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Standing Firm In Christ

Sometimes It's Heaven, Sometimes It's Hell

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Calm down brother. :icon_mrgreen:

Once saved, we are no longer wicked. We are righteous in the eyes of God. We can, and do, still sin, but we are no longer wicked.

I don't see how those verses in Romans teach an age of accountability.


They clearly teach it. One verse says that sin is not imputed when there is no law, and the other verse talks about Paul being alive once, and dying once the commandment came and sin revived in him. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin. God doesn't impute sin to babies. There is a law written in the heart of every man, and there is a time before that law is written. In understand that technically Jer. 31:33 is a reference to the New Covenant, but the idea of a law in the heart remains the same.

Rom. 7:9, “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”
Rom. 5:13, “For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jer. 31:33, "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

So we sin, but we're not sinners? The difference between being a sinner and being wicked is very subjective. We're not sinners in God's eyes, but it doesn't change the fact that we are still sinners - our sins just aren't imputed to us, just like babies.

I can't believe you'd even entertain the idea that God throws babies into Hell. This is ridiculous. Where do babies go to Hell in the Bible? Where do babies acknowledge that they're a sinner in need of a Saviour.... before learning to crawl or even smile? If a baby dies, according to SFIC, there's a good reason to believe it’s because of its own sin and rejection of Christ (no Bible). What a great comfort to ladies who've had miscarriages or had preemies die! Wow!

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I can't believe you'd even entertain the idea that God throws babies into Hell. This is ridiculous. Where do babies go to Hell in the Bible? Where do babies acknowledge that they're a sinner in need of a Saviour.... before learning to crawl or even smile? If a baby dies, according to SFIC, there's a good reason to believe it’s because of its own sin and rejection of Christ (no Bible). What a great comfort to ladies who've had miscarriages or had preemies die! Wow!


Talk about taking leaps! I never said I entertained anything other than that I trust God.


What great comfort do ladies have when their lost 16 year old son dies in a car crash or their lost 19 year old son dies of a drug overdose or their lost 32 year old son is killed in combat?

Our comfort is in the Lord whether we understand everything or not; whether we like what happens or not, whether we agree or not.

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"I trust God" and "Our comfort is in the Lord" is easy to say but where the rubber meets the road is knowing the truth about what happened to those children and where they are. One of my best friends lost two babies before they were both three months old out of the womb and I know several ladies who've had miscarriages.

I Thess. 4 tells us to comfort one another with the fact that we can know we'll see them again in the resurrection.

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You are basing your entire theology on Psalm 58.3, which is poetry. It is not written literally. It is figurative language written by David expressing his raw emotions about the wickedness of his enemies.

Babies are in no way, shape or form wicked,. A god who sees infants as wicked is not a God I want to serve. Babies are a gift from God. They are innocent and pure. They have a sin nature, but they have no knowledge of sin. They cannot unerstand or comprehend.

As I said, if the grace of God through Christ cannot bring salvation to a baby, then there is no hope for any of us. What do you say about Romans where Paul writes that those who have no knowledge of Christ can have salvation if they follow what God has revealed to them? Babies have no way of knowing and udnerstanding sin and Christ. God will hold them responsible for what they know...and that is nothing...they will be seen as blameless and pure before God.

May God remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There is no Salvation outside of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 12 that if He was lifted up from the earth He would draw all men unto Himself. He was lifted up. All men does not just mean all men, it means all mankind... infant and adult alike are part of all mankind.

Jesus said he that believeth not is condemned already in John 3:18, and John said that he that believeth not shall not see life.

There is no life apart from believing in Christ. There is no other way to be saved. All must come to Christ in faith or die without Him.

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"I trust God" and "Our comfort is in the Lord" is easy to say but where the rubber meets the road is knowing the truth about what happened to those children and where they are. One of my best friends lost two babies before they were both three months old out of the womb and I know several ladies who've had miscarriages.

I Thess. 4 tells us to comfort one another with the fact that we can know we'll see them again in the resurrection.


The truth is, Scripture doesn't tell us what becomes of babies or children who die. It should be comforting enough for all of us to know that God will deal with everyone justly. My Mom had twins die at birth and a daughter that died shortly after birth. I trust the Lord has and will do justly with my brother and sisters.

First Thess. 4 isn't dealing with babies and children but with the born again in Christ.

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What age will folks in heaven and hell be? Will they be the age they were when they died? Will they somehow be transformed to another age at translation?

