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Baptismal Regeneration (revisited)


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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Grace, the unmerited favor of a Holy God toward sinful man. Faith, believing in that which man cannot see. A gift is that which cannot be earned, an act of love in the giving of something of value to someone who has done nothing to deserve it. Works, the doing of something for reward. Boast, to brag about what someone can or did do.
Just a thought, Matt. 7:22+23 tells of those that will try to tell Christ of all the things they have done ion His name and He will tell them to depart for He never knew them.

Even Noah found grace in the eyes of God.

Edited by Bro Jim
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You should go back and re-read what I wrote. There is no contradiction despite your claim. I will leave it at what I said.

Read Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Col 1:2; 1 Thes 1:1; 2 Thes 1:1; 1 Tim 1:2; 2 Tim 1:2; Titus 1:4; Philemon 2; 1 Peter 1:1-3; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 2:1; 2 John 1; 2 John 1; Jude 1; Rev 1:9

What do all of these passages have in common? They all are written to specific congregations or individuals who are CHRISTIANS. So, by your argument, I suppose the entire NT doesn’t apply to those who are outside of Christ but only to Christians. Oh, I didn’t include James which you already mentioned nor Hebrews which is not an Epistle but is written in a different style. You know, it amazes me at the strange arguments that people will make to attempt to defend that which can not be defended.


You may have little time left here so I need to get this to you as quickly as I can. I hope I don’t leave anything out but, that may be the case. I suppose if you were speaking with someone who had no faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ you might be convincing to them. Since, the unregenerate are looking for a way to save themselves.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

I’ve read all of these, not at your behest now, but many times in the past. What you need to do is take off your indoctrination and read them yourself by faith alone. Yes, faith alone. You attempt to subvert Eph. 2:8&9 to something you’ve been told. Grace comes from God, that grace is Jesus Christ our Lord as pertaining to salvation. I’m sorry you have no sight for grace from God and what that entails. God leaves us with one thing, humbling ourselves before the gift and believing (faith) that this grace is of God. Grace, herein is a God attribute, man’s limited attempt to display grace falls far short of a Holy God. We could not have faith in God if it were not for His grace toward us. We are left with an option at this point, to admit God is righteous, humble ourselves, receive the free gift, believing in Him (Christ), this is faith. I am a sinner, Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient, and there is nothing I can add to this gift. You can’t take a gift and make it something else. You can publicly show forth your acceptance of the free gift by holding up the gift before others.

2 Corinthians 3:5 “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;”

You need to go back to school and study faith or, at least go beyond the first year before making a doctrine.

Salvation through faith by grace does seem strange to the unregenerate. I understand your defenseless position before Christ and the Father and see you squirming here to justify your doctrine. It isn’t working.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 2:8 states that we are saved by both Grace and Faith. IF it is by both grace and faith, it can not be by faith only. It amazes me at the number of people who will say that it is by “faith only” and then will admit that grace is required; they will admit that repentance is required; they will admit that the blood of Christ is required (I would say this would fall under Grace; the grace that God showed us is that He sent His Son to die for us); they will even falsely claim that a “sinner’s prayer” (which is not even in the Word of God) plays a part. IF any of these other things play a part then it isn’t by “faith only.” Really, what part of ONLY do you not understand?

You know, I shouldn’t be surprised that you would twist what I say since you clearly twist what Christ said. I did not add water…there is so much water in the NT that I don’t have to add any. You twist and you turn to attempt to justify your false teaching. Let’s just be clear; Phillip did not “make sure that he was saved” by asking the question. What he made certain was that he actually believed. Once he believed, he baptized him.


I am no longer amazed the number of people who will see God’s grace and faith only is the total requirement and totally miss it. I was once like you, thinking that something else was required but, I searched until I found the truth. So, if men see the good grace of God and don’t by faith receive it but, twist it to be a + sign from man’s side then, further pervert it to require acts on man’s part, I’m not surprised. Didn’t God give water also or, do you hold it in some more miraculous esteem? Its just water and performs according to the will of God just like everything else he created. It has no value beyond, quenching our thirst, cleaning dirt, and as a means to show a likeness of Christ’s death and resurrection. God could have used dirt and provided the same significance but, in His wisdom chose water. I’m thankful He chose water because I wouldn’t want a dirt baptism. However, it would go over OK with catholicism.

