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Sometimes It's Heaven, Sometimes It's Hell


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You did not see nor hear me say that infants were incapable of sinning. Its they are not accountable, thanks to God's grace because they do not have the ability to realize, reason, to make necessary decisions.


You are dead on correct - babies do sin, but nowhere in Scripture are they held accountable for it.
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God uses the word "Therefore" in Hosea 13. He says, "Therefore, I will be unto them as a lion..." From verse 7 forward, God is decreeing (some say it is not a decree, but I believe it is) that which will befall wicked Samaria. It is because of the abominations that they have committed. I will be as a lion... I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. The wrath against the adults of Samaria, as well against the infants, is God's wrath.

Why so fierce against infants who, some claim, could not have sinned? Why such wrath against infants who are accepted of God? Makes no sense whatsoever.

To think God, in His fierce anger, decreed that infants would be dashed to pieces because of the wickedness of Samaria, and then lovingly take them into0 heaven is preposterous.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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What must one do in order to be assured of heaven? Is there only One Way to heaven or are there two...three...more?
Many ways to heaven, but only one way will guarantee one not being tossed out.. That way is through the Door.

John 10:1-2 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a rOBber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Notice Jesus implied that one could enter another way, but would be seen as a thief and a rOBber. My Bible tells me thieves won't be welcome there. Thieves usually try to gain entrance through other means than the front door. If a thief enters in by any other way, he will fall into the hands of the living God... God will judge such as do not come through faith in Jesus as thieves and rOBbers and will thrust them out.

Also, Jesus did not say "I am a way," no, He said, "I AM THE WAY."

To hear some, one would think all one needed to do is be born into this world and that one would be assured of eternal life. Yet, Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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You are misapplying Psm 58:3. When is the last time you heard any new born baby speaking at all, much less telling lies? A new born baby is not lost since it can not sin.

Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.
I say Scripture is silent for the same reason that Rick can say, "Nowhere in Scripture are infants held accountable for their sin." Also, nowhere in Scripture are we told that infants are NOT spiritually dead, sinful beings, either. We are not told about any "age of accountability" or of "God's grace covering infants." It's just not there. Edited by Annie
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Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.


Excellent post Annie!
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Are we condemned to hell only because we personally choose to sin? Or is it because we have inherited Adam's nature--IOW, we are born sinful beings, separated from God? Both, you might say, since one (personally sinning) is an inevitable result of the other (inheriting Adam's curse). Yes, but does that necessarily mean we are heaven-bound until we choose to sin (or until we "know" we are sinning--and when is that)? And, when is a person capable of choosing to sin? Is the temper tantrum of a six month old "sin"? Sinful beings cannot enter heaven, as we know, since God is holy. The only remedy given for sin is belief in Christ.

Something completely absent from Scripture is any sentimentality regarding infants. We look at a baby and say, "How precious....just look at that innocent wee one! How could this adorable widdle ting be anything but sugar and spice and everything nice?" We have taken cues from our overly sentimental culture...the enhanced photos (think Anne Geddes), the greeting cards, the adorable baby accessories, the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, as a mom of five truly precious ones, I can understand sentimentality, believe me! But God is clearly not sentimental. He doesn't "love" us in sentimental ways. He doesn't view "innocence" the same way we do. As Scripture says, "In Adam, we all die." IOW, we're born spiritually dead and must be "made alive" in Christ. We aren't born spiritually neutral; the Bible is clear on this, and Pelagius (who advanced the "spiritually neutral" view) was rightly denounced as a heretic.

As I've contemplated this issue over the years (as a loving mother of infants), I've come to a few conclusions, and still have plenty of questions that I don't think can ever be answered.

Conclusions:
God is just, and God is loving. He is also sovereign over all.
We cannot understand His ways.
We must trust Him to do the just, right, and loving thing with regard to this issue. We cannot know for sure what that just, right, and loving thing is, because our understanding is so limited. (We can't even understand how human volition interacts with God's sovereignty--that's why "Calvinists" and "Arminians" have debated through the centuries--and that's just the starting point of this complex issue.)
Since Scripture is silent on this issue*, we (again) must be satisfied to TRUST!

*I know what David said about his baby, and do not think that statement has anything to do with infants going to heaven. Roman 1 seems to leave a "loophole"--are there some that are not "without excuse" because they don't understand? I don't know...but it's a pretty faint and shaky non-statement on which to build a case.
I say Scripture is silent for the same reason that Rick can say, "Nowhere in Scripture are infants held accountable for their sin." Also, nowhere in Scripture are we told that infants are NOT spiritually dead, sinful beings, either. We are not told about any "age of accountability" or of "God's grace covering infants." It's just not there.



