Thoughts on John the Baptist...

[Guest Guest]

[color=#0000FF]"Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [u]he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."[/u][/color]

[color=#0000FF]"Luke 1:39-44 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, [u]the babe leaped in her womb[/u]; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [u]For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.[/u]"[/color]

Thoughts on this? I freely admit I do not understand it in the least but would be interested in the thoughts of others on the subject. :Green

How can a child be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb? No one is born saved so...?

[trc123]

[quote="Seth Doty"][color=#0000FF]"Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [u]he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."[/u][/color]

[color=#0000FF]"Luke 1:39-44 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, [u]the babe leaped in her womb[/u]; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [u]For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.[/u]"[/color]

Thoughts on this? I freely admit I do not understand it in the least but would be interested in the thoughts of others on the subject. :Green

How can a child be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb? No one is born saved so...?[/quote]

It is my understanding that in the OT times, the Spirit of God moved upon many people for God's purposes and many of them were clearly not "saved."

[pneu-engine]

[quote="Seth Doty"]"Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [u]he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."[/u]

"Luke 1:39-44 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, [u]the babe leaped in her womb[/u]; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [u]For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.[/u]"

Thoughts on this? I freely admit I do not understand it in the least but would be interested in the thoughts of others on the subject. :Green

How can a child be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb? No one is born saved so...?[/quote]

Those of us that are fathers or mothers know the joy of experiencing a baby "kick" inside the womb of its mother. Pediatricians and doctors worth their salt know the value of communicating to a preborn baby still inside the womb. We read to our unborn babies and our kids did the same with theirs. :Green

I want to study some more on this topic. It is wonderfully interesting. :thumb

Samson's birth was also foretold by an angel, but methinks his parents let some things slip in his upbringing. E.G. I don't think they disappointed him enough. Consider King David and his son Absolom. We read that He (David) did not disappoint him (Absolom) at any time. We see from this the free-will aspect. Both births were foretold by an angel. One did well, and the other backslid horribly, albeit probably born-again/saved/converted/redeemed.

[Guest Guest]

[quote]
It is my understanding that in the OT times, the Spirit of God moved upon many people for God's purposes and many of them were clearly not "saved."[/quote]

The only scriptural example(beside the issue in question) I can think of off the top of my head of the Holy Spirit coming upon someone who was not a believer would be Balaam, and it is questionable whether he was a believer or not, he clearly believed God after a manner, the NT does call him a prophet and some of his prophecy made it into scripture, however scripture condemns his doctrine severely not to mention the fact that Israel killed him when they took the land.

[PastorHarrison]

Knowing that John would make the choice to follow after righteousness (just as Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah etc) God foreordained {JOHN THE BAPTIST} from the womb. So too, knowing too that John would, given the option, gladly surrender his life in service of God's purpose, God predestined John to fulfill the role & spirit of Elijah who was to come.

John is much like Mary in a respect - for God, knowing all things, knew the choices they'd make and so used them in his purpose.

John was in deed the "spirit of Elijah" but didn't even know it....and so answered this question "I am not" (John 1:20) when asked if this is who he was.

So I think, and yes it is one of those deeper subjects isn't it, that John's life was pre-destined based on God's foreknowledge (NOT FORECHOOSING) as such, knowing John would choose this life, God filled him with the Spirit based on that foreknowledge. The Holy Spirit then, within John even in the womb, lept in the presence of the Lamb! Amen!!!!

Remembering though, that John wasn't saved by Grace through Faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross - because Christ hadn't gone to the cross before John's death. John was then, I think, in Abraham's bosom awaiting Christ's arrival with the OT saints.... but man, are we like taking the sub to test crush deapths or what?

[pneu-engine]

Knowing that John would make the choice to follow after righteousness (just as Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah etc) God foreordained {JOHN THE BAPTIST} from the womb. So too, knowing too that John would, given the option, gladly surrender his life in service of God's purpose, God predestined John to fulfill the role & spirit of Elijah who was to come.

John is much like Mary in a respect - for God, knowing all things, knew the choices they'd make and so used them in his purpose.

John was in deed the "spirit of Elijah" but didn't even know it....and so answered this question "I am not" (John 1:20) when asked if this is who he was.

So I think, and yes it is one of those deeper subjects isn't it, that John's life was pre-destined based on God's foreknowledge (NOT FORECHOOSING) as such, knowing John would choose this life, God filled him with the Spirit based on that foreknowledge. The Holy Spirit then, within John even in the womb, lept in the presence of the Lamb! Amen!!!!