Will heaven be filled with babies who remain babies eternally? Will babies suddenly become adults and be received into heaven with those who trusted in Christ though they never did?

Do we know from Scripture the answers to these questions?

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What age will folks in heaven and hell be? Will they be the age they were when they died? Will they somehow be transformed to another age at translation?

Will heaven be filled with babies who remain babies eternally? Will babies suddenly become adults and be received into heaven with those who trusted in Christ though they never did?

Do we know from Scripture the answers to these questions?

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I have often thought of that. Paul seems to state here that we will not change as far as appearance. We will know as we were known. I believe the mother will know her child and the child his mother. Aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters, neighbors, friends, family... we will somehow know them.

I met a preacher some time back and attended many of his meetings. Now, I have not seen him in several years and it is my understanding that his appearance has changed. Yet, somehow I will know him if he is saved and enters heaven. I believe he is saved. His fruits certainly are good

But what of the child who died when this minister was younger. That child saw a young man, I saw an older balding man. Now the man is even more changed. Yet, somehow he will be recognized.

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"I trust God" and "Our comfort is in the Lord" is easy to say but where the rubber meets the road is knowing the truth about what happened to those children and where they are. One of my best friends lost two babies before they were both three months old out of the womb and I know several ladies who've had miscarriages.

I Thess. 4 tells us to comfort one another with the fact that we can know we'll see them again in the resurrection.


I do not believe you will change his mind.

As for me, its clear, God does not hold the infants accountable, until they are of a age that can grasp the meaning of being lost, He decides that age, not us, that they are sinners, that there is a penalty for sin, and that Christ paid this penalty by dying on the cross for us, by accepting Christ as Savior their sin will not be imputed unto them.

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I do not believe you will change his mind.

As for me, its clear, God does not hold the infants accountable, until they are of a age that can grasp the meaning of being lost, He decides that age, not us, that they are sinners, that there is a penalty for sin, and that Christ paid this penalty by dying on the cross for us, by accepting Christ as Savior their sin will not be imputed unto them.

So, explain what kind of love is decreeing that infants (who according to most, are incapable of sinning) would be dashed to pieces?

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Ezekiel 9 gives another account of God giving the command to destroy infants along with the old. An interesting not is God 's telling a man with an inkhorn to set marks on those who cry aloud because of the abominations that are being committed. He tells those with weapons to kill all, both utterly old and young maidens and young children. But the men who were godly, (those with the marks) were not to be killed.

We see a similar event during the tribulation, when 144,000 servants of God are sealed and then the command is given to destroy nothing green, nor any who have the seal of God.

I again have to believe the infants in Ezekiel 9 were guilty of committing sin because God had already said that children were not to be put to death for the sins of their fathers.

(NOTE: While the events in Ezekiel 9 were a vision, they were a vision of events that would eventually take place)

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Sin affects everyone, not just those who commit it. Look at the story of David and Bathsheba. There is no mention of their child "sinning"; he was made ill because of the sin of his father.

Feliz Navidad!
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

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There are some who have speculated that babies and children who have died will be placed on earth during the thousand years so they will be able to accept or reject Christ.

Others have speculated there is a special place reserved for the babies and children who died where they will either mature or God will mature them (in some similar manner as to how God created Adam mature), where they will be presented with the opportunity to accept or reject Christ.

Scripture declares there is only way to heaven, and that is through accepting Christ as Saviour and Lord. Are there one or more exceptions that Scripture doesn't mention which covers babies, young children, the mentally disabled and others?

God doesn't have to reveal all the details to us. His Word tells us enough to know that whatever He does with anyone, including you, I and every other person who has lived, is alive, or will live, will be perfect.

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Along with speculations of such matters, is the speculation that all people will spend eternity with their new body at about age 33.

God knows all. He knows who will accept Christ and who will reject Christ before they are even born.

Ten babies die. God knows 1 would have accepted Christ and the other 9 would have rejected Christ. Does God reward all 10 with acceptance into heaven as translated, matured to 33 year olds?

Is it possilbe that God's dealing with those who died as babies or young children will certainly be done justly, but in a way or manner we know not?

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Wow.

People who come up with strange and never-before-heard "doctrine" by putting various verses together are usually quite dangerous.

