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Standing Firm In Christ

Sometimes It's Heaven, Sometimes It's Hell

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Dying and going to Hell are two different things. When God kills a Christian for backsliding that means they're going to Hell to?

I Cor. 5:5, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

I Cor. 3:17, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are."

Like I said before, God didn't make a decree to murder infants in Hosea 13:16 because of their sins. The children dying is as a result of one nation attacking another. You're putting something there that's not.

What a terrible thing to say - that God throws babies into Hell! You sit there and say "I have to go with Scripture here, Rick..." but you have NOTHING that states that God throws babies into Hell! You have no evidence that God judges a baby personally for its own sins! You have nothing, no evidence at all. What's next - infant baptismal regeneration? You need to think seriously about what you're trying to say here.

Yes - God doesn't hold a baby's sins against it. That's what the Bible clearly says:

Rom. 7:9, “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”
Rom. 5:13, “For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You've yet to expound on these verses in Romans, and it is the fourth time I've pointed that out to you.

You say the death of the infants in Hosea were because of the sins of others, yet that flies in the face of Scripture. The Law stated the children would not be put to death for their father's sins.

2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Chronicles 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

As I said, I'll stick with the Bible on this one.

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If not, it seems he has things in common with him.

I know who Thomas Cooper is and my husband has NOTHING in common with him...he doesn't even know who Thomas Cooper is. I certainly don't agree with everything my husband says here in this thread, but to compare him to Thomas Cooper is basically presupposition.

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As to infant baptismal regeneration, I don't believe in baptizing infants for they have no way to communicate with me what they believe or don't believe. I would not baptize an infant unless God miraculously give that infant the ability to profess his or her faith in Christ and gave me an ability to understand that profession was genuine.

But even if God miraculously allowed an infant to speak in English professing his faith, I do not believe water baptism regenerates any more than sitting in a bakery makes one a doughnut.

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As to infant baptismal regeneration, I don't believe in baptizing infants for they have no way to communicate with me what they believe or don't believe. I would not baptize an infant unless God miraculously give that infant the ability to profess his or her faith in Christ and gave me an ability to understand that profession was genuine.

But even if God miraculously allowed an infant to speak in English professing his faith, I do not believe water baptism regenerates any more than sitting in a bakery makes one a doughnut.



I understand you are speaking about who you would or would not baptize and that is dependent on their profession of faith. But a portion of how you've written this is somewhat confusing to me. Are you saying or implying that it is the ability of the individual to "speak in English professing his faith" critical to salvation? Or are you saying in general some sort of profession? There are mute people who certainly can not speak, and millions who do know speak English. Is the profession critical to salvation, or believing with the heart critical, evidenced by the profession of faith?

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I understand you are speaking about who you would or would not baptize and that is dependent on their profession of faith. But a portion of how you've written this is somewhat confusing to me. Are you saying or implying that it is the ability of the individual to "speak in English professing his faith" critical to salvation? Or are you saying in general some sort of profession? There are mute people who certainly can not speak, and millions who do know speak English. Is the profession critical to salvation, or believing with the heart critical, evidenced by the profession of faith?

In Acts 8:37, Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch that he could be baptized if he believed. I do believe a profession of faith is a prerequisite to anyone being baptized, otherwise Philip would not have spoke thus to the eunuch.

As to mutes professing, must the profession be an audible profession? They could easily sign (as a deaf person does) or they could write down their profession I would suppose.

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If an infant goes to hell when he or she dies, then God is not a just God.. I can imagine nothing more unjust than sending a baby into eternal damnation.

In Romans, Paul writes that God holds each person accountable for what the know. Even those who have never heard the name of Christ can find salvation in Christ if they respond to what God has revealed to them. If a tribe in Africa has never heard, but listens to what nature teaches that there is one Creator of the universe, then God, through the grace found in Christ, will deliver them. If a baby or child does not have the mental capacity to understand and respond to the message, God will damn them to hell for dying an early death. We are saved through Christ by the grace of God. God's grace clearly extends to those who do not have the mental ability to hear and understand the word of God. Those who cannot understand cannot reject Christ. Thus, if an infant has not rejected Christ, then the infant will be welcomed into the eternal arms of the Father.