Yes, you added water to the pure rich blood of Jesus Christ and made it insufficient for the regeneration of men to God’s free gift. How can you see “once he believed” is separate from “baptized” and not know the all sufficientcy of Christ’s blood. This is where you need to concentrate your study.

I never said the Christian does not have the HS. What I did say and what the Bible does teach is that the one who simply claims to believe in Christ is not a Christian. How do we get into Christ? We are baptized into Him (Gal 3:27).


We are baptized in like figure, filth of the flesh is our SIN. Baptism does not perform some miracle and has NO GRACE to give. 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” See questions at the end before departing.

Once again, Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Now, I see faith and I see grace which means that it can not be by FAITH ONLY. I just don’t get how you can continue to make such absurd statements. I am not trying to be rude but I really am shocked.


Do you really look at “grace” as just a word, it appears you do. This as I mentioned above is a God attribute. We don’t have it, we don’t exercise it, it is not something a man wields, ONLY GOD. The only thing a man can do is exercise faith to these truths and receive it freely…then, follow the commandment to testify to it by baptism. Baptism doesn’t go beyond good conscience to the believer but, does show forth the faith that saved him.

He was not saved on the road to Damascus even if you claim he was. If he was then Ananias sinned in telling him to be baptized to “wash away his sins” since his sins would have already been forgiven.


Yes, Saul was saved and there were many days before he was baptized. He OBeyed God after that He was saved.
Acts 9:10-17
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

What can we learn about Saul, from the passages above? God gave him a vision and the Lord told Ananias he was a chosen (already done) vessel unto Jesus Christ (our Lord and Savior). Ananias “putting his hands on Him said, Brother Saul” and Saul was “filled with the Holy Ghost.” Saul could see, immediately, then colon ‘:’ he was baptized. He believed, he received, and he was baptized. You are saved with the Holy Ghost residing within you, you are purged of sin or the Holy Ghost cannot abide in you. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Because you think baptism saves someone you won't see the truth in my repost, however...
What’s the first sign of saving faith…c’mon you can say it! OK, I will. A desire to please God and OBey Him. Saul was saved by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:6 “And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”

If baptism is so significant, why didn't Christ say...arise and be baptized?

Neither Romans 1:17nor Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith only. I don’t know what else to say if you choose to ignore the FACTS.


I suppose you want to add water to this too. How much more do you need to see grace is from God and faith in God are two separate things. Grace is available to all men but faith is not compulsory. One is from God the other is to God. You don’t give grace to God by exercising faith in God.

As to 1 Peter 3:21, I am not trying to leave anything out. You are the one twisting what is written there. What is Peter actually saying there. We must be baptized. It isn’t that we might take a bath or such but that we do what Christ has said. Funny, you are the one twisting what Christ clearly stated in Mark 16:16.


There is nothing funny about faith. There isn’t anything funny about God’s word. 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

Did you know you have to read all the following to get the context right then you can quit being wrong before God and everyone else here.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disOBedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The subject here is Christ's death and resurrection. not baptism's figurative likeness.

There you go again. I did not say that it was by FAITH and WATER BAPTISM ALONE. I clearly stated that the BLOOD plays a part; GRACE plays a part….


So you lightly touch some significance to Christ’s blood. I wonder how God the Father feels about Christ’s blood and His grace also being a part player. John 6:44-65 may begin to show you the significance of the Father and Son relationship. Here are a few…
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Matthew 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Yes, the entire Bible does teach FAITH but it DOES NOT teach FAITH ONLY in any passage.


I almost thought you were getting somewhere. Back to faith’s definition…Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

From cover to cover, inside my KJV Bible, God teaches faith only.