Remembering though, that John wasn't saved by Grace through Faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross - because Christ hadn't gone to the cross before John's death. John was then, I think, in Abraham's bosom awaiting Christ's arrival with the OT saints.... but man, are we like taking the sub to test crush deapths or what?

I see that too, Pastor H.

It's the very same with anybody though. God chose every single human being from all time and none left out to be saved according to 2 Peter 3:9. At the very same time He offered everyone a free choice to recieve Him or reject Him. Those that received Him He gave power and authority to be His children according to John 1:12. Those that rejected Him will also get their choice to be with Satan in the Lake of Fire for all of eternity.

So then, all of those that have received Him he has an ordered plan for their life all laid out that will bring honor and glory to Himself, give that individual indescribable joy, and a clear vessel for His holy Spirit to work in and bear His fruits of love, joy, peace, longsiuffering, forbearance, etc. Even still, the redeemed individual has a free choice to obey Him or disobey Him. The path of obedience leads to peace, rest and joy whilst the path of disobedience leads to untold heartache and remorse.

[Guest Guest]

Knowing that John would make the choice to follow after righteousness (just as Noah' date=' Abraham, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah etc) God foreordained {JOHN THE BAPTIST} from the womb. So too, knowing too that John would, given the option, gladly surrender his life in service of God's purpose, God predestined John to fulfill the role & spirit of Elijah who was to come. [/quote']

So, if I read you correctly you are saying that you think that John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb because God knew that he would believe later?

That would beg the question, why wouldn't every Christian be filled with the Holy Ghost from their mothers womb if it was based on Gods foreknowledge of future choices?




While John did indeed come in the Spirit and power of Elijah he was not Elijah. John would very likely have been familiar with the statement the angel made in Luke 1:17. He would have known that he was coming in the Spirit and power of Elijah from that alone, yet he was not coming before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD". Elijah has yet to come, but he will. If we look at what Christ says it points to the same thing.

"Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

"Matthew 17:10-12 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

From these verses we see that Christ called John Elijah "if ye will receive it". Also we see in the second passage Jesus says "shall first come" which is future, but John had come already, additionally, we see that Elijah is to restore all things(pertaining to Israel) and John certainly did not do that. Elijah is pretty clearly going to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation as that is before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" and it is also the time were all Israel turns to the Lord and thus all things are "restored".

I think John understood the situation better than you give him credit for when:

"John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias."

If he understood that from one "obscure" passage in Isaiah 40 and the Holy Ghost I would say it would be reasonable to assume that he knew what he was talking about when he said he wasn't Elijah.

"Isaiah 40:1-3 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Doesn't that sound more like Christs first coming than:

"Malachi 4:4-6 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Jesus came in mercy to die for us the first time, it was not the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The heart of Israel was not toward him then, but it will be:

"Romans 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."



He was indeed saved by Grace through faith, but he was looking forward not backward as we do today. Hopefully that is what you meant. I agree he would have been in Abraham's bosom after his death but before Christs.



:Green That is what is nice about the IFB forum, we can talk about some things I would never bring up in the main forum because it could easily end up accidentally leading some people in the wrong direction...

[deafnva77]

I always thought it is because John the Baptist had a special task to do for God. Just like many of our prophets and apostles. He was to be the witness of Christ

[PastorHarrison]

No, not exclusively because God knew his choices. There are far more dynamics to it, but that is I think part of it. Due in part to A. For that John the Baptist or (the voice of one crying in the wilderness) would come was prophecy and that was had to be fulfilled before Christ's first advent. B. The role or actions of that prophet were determined along a specific course, Just as marry had to do certain things in fulfillment of prophecy....her selection, based on many things, set in motion events predetermined in her life. Going to Bethlehem, going to Nazareth, going to the temple etc.

I dont think God is obligated to fill all Christians from the womb because he opted to fill John therein. The measure of grace we are each given by Christ is not necessarily the same measure Eph 4:7.



Would have to disagree with you there brother Seth, for Jesus said that Elias is come already (Matt 17:12) and it was indeed John the Baptist.... "and they knew not" {some didn't realize he was indeed Elijah}[of certainty our Lord is referring not to Physical man Elijah for most certainly that man was known well as Elijah] but to the "spirit of Elijah" which was manifested within and through the life of John the Baptist. But just like John didn't realize he was that spirit, neither did the wicked men who facilitated his death and as was always going to be the cases (just as it was predetermined that John would be suffer death) so Christ said also of himself....it shall also be done unto the Son of man vs 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. That is the key to understanding the placement of the return of John the Baptist / the Spirit of Elijah.

