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Standing Firm In Christ

Sometimes It's Heaven, Sometimes It's Hell

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Try again.


Numbers 16:27-35, "So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28) And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29) If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30) But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31) And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33) They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
34) And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
35) And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense."

Duet. 5:9, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,"

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Canaan was indeed cursed because of Ham's transgression. But you are overlooking something... They lived prior to the Law of Moses being given out. And Canaan was cursed because of Ham's sin, not put to death. And it was not God that cursed Canaan... it was Noah.

It appears that Achan was killed by Joshua and Israel... not by God.

Joshua 7:25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

Try again.


You take scripture and distort it to fit your very twisted idea of God. God is love. A God full of love and mercy would be incapable of throwing an infant into the pits of hell when that infant is incapable of understaning sin, understanding the message of the Gospel and incapable of believing. This type of teaching can seriously cause deep injury to people and can easily drive people away from Christ and the church. A good friend of mine left Christianity altogether for many years after her pastor, at her baby's funeral, told her that the baby's death was God's judgment on her for her sins. Her pain of the loss was very deep as it was, so those nasty, spiteful, hateful words completely crushed any hope that she had. By the wonderful mercy and grace of God, she has returned to Christ, but if she had heard a message that her baby was cast into hell, she likely would have never returned, becuase who would want to serve a God who could be capable of such evil?

God is a just God, but is also a merciful God. No God, who is completely and perfectly just, could judge a soul guilty for something that they are entirely incapable of understanding, hearing or professing. God holds each man responsible for what that man knows and for how he responds to what he knows.

Children are a blessing from God. We are entrusted to raise them in the way in which they go. While small, I am responsible for them, they are not responsible for themselves. I am responsible for what they learn. As they grow, they become more independent. At some point, they are capbable of understanding the message of the Gospel and responding to it for themselves. Until that time, God will not judge them guilty. If God did judge them guilty, it would be no different from me punishing my one year old daughter for getting food on her clothes when she eats dinner. SHe is incapable of eating without making a mess. It is my responsibility to put a bib on her and feed her in a way to not make a mess. Now, if my 3 year old looks at me and throws food onto the wall, then I will put her in time out because she understands what she is doing and knows not to do it, but does it anyway. God holds of responsible based upon our stage of development.

May I ask a personal question? Did you have a troubled family life when you were a child? You certainly seem to have a jaded view of God the Father. I hope you did not, but if you did, I pray that you will find help to work through these issues you are having.

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So what I am seeing is that there is a belief that a loving God, the One that sent His only Son, to pay for the sins of the whole world, would not show that grace to an infant. He stopped the disciples from sending them away from Him while He was here. I do not believe an infant goes to Hell. What kind of god would do that. Not my God!! Time and again God refers to children as His or a heritage from God. If your god would send infants to Hell you can keep him.

Luke 18:15-16 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Now, I am not saying all infants go to hell. Nor am I saying they all go to heaven. God knows which ones will believe in Him, and which will not.

Notice the above verses.

It was not the infants that were being told not to come to Jesus, it was those bringing the children. The disciples were not rebuking the infants, they were rebuking those carrying the infants. Jesus said 'Suffer the little children, and forbid them not...' It is possible, I suppose, that little children were carrying their infant brothers and sisters to see the Lord. It would make sense that it was children carrying infants, for He said "suffer the little children and forbid them not to come unto me." The babies were not coming to Jesus, they were being brought to Him.

For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. This could mean that such as bring others to Christ .

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SFIC - I have a question for you. When a baby dies, why? Is it because of the baby, it's parents, or something else?

Everything you've said thus far would lead me to presume you think a baby dies because it is wicked. Do you really believe that?

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Ah, but scripture specifically tells us that the death of David and Bathsheba's child was due to David's sin.

Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Yes, God did put away David's sin so that DAVID would not die. But notice the next word:

Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.


God says very clearly that evil was coming to David's house - but David himself wouldn't die. I think David prOBably would be the first to say that, after all of the things that happened (the babe, Tamar, Absalam) he would have preferred death for himself.

We all definitely give account for our own sin. But children often suffer for the sins of their parents. Starving children here in America are starving because their parents want to drink, do drugs, gamble, etc. In eternity, the children will answer for their own sins. But here on earth, they do suffer for their parents sins often. Believe me: my nieces are suffering because of their alcoholic father...not because of anything they have done. But in eternity, they personally will answer for what they personally did with Christ.

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Numbers 16:27-35, "So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28) And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29) If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30) But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31) And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33) They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
34) And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
35) And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense."

Duet. 5:9, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,"

Try backing up a little bit in the Numbers passage. You will find Moses saying,

Numbers 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Korah's whole family were against God. That is why his whole family was swallowed up in the pit along with him.

Nice try though.