I am not limiting Christ at anything; God limits God. No, denying the false doctrine of “once saved always saved” does not make me a free will Baptist. Though I do believe in “free will” and I do believe in baptism as part of the Word of God….I am a Christian, nothing more, nothing less.

I would teach a man in any situation what Christ word says. To teach him anything else is to leave him without hope (giving him a false hope) and to condemn myself as a false teacher. (Gal 1:6-9)


I hope you don’t always believe in baptism and that some day you believe in God.

Why was it important for Christ to die and shed His blood if faith + water could save men?

What would you do for a man dying in the street without any water for immersion? What would you tell him? Could he be saved? Edited by 1Tim115
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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Grace, the unmerited favor of a Holy God toward sinful man. Faith, believing in that which man cannot see. A gift is that which cannot be earned, an act of love in the giving of something of value to someone who has done nothing to deserve it. Works, the doing of something for reward. Boast, to brag about what someone can or did do.
Just a thought, Matt. 7:22+23 tells of those that will try to tell Christ of all the things they have done ion His name and He will tell them to depart for He never knew them.

Even Noah found grace in the eyes of God.


Let's say that I am worth billions. I decide to give you 1 million. I don't know you; I am doing it out of grace. I give you a check and tell you that all you need to do is go to the bank and cash it. Are you earning it by cashing the check? Is it any less grace?

Christ tells me that I must OBey His will (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9; John 14:15 etc). He tells me that one of the things that I must do to be saved is to be baptized for the remission of my sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). By doing what He has told me have I in any way earned my salvation? Is it any less grace?

By the way, Matt 7:21-23 tells us that the one who enters His kingdom is the one who OBEYS. That is not merit but simply OBeying. Edited by coc333
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Tim,

Allow me to begin by saying that I am not afraid of threats to throw me off (I suppose that is your suggestion that I might not have "much time" left). I am here to learn more about others belief and most importantly to share the truth with any who wishes to listen. I will as long as I am able preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15).

It seems that we are not getting anywhere but are simply going back and forth saying the same thing. Why continue saying the same thing back and forth. I will say this and then unless asked a question or someone has something new to say I will simply leave it at that.

God most certainly did that which we could not do. He gave His Grace (Eph 2:8-10; John 3:16) to everyone (Titus 2:11). We can do nothing to earn/merit our salvation. But, that does not mean that we are to do nothing. Even you say that we must have faith which is doing something. We can agree on that. Faith is required (John 3:16; Heb 11:6). I believe you will even admit that we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5) and confess Christ as the Son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:37). This of course would eliminate your claim on "faith only." We must also be baptized immersed in water for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Gal 3:27). We do not merit our salvation by doing so. We simply OBey the will of God (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9).

I OBeyed the will of God because His Word tells me to do so; I did not earn/merit anything in doing so. I have simply been an unprofitable servant having done that which has been required of me.

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Tim,

Allow me to begin by saying that I am not afraid of threats to throw me off (I suppose that is your suggestion that I might not have "much time" left). I am here to learn more about others belief and most importantly to share the truth with any who wishes to listen. I will as long as I am able preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15).

It seems that we are not getting anywhere but are simply going back and forth saying the same thing. Why continue saying the same thing back and forth. I will say this and then unless asked a question or someone has something new to say I will simply leave it at that.

God most certainly did that which we could not do. He gave His Grace (Eph 2:8-10; John 3:16) to everyone (Titus 2:11). We can do nothing to earn/merit our salvation. But, that does not mean that we are to do nothing. Even you say that we must have faith which is doing something. We can agree on that. Faith is required (John 3:16; Heb 11:6). I believe you will even admit that we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5) and confess Christ as the Son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:37). This of course would eliminate your claim on "faith only." We must also be baptized immersed in water for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Gal 3:27). We do not merit our salvation by doing so. We simply OBey the will of God (Matt 7:21-23; Heb 5:8-9).
I OBeyed the will of God because His Word tells me to do so; I did not earn/merit anything in doing so. I have simply been an unprofitable servant having done that which has been required of me.