In the OT, pretty much anyone who wasn't an Israelite went to hell because they were not yet under grace. Unless they were someone like Rahab, or Ruth, who specifically reached out to believe. Whether that also includes their babies and young children...well...my theory is that it possibly could have but only God knows. We do know that the babies of saved people (i.e. David) went to heaven. Only God knows if, say, the miscarried baby of Goliath's wife went to heaven....we can speculate but to make a doctrine from it would not be right.

In the new Testament we are under grace....and yes the passage about sin not being imputed when there is no law (or no understanding of law) is a good hint as to the truth. Another passage I keep in mind is that a saved spouse should try to stay married to a lost spouse because the children are sanctified by at least one saved spouse. To me, and its just a theory, that the children of at least one saved spouse, and under the age of accountability, will go up in the rapture with the saved parent, at the very least. I will not dare to speculate that children of lost parents go to hell if they die early because only God knows that (and I hope not)...but I'm pretty convinced that in the rapture, at least, that lost children will stay with lost parents on earth (its most humane, anyway, technically, for the short term) and saved children will accompany a saved parent to heaven in the rapture. I do NOT believe all kids will disappear in the rapture.

I have also heard the theory that any child who went to heaven before the age of accountability will have an opportunity to make their conscious choice during the Millenium. Its something to think about....

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1 John 3:2 tells us: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

I think that encompasses every aspect of what we see: His "age," His perfection, etc. When He shall appear seems to indicate the rapture, so that becoming like Him would be for the dead and the alive (in Christ).

As to babies in Heaven or not - I truly think the idea that an infant can believe on Christ in the womb is a ludicrous idea. Why? Well, simply (as has been pointed) for the reason that the babe doesn't know sin (please note that I did not say the babe wasn't a sinner - big difference, as anyone who has reared a child knows). How can I say that? The Bible clearly teaches us that knowledge of the law is what brought knowledge of sin to us. As babies and then children, how do we come to know what the law teaches? By parental instruction as to what is right and wrong. It is that teaching that eventually allows a child to realize that they indeed are sinners, that they indeed commit sin. And that is when they will be to the point where they can understand repentance and salvation. Teaching anything else actually goes against scripture, reading into it that which is not.

Will babies who die go to heaven? Well, you know, someone (I think it was John) mentioned that 10 babies die, God knows that 9 out of those 10 wouldn't accept Him, so...That kind of makes sense - except for one little thing: If those babies die, God knew they were going to die from the foundation of the world. So, He also knew that they would never have the opportunity to grow old enough to recognize the fact that they are sinners and in need of a Saviour.

So where does that leave babies? Under God's wrath or under His mercy? I believe under his mercy.

David knew very well that he was going to spend eternity with God. The Psalms mention his knowledge that he will do so. And when questioned as to why he didn't mourn his dead baby, he stated that the child could no longer come to him (scriptural proof that the dead don't visit us), but that he,David, would go to the child. Now, David shows us that he knows without any doubt that he will go to be with God. And he says he will go to be with his child. His child, therefore, must have been in Heaven.

If we try to say that some babies go to Heaven and some go to Hell, then based on David's knowledge that his son was with God, we'd have to say that it is contingent upon the relationship of the parent(s) to Christ. And that is unscriptural.

There are many things we do not and cannot this side of Heaven understand about some of God's ways in the Old Testament. But to take something like the dashing of babies against stones and extrapolate from that, that some babies go to Hell is, has been said already, a stretch. A biiiig stretch.

I don't believe that babies who die before the millennium will have a chance to repent...there is absolutely no teaching in scripture that upholds that idea. Those in the millennium who make a choice between Christ and the devil are physically alive. Babies who have died are not - they are in spirit form, just as we will be (or, at the most the physical form Christ was in after His resurrection...remember, we shall be like Him...)

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Wow.

People who come up with strange and never-before-heard "doctrine" by putting various verses together are usually quite dangerous.

In the OT, pretty much anyone who wasn't an Israelite went to hell because they were not yet under grace. Unless they were someone like Rahab, or Ruth, who specifically reached out to believe. Whether that also includes their babies and young children...well...my theory is that it possibly could have but only God knows. We do know that the babies of saved people (i.e. David) went to heaven. Only God knows if, say, the miscarried baby of Goliath's wife went to heaven....we can speculate but to make a doctrine from it would not be right.