Baptists use the "age of accountability" to explain this. The term is not found in the Scripture, but the principal most certainly is. Other Christian traditions baptize infants recognizing that God's grace is upon them until they come of the age that they understand, are called by Christ and can then choose to follow that call, at which time their decision to follow Christ is publicly "confirmed" before the church.

But there is no Scriptural support to say that a child who dies before the time that the child can understand the message of Christ and either accept or reject the message will go to hell. None whatsoever. In the OT, God told Israel to kill every man woman and child of lands they occupied. This had nothing to do with eternal salvation. It had to do with God wanting Israel not to intermarry, thus he was removing the temptation.

Yes, the sins of fathers will impact future generations, but that is the consequences here on earth of sin, and has nothing to do with eternal damnation.

God absolutely loves children. Jesus welcomed children into his arms when the disciples thought they would bother Jesus. If the grace of God through Christ does not cover babies and young children, then there is no hope for any of us.

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In Acts 8:37, Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch that he could be baptized if he believed. I do believe a profession of faith is a prerequisite to anyone being baptized, otherwise Philip would not have spoke thus to the eunuch.

As to mutes professing, must the profession be an audible profession? They could easily sign (as a deaf person does) or they could write down their profession I would suppose.


Are you a member of the Church of Christ?

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In Acts 8:37, Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch that he could be baptized if he believed. I do believe a profession of faith is a prerequisite to anyone being baptized, otherwise Philip would not have spoke thus to the eunuch.

As to mutes professing, must the profession be an audible profession? They could easily sign (as a deaf person does) or they could write down their profession I would suppose.


We read in Romans 10:9,10 that both confession and belief are essential proponents the Salvation of a person.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Note that Paul said if thou shalt confess AND believe thou shalt be saved.

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You say the death of the infants in Hosea were because of the sins of others, yet that flies in the face of Scripture. The Law stated the children would not be put to death for their father's sins.


Yes, UNDER THE LAW no child is executed for the sins of the parents. Let me repeat - that is man's treatment of man under the law. God allows the punishment of sin to extend to the third and fourth generation. This is what we are talking about in Hosea 13. It is judgment upon a nation, and the resulting casualties to babies.

Ex. 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;"

As I said, I'll stick with the Bible on this one.


I wish you would. Where are the verses about babies going to Hell again?

Still waiting for the explanation on the Romans verses, you know, the ones that say that a baby doesn't have sin imputed unto it. Fifth time I've mentioned them now.

God bless.

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Yes, UNDER THE LAW no child is executed for the sins of the parents. Let me repeat - that is man's treatment of man under the law. God allows the punishment of sin to extend to the third and fourth generation. This is what we are talking about in Hosea 13. It is judgment upon a nation, and the resulting casualties to babies.

Ex. 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;"



I wish you would. Where are the verses about babies going to Hell again?

Still waiting for the explanation on the Romans verses, you know, the ones that say that a baby doesn't have sin imputed unto it. Fifth time I've mentioned them now.

God bless.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

If one of those wicked babies referred to by David in Psalm 53 were to die, he or she would be turned into hell as stated will happen in Psalm 9:17.

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Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

If one of those wicked babies referred to by David in Psalm 53 were to die, he or she would be turned into hell as stated will happen in Psalm 9:17.


Well, let's think about this. Does everyone that is wicked go to Hell? If you're saved, then you've admitted the fact that you are wicked, right? Well, according to Psalms 9:17 wicked people go to Hell - so shouldn't you?

You should, and I should too.

Psalms 9:17 isn't the only verse in the Bible though, thankfully. You see, I read in Romans (oh man, there's that New Testament book again!) that if I admit I'm a sinner and put my faith in Christ I can get out of it. In fact, the language that is used in Romans 4 is that sin won't be imputed to me. So, even though I am wicked, and I am a sinner, and I do deserve Hell - the sin I do after salvation is not imputed unto me.

Not imputed...

Not imputed...

Just like the babies in those two verses in Romans that I keep reminding you of and you keep ignoring.

Sixth time.

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Well, let's think about this. Does everyone that is wicked go to Hell? If you're saved, then you've admitted the fact that you are wicked, right? Well, according to Psalms 9:17 wicked people go to Hell - so shouldn't you?

You should, and I should too.

