course it wouldn't. Nether would telling him that he simply had to believe that Christ is the Son of God (simply knowledge of that fact). Neither would telling him to say some prayer which one can not even find in the word of God.

Here is a question for you. Why is it that someone will deny the fact that one must be baptized for salvation (which is clearly taught in scripture) and yet claim that one must say some "sinner's prayer" which is no where found in scripture?

Let me see....believe what the Word of God actually does say or believe that which denominationalist falsly claim is there? Not a difficult choice for me.

Another interresting fact...Christ was preached in Acts 2 and the Jews were baptized; He was preached in Acts 8 and the eunuch was baptized; he was preached in Acts 16 and the Philippian Jailor and his house were baptized.....we can continue if you wish.


I don't want to take you out of context here.
Just to clarify your answer. Are you saying since my "straw" man dying in the street wasn't baptized then, he goes to hell?
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