In the new Testament we are under grace....and yes the passage about sin not being imputed when there is no law (or no understanding of law) is a good hint as to the truth. Another passage I keep in mind is that a saved spouse should try to stay married to a lost spouse because the children are sanctified by at least one saved spouse. To me, and its just a theory, that the children of at least one saved spouse, and under the age of accountability, will go up in the rapture with the saved parent, at the very least. I will not dare to speculate that children of lost parents go to hell if they die early because only God knows that (and I hope not)...but I'm pretty convinced that in the rapture, at least, that lost children will stay with lost parents on earth (its most humane, anyway, technically, for the short term) and saved children will accompany a saved parent to heaven in the rapture. I do NOT believe all kids will disappear in the rapture.

I have also heard the theory that any child who went to heaven before the age of accountability will have an opportunity to make their conscious choice during the Millenium. Its something to think about....


True, we can speculate and such but in the end we can rest assured that whatever the Lord has determined in this area it will be just and we will recognize it as such when we are with the Lord.

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Sin affects everyone, not just those who commit it. Look at the story of David and Bathsheba. There is no mention of their child "sinning"; he was made ill because of the sin of his father.

Feliz Navidad!
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

Explain why it happened thus after God declared that children would not be put to death for the sins of their fathers in the Mosaic Law? Is it not possible that the child of David could have sinned too?

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You put yourself in a bad spot there, SFIC. God specifically said that David's child was going to die because of his father's sin of adultery.

Like I've tried to say over and over again, the Mosaic Law is man's dealings with man and it does not limit God. God said He punished those to the third and fourth generation of those that hate Him. Remember, it was Ham that sinned - but God cursed Canaan, Ham's son. Remember Achan? He sinned and his whole family was killed by God because of it.

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2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Scripture cannot contradict itself, nor can God lie. God had already decreed that children will not be put to death for their father's sins.

In the judgment pronounced by Nathan, he said that God had 'put away' David's sin. And that David would not die. David had just confessed His sin before Nathan and according to 1 John 1:9, if we confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. David, because of his confession, was forgiven; God had 'put away' his sin.

Yet, there are consequences of sin. The consequences of David's sin could not have been the death of the child. For God had already declared that the children would not die for the sins of their fathers. The consequences for David's sins appears to be the fact that the enemies of God had great occasion to blaspheme.

Since children were not to die because of their father's sins, it appears to me that the pronouncement of death upon the infant was entirely separate from David's sin. Something that God had showed Nathan was to happen.

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You put yourself in a bad spot there, SFIC. God specifically said that David's child was going to die because of his father's sin of adultery.

Like I've tried to say over and over again, the Mosaic Law is man's dealings with man and it does not limit God. God said He punished those to the third and fourth generation of those that hate Him. Remember, it was Ham that sinned - but God cursed Canaan, Ham's son. Remember Achan? He sinned and his whole family was killed by God because of it.

Canaan was indeed cursed because of Ham's transgression. But you are overlooking something... They lived prior to the Law of Moses being given out. And Canaan was cursed because of Ham's sin, not put to death. And it was not God that cursed Canaan... it was Noah.

It appears that Achan was killed by Joshua and Israel... not by God.

Joshua 7:25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

Try again.

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Wasn't the context of the children not paying for the sins of the father a prophetic statement referring to the age of grace, post-resurrection? Because practically speaking, a lot of people end up suffering because of the sins of a father or mother or sibling or grandparent...even lost people.

And it doesn't have to mean babies...it can even mean an adult child.

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So what I am seeing is that there is a belief that a loving God, the One that sent His only Son, to pay for the sins of the whole world, would not show that grace to an infant. He stopped the disciples from sending them away from Him while He was here. I do not believe an infant goes to Hell. What kind of god would do that. Not my God!! Time and again God refers to children as His or a heritage from God. If your god would send infants to Hell you can keep him.

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I hope no infants go to hell!!!!!

Sometimes though part of me wonders if abortion could be a good thing...if all infants go to Heaven...does that mean with abortion, more people go to heaven than would otherwise happen without abortion?

I don't believe that of course, just saying it hypothetically.....

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Wasn't the context of the children not paying for the sins of the father a prophetic statement referring to the age of grace, post-resurrection? Because practically speaking, a lot of people end up suffering because of the sins of a father or mother or sibling or grandparent...even lost people.

And it doesn't have to mean babies...it can even mean an adult child.

The thing is, it states that all must give account for his own sin. So if the infants in Hosea were not dashed to pieces for their parent's sins, (which Deuteronomy 24 seems to say is not to happen) why were they dashed to pieces? For God's enjoyment? Certainly not!

By the way, children can mean and children from infancy to adulthood.

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