Psalms 9:17 isn't the only verse in the Bible though, thankfully. You see, I read in Romans (oh man, there's that New Testament book again!) that if I admit I'm a sinner and put my faith in Christ I can get out of it. In fact, the language that is used in Romans 4 is that sin won't be imputed to me. So, even though I am wicked, and I am a sinner, and I do deserve Hell - the sin I do after salvation is not imputed unto me.

Not imputed...

Not imputed...

Just like the babies in those two verses in Romans that I keep reminding you of and you keep ignoring.

Sixth time.

I am not wicked. I was before trusting Christ, but no more. God sees me as cleansed by His Son.

And I have not ignored the verses in Romans.

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I am not wicked. I was before trusting Christ, but no more. God sees me as cleansed by His Son.


I John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

And I have not ignored the verses in Romans.


My first post in this thread was a request for you to explain them, you haven't so far. They are critical to understanding the biblical doctrine of the Age of Accountability.

Seventh time.

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If an infant goes to hell when he or she dies, then God is not a just God.. I can imagine nothing more unjust than sending a baby into eternal damnation.

In Romans, Paul writes that God holds each person accountable for what the know. Even those who have never heard the name of Christ can find salvation in Christ if they respond to what God has revealed to them. If a tribe in Africa has never heard, but listens to what nature teaches that there is one Creator of the universe, then God, through the grace found in Christ, will deliver them. If a baby or child does not have the mental capacity to understand and respond to the message, God will damn them to hell for dying an early death. We are saved through Christ by the grace of God. God's grace clearly extends to those who do not have the mental ability to hear and understand the word of God. Those who cannot understand cannot reject Christ. Thus, if an infant has not rejected Christ, then the infant will be welcomed into the eternal arms of the Father.

Baptists use the "age of accountability" to explain this. The term is not found in the Scripture, but the principal most certainly is. Other Christian traditions baptize infants recognizing that God's grace is upon them until they come of the age that they understand, are called by Christ and can then choose to follow that call, at which time their decision to follow Christ is publicly "confirmed" before the church.

But there is no Scriptural support to say that a child who dies before the time that the child can understand the message of Christ and either accept or reject the message will go to hell. None whatsoever. In the OT, God told Israel to kill every man woman and child of lands they occupied. This had nothing to do with eternal salvation. It had to do with God wanting Israel not to intermarry, thus he was removing the temptation.

Yes, the sins of fathers will impact future generations, but that is the consequences here on earth of sin, and has nothing to do with eternal damnation.

God absolutely loves children. Jesus welcomed children into his arms when the disciples thought they would bother Jesus. If the grace of God through Christ does not cover babies and young children, then there is no hope for any of us.

The wicked shall be turned into hell; and all nations that forget God.
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies.

If a child is deemed to be wicked at birth (Psalm 58 indicates such is possible) and that wicked child dies in infancy, it will be turned into hell.

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A crazy teenage Fundamentalist's thoughts.

1. We all are sinners by nature and choice. We all agree to this. The Bible teaches this.

2. There's not really an age of accountability hinted at in the Bible.

3. About the only reference to matters such as this is the story of David and Bathsheba; that is, their son dying. David says he will go to him. What does this mean? It could just mean he will also die and be buried, but that seems unlikely. Now, before Christ was resurrected, everyone went to Sheol - the place of the dead. One side was for the unrighteous, unsaved, one side was for the righteous, saved (see the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus). OBviously, David would not be going to the place of the wicked. All souls must go somewhere, so it logically follows, assuming David comforted himself with these words, that the child went to Abraham's Bosom, as it is called (again, see the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus).

4. To say children can believe/sin seems a bit of a...stretch. No doubt, we have heard of children being saved even at three years of age, but infants? One month, two months? There doesn't seem to really be any Scriptural support for that.

5. This has been mentioned, but I will say it again: God is perfect, holy, and just in all things, so we need not worry.

Feliz Navidad!
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

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I John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."



My first post in this thread was a request for you to explain them, you haven't so far. They are critical to understanding the biblical doctrine of the Age of Accountability.

Seventh time.

John did not say "if we say we are not wicked..."
God no longer sees us as wicked who are Christ's.

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John did not say "if we say we are not wicked..."
God no longer sees us as wicked who are Christ's.


So you're basing this whole elaborate doctrine the difference between being a sinner who's saved and being wicked and saved? If you stretch it any further it's ganna snap and put someone's eye out!

Still waiting for the explanation on the Romans verses, that clearly teach the doctine of the Age of Accountability.