I thank my Savior I had the opportunity to share the scriptures with you. I'll leave everything else to the Holy Spirit.
Saved by grace through faith Eph. 2:8&9
Romans 3:10 “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:8-10
8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"
9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
10 “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Romans 8:38-39
38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,"
39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
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When we appreciate that water baptism does not save, but Holy Spirit baptism into Christ does, then we can understand such texts as:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit baptism into Christ is truly baptismal regeneration.

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When we appreciate that water baptism does not save, but Holy Spirit baptism into Christ does, then we can understand such texts as:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit baptism into Christ is truly baptismal regeneration.


Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is.

Of course Paul pretty much cleared that up. (Eph 4:5; Acts 19:1ff)
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Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is.

Of course Paul pretty much cleared that up. (Eph 4:5; Acts 19:1ff)

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In the context of Eph. the emphasis is on the unity of Jew & Gentile in Christ. Circumcision was a separating covenant sign. Baptism is a uniting covenant sign - one baptism is a common baptism for Jew & Gentile.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They spoke of John's baptism, but his teaching concerning Christ had not been relayed. A key part of John's message had been lost. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

OTOH Apollos was not recorded as needing baptism in the name of Jesus. Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
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Has the Word silenced those who disagree?

Do you just go away when you can't answer? Surely this Scripture is the heart of the significance of baptism:

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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Has the Word silenced those who disagree?

Do you just go away when you can't answer? Surely this Scripture is the heart of the significance of baptism:

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Just to be clear and not put words in your mouth, are you speaking of me?
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There won't be further commentary from me, just scripture.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

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Just to be clear and not put words in your mouth, are you speaking of me?

Not specifically - you have PM'd me, & previously commented "Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is." I know the thread was started to question (caricature?) your position on water baptism as being the moment of salvation, but I have sought to avoid animosity & study the Scripture.

As there is an emphasis on Christ baptising with the Holy Ghost, I believe that that gives spiritual life, & is the regenerating baptism, not the water.

And I therefore consider the various modes of baptism of believers to be Scriptural. Edited by Covenanter
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Not specifically - you have PM'd me, & previously commented "Something new. Perhaps we should have a discussion of what baptism is." I know the thread was started to question (caricature?) your position on water baptism as being the moment of salvation, but I have sought to avoid animosity & study the Scripture.

As there is an emphasis on Christ baptising with the Holy Ghost, I believe that that gives spiritual life, & is the regenerating baptism, not the water.

And I therefore consider the various modes of baptism of believers to be Scriptural.


Can you provide even one example of anyone who was sprinkled or "poured" upon in order to be "baptized?" Of course, the Greek for "baptized" does not mean sprinkling or pouring. It means immersed.
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Can you provide even one example of anyone who was sprinkled or "poured" upon in order to be "baptized?" Of course, the Greek for "baptized" does not mean sprinkling or pouring. It means immersed.

I've tried to keep off the mode of baptism but I will answer. Can YOU provide one example of a person baptized being immersed? I would rather study the Scripture usage than the Gk usage. (I do know about pickles.)

Do a study of the Gk, which is sometimes transliterated & sometimes translated as washing. In the LXX you will find "tabal" in the Heb. which is generally translated "dipped" & is used for dip/sprinkle rituals - Passover, red heifer, & other blood/water sprinkling.

"Baptise" cannot be consistently translated "immersed" nor "baptism" as "immersion", & the translators have made no attempt to do so. Note Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. In Heb. 9 he proceeds to do that for divers washings, (βαπτισμοῖς) which are dip/sprinkling rituals, including the red heifer (Num 19) which is contrasted with the sprinkled blood of Christ. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash (βαπτίσωνται), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (βαπτισμοὺς) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (without getting wet!)

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (Holy Spirit baptism - not water immersion.) Note Cornelius: Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Water baptism followed.


Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is intimately linked to the gift of the Holy Spirit, & his outpouring.

Note the Passover ritual which is a figure of Christ's saving blood: Exd 12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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