The Bible says that a mature Christian can discern between what is good and what is evil. Hebrews 5:14
We can even have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
The Bible says that the SOUL that sinneth..it shall die Ezekiel 18:4,20
A baby has not sinned yet.........Romans 9:11
The "angels" of each and every one of them behold His face, my friend........Matthew 18:10 Edited by heartstrings
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Romans 9:11 does not say that a baby who has been born has not or cannot sin.

Romans 9 is about nations, not about individual infants. But even if it were about infants, it still would not be talking about newborn infants or forward in their infancy.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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The Bible says that a mature Christian can discern between what is good and what is evil. Hebrews 5:14

So, how does that verse apply to this discussion? We're not talking about good and evil here.

We can even have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16

Again, how does this statement apply to this discussion? Does it mean that we can know everything? Does "having the mind of Christ" mean that we know everything Christ does (IOW, that we are omniscient)? If not, what is your point?

The Bible says that the SOUL that sinneth..it shall die Ezekiel 18:4,20

I detest "proof texting wars." You cannot pull one verse out of context, ignore the rest of Scripture ("In Adam, we all die," etc.), and say, "Well, folks, that wraps that up."

A baby has not sinned yet.........Romans 9:11

That's not what this verse says. I tend to agree that babies have not sinned volitionally/knowingly...but they are born depraved. They are children of Adam. Therefore, they are not "innocent."

The "angels" of each and every one of them behold His face, my friend........Matthew 18:10

What exactly does that mean? About whom is Jesus speaking (see verse 6)? And what does it have to do with this discussion?

Please know that I'm not taking sides in this discussion...I just really think the evidence for any side ("babies always go to heaven," "babies never go to heaven," "some babies go to heaven") is too scanty to make any dogmatic statements. Hey, I'd LOVE to believe that babies go to heaven. But Scripture is silent, or at least ambiguous, which is borne out by the fact that different people come to different conclusions, based mostly on their understanding and perspective of soteriology. (Calvinists, who place more emphasis on the sovereignty of God, would say that only babies who are part of the elect go to heaven; Arminians, who place more emphasis on human volition, understanding, and action, would tend to say that since a baby isn't able to choose for himself, he cannot be held responsible for his depravity.) Edited by Annie
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Have you ever seen a baby cry and them the father or mother go pick the baby up and instantly its happy as can be?

Did this baby cry because it was hungry?
Did it cry because it had a messy diaper?
Did it cry because it was sick?

No, it simply cried for it knew if it acted as if it was hungry, sick, or had a messy diaper someone would come pick it up giving it attention. In other words it lied in order to get attention.

And of course there is the case of the little four year old that knocked the lamp over and it broke, yet the 4 year old told its mother, I didn't do that.

Them there is the four year old that knew better than to get in the cookie jar, yet on entering the kitchen his mother saw him standing on a chair with his hand in the cookie jar.

Yes, all humans are capable of sin, yet some teach that young humans are born perfect and each human falls on its own. Yet that is not what the bible teaches

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners,

The Bible teaches that sin enter by one man, and by that one man all inherited what we refer to as the sin nature.

Thankfully Jesus did not inherit this sin nature, for He did not have an earthly father to pass it on to Him, and so Jesus became the perfect sacrifice, and thanks to God's mercy and grace we can be saved and not have to pay our own sin debt by spending eternty in the lake of fire.

And again, thanks to God's mercy and grace the young human that cannot discern such things their sin is not held against them until they reach the point of understanding, as has been pointed out several times.

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And again, thanks to God's mercy and grace the young human that cannot discern such things their sin is not held against them until they reach the point of understanding, as has been pointed out several times.

Jerry, what Scripture teaches this concept?
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Scripture teaches clearly there is only one way to heaven, and that through being born again in Christ. Does Scripture contradict this anywhere by saying there are other ways for some?

John 3:3-6 (King James Version)

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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Jerry, what Scripture teaches this concept?



There is about 6 pages of post under this topic, and some of the post spell this out with verses included, many of them written by Rick. Your more than welcome to go back and read them. Plus there was one who argued against this in nearly everyone of his post.

Why, do you believe that young children, infants, that die before they are old enough to understand that they are sinner, unable to accept Jesus as Savior, are sent to hell?

And of course we have the very clear teachings of David and his son.
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PrOBably because of Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus in John 3.

I find it hard to believe that God allows one to enter heaven who does not have faith in light of that discourse. Jesus said unless on is born of the water and of the Spirit, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He puts all mankind into two categories... those who believe, and those who believe not. He never mentions a third option, those who are incapable of believing. That is a man-made doctrine.

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