Eighth time.

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A crazy teenage Fundamentalist's thoughts.

1. We all are sinners by nature and choice. We all agree to this. The Bible teaches this.

2. There's not really an age of accountability hinted at in the Bible.

3. About the only reference to matters such as this is the story of David and Bathsheba; that is, their son dying. David says he will go to him. What does this mean? It could just mean he will also die and be buried, but that seems unlikely. Now, before Christ was resurrected, everyone went to Sheol - the place of the dead. One side was for the unrighteous, unsaved, one side was for the righteous, saved (see the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus). OBviously, David would not be going to the place of the wicked. All souls must go somewhere, so it logically follows, assuming David comforted himself with these words, that the child went to Abraham's Bosom, as it is called (again, see the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus).

4. To say children can believe/sin seems a bit of a...stretch. No doubt, we have heard of children being saved even at three years of age, but infants? One month, two months? There doesn't seem to really be any Scriptural support for that.

5. This has been mentioned, but I will say it again: God is perfect, holy, and just in all things, so we need not worry.

Feliz Navidad!
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

Psalm 58:3 seems to say that there are infants born wicked. When those wicked die? Will God allow the wicked into Heaven? Not according to His Perfect Word.

There are four verses in the Bible where heaven and wicked are mentioned in the same verse. One of which is in your signature. Note that it says they must turn from their wicked ways before God will hear them Not one of those verses, nor their context, show the wicked received into heaven. Proverbs contrasts the wicked with the righteous. It is the Righteous who are accepted of God... but not of their own righteousness. They must be clothed in God's righteousness. The wicked are said to be consumed in God's wrath and cast into hell..

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

God's Word tells us the wicked will be turned into hell. We cannot justify the wicked... even if it is shown to be an infant.

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So you're basing this whole elaborate doctrine the difference between being a sinner who's saved and being wicked and saved? If you stretch it any further it's ganna snap and put someone's eye out!

Still waiting for the explanation on the Romans verses, that clearly teach the doctine of the Age of Accountability.

Eighth time.


Calm down brother. :icon_mrgreen:

Once saved, we are no longer wicked. We are righteous in the eyes of God. We can, and do, still sin, but we are no longer wicked.

I don't see how those verses in Romans teach an age of accountability. Those same verses have been used to proclaim that had God not revealed His law to us, there would be no penalty for sin. In this, they point out God's law for Adam and Eve was very limited, yet they knew it. From that time forward man has known of the law so man has been under the penalty of the law. From this understanding, those verses have nothing to do with an age of accountability, but shows that we have no excuse before God, no grounds to expect that our sins won't count against us.

Some folks, for various reasons, never reach an "age of accountability".

Scripture doesn't tell us what becomes of babies and young children who die. However, Scripture does tell us enough of the charactor of God to know whatever He does with them is the right thing and that none of us know better than God regardless of what He does.

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Psalm 58:3 seems to say that there are infants born wicked. When those wicked die? Will God allow the wicked into Heaven? Not according to His Perfect Word.

There are four verses in the Bible where heaven and wicked are mentioned in the same verse. One of which is in your signature. Note that it says they must turn from their wicked ways before God will hear them Not one of those verses, nor their context, show the wicked received into heaven. Proverbs contrasts the wicked with the righteous. It is the Righteous who are accepted of God... but not of their own righteousness. They must be clothed in God's righteousness. The wicked are said to be consumed in God's wrath and cast into hell..

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

God's Word tells us the wicked will be turned into hell. We cannot justify the wicked... even if it is shown to be an infant.


You are basing your entire theology on Psalm 58.3, which is poetry. It is not written literally. It is figurative language written by David expressing his raw emotions about the wickedness of his enemies.

Babies are in no way, shape or form wicked,. A god who sees infants as wicked is not a God I want to serve. Babies are a gift from God. They are innocent and pure. They have a sin nature, but they have no knowledge of sin. They cannot unerstand or comprehend.

As I said, if the grace of God through Christ cannot bring salvation to a baby, then there is no hope for any of us. What do you say about Romans where Paul writes that those who have no knowledge of Christ can have salvation if they follow what God has revealed to them? Babies have no way of knowing and udnerstanding sin and Christ. God will hold them responsible for what they know...and that is nothing...they will be seen as blameless and pure before God.

May God remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

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