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Ah, but scripture specifically tells us that the death of David and Bathsheba's child was due to David's sin.



God says very clearly that evil was coming to David's house - but David himself wouldn't die. I think David prOBably would be the first to say that, after all of the things that happened (the babe, Tamar, Absalam) he would have preferred death for himself.

We all definitely give account for our own sin. But children often suffer for the sins of their parents. Starving children here in America are starving because their parents want to drink, do drugs, gamble, etc. In eternity, the children will answer for their own sins. But here on earth, they do suffer for their parents sins often. Believe me: my nieces are suffering because of their alcoholic father...not because of anything they have done. But in eternity, they personally will answer for what they personally did with Christ.


Exactely! Sin has consequences. Others suffer for the sins of people here on earth, but after death, each person gives an account only for his or her own sin.

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SFIC - I have a question for you. When a baby dies, why? Is it because of the baby, it's parents, or something else?

Everything you've said thus far would lead me to presume you think a baby dies because it is wicked. Do you really believe that?

Romans 5 has your answer... It states that death was passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

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Back to David's baby.

Ok, so SFIC is saying that the baby died because of its own sin. Ignoring the fact that the Bible clearly states that God killed the baby because of David's sin, let's just roll with that.

Ok, if God killed the baby because of its own sin then it would have been in Hell. David said he'd not only see that specific baby again but that he would go to him.

I hope everyone is starting to see what happens when dig your heels in on an idea that doesn't have enough Scriptural evidence to fill a thimble.

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Try backing up a little bit in the Numbers passage. You will find Moses saying,

Numbers 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Korah's whole family were against God. That is why his whole family was swallowed up in the pit along with him.

Nice try though.


So Korah's "little children" were supposed to ditch daddy and go to Moses? That makes sense.

You ignored the Deuteronomy passage just like you've been ignoring the Romans verses.

"Pilates Theology" - great at stretching!

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Romans 5 has your answer... It states that death was passed upon all men for that all have sinned.


Yes, death for mankind is a result of the fall. My question is on an individual level though. Please be more specific.

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(2 Samuel 12:1-24) - "And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. {2} The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: {3} But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. {4} And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. {5} And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: {6} And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. {7} And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; {8} And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. {9} Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. {10} Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. {11} Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. {12} For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. {13} And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

"{14} Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. {15} And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. {16} David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. {17} And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. {18} And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? {19} But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. {20} Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. {21} Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. {22} And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? {23} But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. {24} And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him."

"I will go unto him" means one of two things.

(1) He would also die and be buried, returning to dust.

(2) The child went to the side for the righteous of Sheol (see the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus), where David would also go when he died.

Two seems more likely, though, unfortunately, we can not distinguish tone and such from the writings of Scripture.

BOTTOM LINE: The child DID NOT SIN. That is absurd, and the Scriptures do not support this at all.

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BOTTOM LINE: The child DID NOT SIN. That is absurd, and the Scriptures do not support this at all.


Joel, even IF the child sinned - it wasn't because of his sin that God killed him. God killed him because of David's sin. And yes, there is no evidence in Scripture of little babies going to Hell.

The Bible says to examine ourselves. One way to do that is to look at what side of the room you're standing on when you get an idea. When you start teaching that babies can go to Hell, you just realized you've left the ana-Baptists and wound up on the side of the room with the Catholics who've historically taught the same thing.

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I do not appreciate you calling me a liar.

I did not lie. Read the passage carefully. God said the infants would be dashed to pieces. He had pronounced His judgment against the wicked nation. He had already decreed under the law that children would not be punished for the sins of their fathers. Yet, if we are to believe that these infants were not guilty, that their father's sins brought their deaths, then this contradicts God's declaration that the children would not be punished for their father's sins.

Clearly, they were punished. There is only one conclusion. They too had sinned.

As to God not saying babies would go to hell, well, He did not use the word babies, but there is evidence that some do indeed go to hell.

As pointed out in the OP, the psalmist said:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Notice the psalmist indicates that there are some that are born that are wicked at birth.

God's Word tells us,

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

If one is born wicked and dies in that wicked condition, that one goes to hell... infant, child, teen, adult.

Scripture is clear, one must believe on Jesus Christ in order to OBtain eternal life. David showed in the Psalms that an infant is able to trust in God.


You are misapplying Psm 58:3. When is the last time you heard any new born baby speaking at all, much less telling lies? A new born baby is not lost since it can not sin.

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So, explain what kind of love is decreeing that infants (who according to most, are incapable of sinning) would be dashed to pieces?


You did not see nor hear me say that infants were incapable of sinning. Its they are not accountable, thanks to God's grace because they do not have the ability to realize, reason, to make necessary decisions.

On this issue you are way off base and show clearly that you do not have no understanding of this topic, plus you've proved to me you have no interest in understating this topic.