But would give you this: I wouldn't split fellowship with a brother over this one :wink

[IM4given]

Knowing that John would make the choice to follow after righteousness (just as Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah etc) God foreordained {JOHN THE BAPTIST} from the womb. So too, knowing too that John would, given the option, gladly surrender his life in service of God's purpose, God predestined John to fulfill the role & spirit of Elijah who was to come.

John is much like Mary in a respect - for God, knowing all things, knew the choices they'd make and so used them in his purpose.

John was in deed the "spirit of Elijah" but didn't even know it....and so answered this question "I am not" (John 1:20) when asked if this is who he was.

So I think, and yes it is one of those deeper subjects isn't it, that John's life was pre-destined based on God's foreknowledge (NOT FORECHOOSING) as such, knowing John would choose this life, God filled him with the Spirit based on that foreknowledge. The Holy Spirit then, within John even in the womb, lept in the presence of the Lamb! Amen!!!!

Remembering though, that John wasn't saved by Grace through Faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross - because Christ hadn't gone to the cross before John's death. John was then, I think, in Abraham's bosom awaiting Christ's arrival with the OT saints.... but man, are we like taking the sub to test crush deapths or what?

I went back into the Old Testament and dug this up - Elijah was a very powerful and spiritual man! If John was filled with the Spirit of Elijah from birth, then he was as "special" to the Lord as Jesus was special to the Lord IMO! Jesus set out to do his father's work almost from the very beginning - even as young as 12 years old. It does not seem impossible to me that John might have had this remarkable type of childhood too, and that indeed he was filled with the Holy Ghost while in the womb.



2 Kings 2

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men

[PastorHarrison]

I forgot to mention in my previous post concerning the fact that John was INDEED the spirit of Elijah....that Luke said it flat out in Luke 1:17 concerning the birth and life of John.......that he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias....

[Guest Guest]

I forgot to mention in my previous post concerning the fact that John was INDEED the spirit of Elijah....that Luke said it flat out in Luke 1:17 concerning the birth and life of John.......that he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias....

Maybe you missed what I said in an earlier post. I said:

While John did indeed come in the Spirit and power of Elijah he was not Elijah. John would very likely have been familiar with the statement the angel made in Luke 1:17. He would have known that he was coming in the Spirit and power of Elijah from that alone, yet he was not coming before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD". Elijah has yet to come, but he will. If we look at what Christ says it points to the same thing.

The mere fact that John came in the Spirit and power of Elijah does not mean that he was the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5, Elisha received a double portion of the Spirit that was upon Elijah but that did not mean he was Elijah either.

We still have to consider these facts:

A. John did not "restore all things" as Christ said Elias would when he came.

B. John came before Christs first coming not before "the great and dreadful day of the Lord."

C. John directly denied that he was Elijah in spite of more than likely knowing about what the angel said in Luke 1:17(scripture says all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judea) and it was recorded in scripture. Instead he quoted from Isaiah chapter 40 about himself rather than from Malachi chapter four.

Additionally, Jesus backs that up here, quoting Malachi 3:1 and ignoring the Malachi 4:5 passage which was where the Jews were more focused.

"Matthew 11:9-10 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

John was only Elijah after a manner of speaking, I do not believe he was the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5.

[IM4given]

I believe that Elijah will come back as one of the two witnesses - Elijah and Enoch because they are the only two in the OT who were taken up into heaven. But there was some discussion of this some time ago, and I was told it would be Moses and Enoch, and definately NOT Elijah. Oh well, we will all know soon enough, now won't we? :amen:

[Guest Guest]

believe that Elijah will come back as one of the two witnesses - Elijah and Enoch because they are the only two in the OT who were taken up into heaven.

I do think one will be Elijah due to the Malachi 4:5 passage, though who the other is would just be speculation in my opinion. It wouldn't seem to be like God to be so specific as to actually name "Elijah the prophet" if that passage was actually speaking of John the baptist as some say. Not to mention none of Malachi chapter four seems to fit with Christs first coming. The whole chapter sounds a great deal more like the second coming.


New question.

Do we know why the angel directed the naming of John? I do not recall anything in scripture that would require his name to be that, yet obviously it was important for some reason. Does anyone know if the name "John" has a special meaning like how Jesus means Saviour etc.

[Jerry]

John means "the gift of God" or "the grace of God."