Now I will stop and let them continue to state the truth on this topic so that if anyone reads it they will have access to God truths, not just the untruths your posting on this issue.

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You did not see nor hear me say that infants were incapable of sinning. Its they are not accountable, thanks to God's grace because they do not have the ability to realize, reason, to make necessary decisions.


You are dead on correct - babies do sin, but nowhere in Scripture are they held accountable for it.

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God uses the word "Therefore" in Hosea 13. He says, "Therefore, I will be unto them as a lion..." From verse 7 forward, God is decreeing (some say it is not a decree, but I believe it is) that which will befall wicked Samaria. It is because of the abominations that they have committed. I will be as a lion... I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. The wrath against the adults of Samaria, as well against the infants, is God's wrath.

Why so fierce against infants who, some claim, could not have sinned? Why such wrath against infants who are accepted of God? Makes no sense whatsoever.

To think God, in His fierce anger, decreed that infants would be dashed to pieces because of the wickedness of Samaria, and then lovingly take them into0 heaven is preposterous.

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What must one do in order to be assured of heaven? Is there only One Way to heaven or are there two...three...more?
Many ways to heaven, but only one way will guarantee one not being tossed out.. That way is through the Door.

John 10:1-2 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a rOBber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Notice Jesus implied that one could enter another way, but would be seen as a thief and a rOBber. My Bible tells me thieves won't be welcome there. Thieves usually try to gain entrance through other means than the front door. If a thief enters in by any other way, he will fall into the hands of the living God... God will judge such as do not come through faith in Jesus as thieves and rOBbers and will thrust them out.

Also, Jesus did not say "I am a way," no, He said, "I AM THE WAY."

To hear some, one would think all one needed to do is be born into this world and that one would be assured of eternal life. Yet, Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

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You are misapplying Psm 58:3. When is the last time you heard any new born baby speaking at all, much less telling lies? A new born baby is not lost since it can not sin.

Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.
I say Scripture is silent for the same reason that Rick can say, "Nowhere in Scripture are infants held accountable for their sin." Also, nowhere in Scripture are we told that infants are NOT spiritually dead, sinful beings, either. We are not told about any "age of accountability" or of "God's grace covering infants." It's just not there.

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Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.


Excellent post Annie!

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Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.
I say Scripture is silent for the same reason that Rick can say, "Nowhere in Scripture are infants held accountable for their sin." Also, nowhere in Scripture are we told that infants are NOT spiritually dead, sinful beings, either. We are not told about any "age of accountability" or of "God's grace covering infants." It's just not there.



The Bible says that a mature Christian can discern between what is good and what is evil. Hebrews 5:14
We can even have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
The Bible says that the SOUL that sinneth..it shall die Ezekiel 18:4,20
A baby has not sinned yet.........Romans 9:11
The "angels" of each and every one of them behold His face, my friend........Matthew 18:10

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Romans 9:11 does not say that a baby who has been born has not or cannot sin.

Romans 9 is about nations, not about individual infants. But even if it were about infants, it still would not be talking about newborn infants or forward in their infancy.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

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The Bible says that a mature Christian can discern between what is good and what is evil. Hebrews 5:14

So, how does that verse apply to this discussion? We're not talking about good and evil here.

We can even have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16

Again, how does this statement apply to this discussion? Does it mean that we can know everything? Does "having the mind of Christ" mean that we know everything Christ does (IOW, that we are omniscient)? If not, what is your point?

The Bible says that the SOUL that sinneth..it shall die Ezekiel 18:4,20

I detest "proof texting wars." You cannot pull one verse out of context, ignore the rest of Scripture ("In Adam, we all die," etc.), and say, "Well, folks, that wraps that up."

A baby has not sinned yet.........Romans 9:11

That's not what this verse says. I tend to agree that babies have not sinned volitionally/knowingly...but they are born depraved. They are children of Adam. Therefore, they are not "innocent."

The "angels" of each and every one of them behold His face, my friend........Matthew 18:10

What exactly does that mean? About whom is Jesus speaking (see verse 6)? And what does it have to do with this discussion?

Please know that I'm not taking sides in this discussion...I just really think the evidence for any side ("babies always go to heaven," "babies never go to heaven," "some babies go to heaven") is too scanty to make any dogmatic statements. Hey, I'd LOVE to believe that babies go to heaven. But Scripture is silent, or at least ambiguous, which is borne out by the fact that different people come to different conclusions, based mostly on their understanding and perspective of soteriology. (Calvinists, who place more emphasis on the sovereignty of God, would say that only babies who are part of the elect go to heaven; Arminians, who place more emphasis on human volition, understanding, and action, would tend to say that since a baby isn't able to choose for himself, he cannot be held responsible for his depravity.)

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